Women in authority?
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Romanseight2005
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Acts 2:17-18
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams :
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
KJV
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Shredhead
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Respectfully , I must disagree , v 14 explains why women shouldn't be placed in authority over men , as far as the Church is concerned .
This translation is quite misleading , v12 may as well read " I { Paul } do not do not permit the Church to teach , or have authority over Christ " . How could the Church have authority over Christ ? If it did , it wouldn't be the Church , & God wouldn't be God . It would also mean that Paul , has a greater authority than God , as Paul , is allowing or disallowing .
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Stinker
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I have heard conservatve preachers make the claim that Paul is really saying here that women are saved from their sins the same way Eve was. Through a woman (Mary) giving birth to Jesus, who later saved/saves everyone who comes to Him. This kind of interpretation is a real, real, stretch though. It means maternal duties in the Koine Greek Language.
Though this 1st century writing may not harmonize with our present New Testament, however it does show how women back then were viewed:
"Let Mary go away from us, because women are not worthy of life." Jesus says; "Lo, I shall lead her in order to make her a male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven."
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sandman
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In my first post I decided not to post this so as not to throw this thread off track
..since its of track now, I am posting. Due to the length I will separate these by the two verses.
We need to keep both Timothy and Corinthians within the context of which they were written.
I Timothy is a pastoral epistle written to the leadership in the church {note: when I use the word church I am speaking of the ekklesia the called of God, the body of Christ, not a structure.} Therefore when reading this book we must keep in mind who it is addressing, and why. We cannot take a few verses out of their context and make them a general application to all women within the body of Christ; that is just poor workmanship of rightly dividing the Word.
We must also keep in mind cultural times. Here in Timothy, as well as I Corinthians 14:34 {dealing with the wives of the prophets} you have cultural standards that come into play.
Timothy is dealing with the leadership in the church, and specifically these verses in question are dealing with wives of the men of God in the leadership positions responsible for teaching, and moving Gods word. We must read and understand these verses in that light, and not wretch them out of context to degrade women as some groups have done.
The whole context dictates that the men (husbands) were men of God with ministries as seen in 3:1 which is the more immediate context of these verses; ultimately it comes down to respect of the Word.
The following is a break-down of verses 9-15 I will post on I Corinthians separately
I Timothy 2:9-15
I Timothy 2:9 In like manner or likewise. You have to go back to verse 8 to find out what its referring to. Talking about husbands who were men of God praying everyplace lifting up holy hands is a Figure of speech meaning To have done all that can be done speaking of the men of God praying in the previous verses. It now shifts to the women in doing all they can do.
The word also is not in any critical Greek text.
That women (Gr) gunê = wives henceforth, the word woman is translated wives
adorn themselves (Gr) kosmeo it is the word transliterated over into our English as cosmos It means orderly universe. To polish, or to beautifully cut out to carve in all perfection. Orderly like the stars that are set in their coarse, and like the paths of the seas, no collision. Its like all of Gods creation; thats this word adorn.
{Other usages of kosmeo Luke 21:5, Titus 2:10, I Peter 3:3-5}
in modest apparel (Gr) kosmias the same root word as adorn.
Women are to adorn themselves adorningly {thats probably not a real word} meaning well polished beautifully groomed, is the essence of what God is saying. It sets the woman with the man of God in all of its beauty and all of its greatness.
{I Timothy 3: 2 of good behaviour is the same word as kosmios}
With shamefacedness (Gr) aidôs = an inner grace. Manifesting the inner beauty of Christ in you, in your walk, your talk, and your manner of dress. One who recoils at anything unseemly, immoral or impure.
Sobriety ( Gr) sôphrosunê is self-restraint, habitual inner self-governing its the renewed mind dignified walk. Being an example in your walk because that man of God is your man, and you by your actions show the rest of the women in the household of God how they are to act or walk.
not is conditional .due to culture, the walk of a woman would vary.
broided hair(Gr) plegma hair-doo or gold, or pearls, or costly array
One example of this refers women who would have their hair put in the form of the temple, a horn or a tube that would go around the head made of gold studded with precious jewels. This would tie underneath the chin and over the top of the hair. At the back they would have braided cords of silk that would drop to the back of the knees, and at the bottom of those would be tassels of red silk, loaded with lead so the hair style would be tightened under the chin. ouch!
Verse 10
But Sets in contrast that which was preceding {broided hair, etc}
which becoumeth women wives of the men of God
professing(Gr) epaggellomai To announce ones self
godliness = Wives showing themselves reverently godly, that is how you announce yourself. Wives are attractively dressed, sharp, cultured, but not to the end that youre a knock out, or drawing attention to yourself through your costly array.
with good works This Greek preposition indicates with as all the way through, not just the manner of dress, but the actions in your life. Doing what has just been stated, thats the good works.
Verse 11
Let the woman = wife of the man of God.
learn = to be informed, to understand to learn by study and observation.
in silence (Gr) hesuchia means inner awareness, a quietness, tranquillity. Its just the opposite of vociferous.
There is a time for a person to keep quiet and a time to speak. The context here is talking about wives of the men of God. With that inner awareness you will know when that time and palace is.
with all subjection = submission by loving obedience.
When the woman decided to marry the man she made a decision that the man would be the head of her, like God would be the head of the man. The wife has to become aware of the inner awareness of her man, just as the man is with God.
Verse 12
but is the word and
i suffer (Gr) epitrepo means to direct, or instruct
not a woman = wives
to teach (Gr) didaske to debate. We get our word teacher from this Greek word. Its used in the academic realm of a didactic coarse [a teaching coarse] But here is the beauty of this scripture. In our teaching methods there is no debate, but in the old Hebrew or the synagogue operation, anytime a teacher teaches, anybody who wants to get up and question him can do so. {God says - I instruct the wife not to debate in public with her man of God.} You can obviously see where this would belittle the man, showing great disrespect to the man of God, and the Word of God
nor = and not {emphatic}
to usurp authority over = to exercise power over, domineer.
the man = husband
but to be in silence same word as in verse 11. the inner awareness.
Verse 13
For Adam was first formed then Eve Adam was given authority and Eve was given to Adam as a companion. This doesnt degrade the woman but rather just puts it in the order, which God formed, made, and created us.
Verse 14
And Adam was not deceived
But the woman {wife} being deceived = taken in, literally means baited by false statements which the adversary laid on her in Genesis. Gods just saying, look things havent changed, the adversary is still trying to pull the same stunts. That is why that word hesuchia {that inner awareness} is so vitally important in a womans walk, so that the woman is not trying to usurp authority over the man.
was in the
transgression stepping aside from doing right. Even though Adam wasnt deceived, it was because she was his companion, and when she was baited he went down to her level. This will generally always be true with a man.
Verse 15
Notwithstanding = but
She shall be saved (Gr) sozo = made whole, made complete,
in = through
childbearing On the surface it looks like childbearing is a curse, but actually she {the wife} shall be made complete, whole, through childbearing.
{Guys will not understand that, but women will}
If they - The husband and wife.
Continue in en - governs only the dative case and denotes being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest and continuance.
Faith = (Gr) pistis - noun = the divinely implanted principle. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. This particular form is not the action of believing, but the firm persuasion or conviction of what we hear from Gods word.
And charity = (Gr) agapê We all know this as being the love of God, but this love goes so much further than that which was known in the OT. Its a spontaneous love irrespective of rights. Its love in its fullest conceivable form, and beyond.
And holiness - as becoming to the husband and wife as devoted to God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both the roll of the Man and the Woman should be kept in the perspective of the Word. {marriage relationship, and leadership relationship}
As for Women teaching in the Church, I find nothing in the Word that specifically disallows that; again kept within the perspective and boundaries of written Word.
We need to keep both Timothy and Corinthians within the context of which they were written.
I Timothy is a pastoral epistle written to the leadership in the church {note: when I use the word church I am speaking of the ekklesia the called of God, the body of Christ, not a structure.} Therefore when reading this book we must keep in mind who it is addressing, and why. We cannot take a few verses out of their context and make them a general application to all women within the body of Christ; that is just poor workmanship of rightly dividing the Word.
We must also keep in mind cultural times. Here in Timothy, as well as I Corinthians 14:34 {dealing with the wives of the prophets} you have cultural standards that come into play.
Timothy is dealing with the leadership in the church, and specifically these verses in question are dealing with wives of the men of God in the leadership positions responsible for teaching, and moving Gods word. We must read and understand these verses in that light, and not wretch them out of context to degrade women as some groups have done.
The whole context dictates that the men (husbands) were men of God with ministries as seen in 3:1 which is the more immediate context of these verses; ultimately it comes down to respect of the Word.
The following is a break-down of verses 9-15 I will post on I Corinthians separately
I Timothy 2:9-15
I Timothy 2:9 In like manner or likewise. You have to go back to verse 8 to find out what its referring to. Talking about husbands who were men of God praying everyplace lifting up holy hands is a Figure of speech meaning To have done all that can be done speaking of the men of God praying in the previous verses. It now shifts to the women in doing all they can do.
The word also is not in any critical Greek text.
That women (Gr) gunê = wives henceforth, the word woman is translated wives
adorn themselves (Gr) kosmeo it is the word transliterated over into our English as cosmos It means orderly universe. To polish, or to beautifully cut out to carve in all perfection. Orderly like the stars that are set in their coarse, and like the paths of the seas, no collision. Its like all of Gods creation; thats this word adorn.
{Other usages of kosmeo Luke 21:5, Titus 2:10, I Peter 3:3-5}
in modest apparel (Gr) kosmias the same root word as adorn.
Women are to adorn themselves adorningly {thats probably not a real word} meaning well polished beautifully groomed, is the essence of what God is saying. It sets the woman with the man of God in all of its beauty and all of its greatness.
{I Timothy 3: 2 of good behaviour is the same word as kosmios}
With shamefacedness (Gr) aidôs = an inner grace. Manifesting the inner beauty of Christ in you, in your walk, your talk, and your manner of dress. One who recoils at anything unseemly, immoral or impure.
Sobriety ( Gr) sôphrosunê is self-restraint, habitual inner self-governing its the renewed mind dignified walk. Being an example in your walk because that man of God is your man, and you by your actions show the rest of the women in the household of God how they are to act or walk.
not is conditional .due to culture, the walk of a woman would vary.
broided hair(Gr) plegma hair-doo or gold, or pearls, or costly array
One example of this refers women who would have their hair put in the form of the temple, a horn or a tube that would go around the head made of gold studded with precious jewels. This would tie underneath the chin and over the top of the hair. At the back they would have braided cords of silk that would drop to the back of the knees, and at the bottom of those would be tassels of red silk, loaded with lead so the hair style would be tightened under the chin. ouch!
Verse 10
But Sets in contrast that which was preceding {broided hair, etc}
which becoumeth women wives of the men of God
professing(Gr) epaggellomai To announce ones self
godliness = Wives showing themselves reverently godly, that is how you announce yourself. Wives are attractively dressed, sharp, cultured, but not to the end that youre a knock out, or drawing attention to yourself through your costly array.
with good works This Greek preposition indicates with as all the way through, not just the manner of dress, but the actions in your life. Doing what has just been stated, thats the good works.
Verse 11
Let the woman = wife of the man of God.
learn = to be informed, to understand to learn by study and observation.
in silence (Gr) hesuchia means inner awareness, a quietness, tranquillity. Its just the opposite of vociferous.
There is a time for a person to keep quiet and a time to speak. The context here is talking about wives of the men of God. With that inner awareness you will know when that time and palace is.
with all subjection = submission by loving obedience.
When the woman decided to marry the man she made a decision that the man would be the head of her, like God would be the head of the man. The wife has to become aware of the inner awareness of her man, just as the man is with God.
Verse 12
but is the word and
i suffer (Gr) epitrepo means to direct, or instruct
not a woman = wives
to teach (Gr) didaske to debate. We get our word teacher from this Greek word. Its used in the academic realm of a didactic coarse [a teaching coarse] But here is the beauty of this scripture. In our teaching methods there is no debate, but in the old Hebrew or the synagogue operation, anytime a teacher teaches, anybody who wants to get up and question him can do so. {God says - I instruct the wife not to debate in public with her man of God.} You can obviously see where this would belittle the man, showing great disrespect to the man of God, and the Word of God
nor = and not {emphatic}
to usurp authority over = to exercise power over, domineer.
the man = husband
but to be in silence same word as in verse 11. the inner awareness.
Verse 13
For Adam was first formed then Eve Adam was given authority and Eve was given to Adam as a companion. This doesnt degrade the woman but rather just puts it in the order, which God formed, made, and created us.
Verse 14
And Adam was not deceived
But the woman {wife} being deceived = taken in, literally means baited by false statements which the adversary laid on her in Genesis. Gods just saying, look things havent changed, the adversary is still trying to pull the same stunts. That is why that word hesuchia {that inner awareness} is so vitally important in a womans walk, so that the woman is not trying to usurp authority over the man.
was in the
transgression stepping aside from doing right. Even though Adam wasnt deceived, it was because she was his companion, and when she was baited he went down to her level. This will generally always be true with a man.
Verse 15
Notwithstanding = but
She shall be saved (Gr) sozo = made whole, made complete,
in = through
childbearing On the surface it looks like childbearing is a curse, but actually she {the wife} shall be made complete, whole, through childbearing.
{Guys will not understand that, but women will}
If they - The husband and wife.
Continue in en - governs only the dative case and denotes being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest and continuance.
Faith = (Gr) pistis - noun = the divinely implanted principle. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. This particular form is not the action of believing, but the firm persuasion or conviction of what we hear from Gods word.
And charity = (Gr) agapê We all know this as being the love of God, but this love goes so much further than that which was known in the OT. Its a spontaneous love irrespective of rights. Its love in its fullest conceivable form, and beyond.
And holiness - as becoming to the husband and wife as devoted to God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both the roll of the Man and the Woman should be kept in the perspective of the Word. {marriage relationship, and leadership relationship}
As for Women teaching in the Church, I find nothing in the Word that specifically disallows that; again kept within the perspective and boundaries of written Word.
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sandman
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I Corinthians 14: 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Again this is dealing with wives in the eastern culture, and the setting that took place. The setting is where men would sit on one side and women on the other of the room after the teaching. The men would discuss/debate what was taught. Remember that word didaske to debate
Interruptions were obviously taking place during that time from the wives to necessitate God having this written {now remember this is not a large church structure; keep in mind the times. The churches were the group settings (i.e.) home fellowships as dictated in the book of Acts} All that God was saying was hold your opinion/discussion until you get home.
Also the books of Corinthians is a correctional Epistle to show believers where they were off track, from not following the doctrine laid out in Romans, Ephesians, and Thessalonians.
Neither of these accounts In Timothy and Corinthians applies to all women, but as you can see it did apply to these specific settings and does apply to similar settings for obvious reasons.
Can woman teach the Word absolutely! Can married woman teach the Word .. absolutely within the confines of the written Word; which is proper arrangement between a husband and wife.
For example: {1st century home fellowship setting} the husband says. hey babe ( they used that word a lot) you really seem to have a grasp on this holy spirit stuff , would you mind teaching tonight and she replies: oh sure darling, oh love of my life, I am honored that you would ask; you truly are the head of the household, what a man, what a leader .would you like a back rub tonight after I press and lay out your robe for tomorrow. a little over embellished maybe
Lets take another example:{21st century:} A single woman is coordinating a home fellowship; she meets her knight in shining armor (thats the whole armor of God) they decide to take the plunge. The proper arrangement at that point would be that the man would become head of that home fellowship, assuming he was spiritually capable; they would become a team. {Personal note: if the guy is not spiritually capable dont expect to change him or for him to change in other words think twice before you get married}
In essence, the written Word does not squelch the ability for woman to preach or teach. I know, and have known some absolutely wonderful committed women of God with gift ministries. When these women were married, their priorities changed; which is biblically accurate. The word used in Ephesians is called submission, which is: loving obedience, by proper arrangement, and deliberate decision. This simply means when the woman decides by her free will to marry, the proper arrangement is that the husband becomes head of the household; {not a dictator} it means he lovingly guides and directs.
The only time usurping authority comes into play is when the Word deals with wives of the men of God in specific situations.
Should a woman elect not to get married there is no restrictions on her priorities for serving the Lord, teaching and preaching Word. The only restrictions that exist would be in the mind of those who disagree with the written Word; the ones who think women should not preach But who really looses in that case is those who will not accept the truth. I think it is abundantly clear when we look at scripture that God has no problem with women preaching the Word.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Again this is dealing with wives in the eastern culture, and the setting that took place. The setting is where men would sit on one side and women on the other of the room after the teaching. The men would discuss/debate what was taught. Remember that word didaske to debate
Interruptions were obviously taking place during that time from the wives to necessitate God having this written {now remember this is not a large church structure; keep in mind the times. The churches were the group settings (i.e.) home fellowships as dictated in the book of Acts} All that God was saying was hold your opinion/discussion until you get home.
Also the books of Corinthians is a correctional Epistle to show believers where they were off track, from not following the doctrine laid out in Romans, Ephesians, and Thessalonians.
Neither of these accounts In Timothy and Corinthians applies to all women, but as you can see it did apply to these specific settings and does apply to similar settings for obvious reasons.
Can woman teach the Word absolutely! Can married woman teach the Word .. absolutely within the confines of the written Word; which is proper arrangement between a husband and wife.
For example: {1st century home fellowship setting} the husband says. hey babe ( they used that word a lot) you really seem to have a grasp on this holy spirit stuff , would you mind teaching tonight and she replies: oh sure darling, oh love of my life, I am honored that you would ask; you truly are the head of the household, what a man, what a leader .would you like a back rub tonight after I press and lay out your robe for tomorrow. a little over embellished maybe
Lets take another example:{21st century:} A single woman is coordinating a home fellowship; she meets her knight in shining armor (thats the whole armor of God) they decide to take the plunge. The proper arrangement at that point would be that the man would become head of that home fellowship, assuming he was spiritually capable; they would become a team. {Personal note: if the guy is not spiritually capable dont expect to change him or for him to change in other words think twice before you get married}
In essence, the written Word does not squelch the ability for woman to preach or teach. I know, and have known some absolutely wonderful committed women of God with gift ministries. When these women were married, their priorities changed; which is biblically accurate. The word used in Ephesians is called submission, which is: loving obedience, by proper arrangement, and deliberate decision. This simply means when the woman decides by her free will to marry, the proper arrangement is that the husband becomes head of the household; {not a dictator} it means he lovingly guides and directs.
The only time usurping authority comes into play is when the Word deals with wives of the men of God in specific situations.
Should a woman elect not to get married there is no restrictions on her priorities for serving the Lord, teaching and preaching Word. The only restrictions that exist would be in the mind of those who disagree with the written Word; the ones who think women should not preach But who really looses in that case is those who will not accept the truth. I think it is abundantly clear when we look at scripture that God has no problem with women preaching the Word.
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FLANDIDLYANDERS
When I am slain may my corpse lie facing the Enemy
'Having authority over' is a ridiculous phrase for a servant.
Earlier it was claimed that the world of church leadership is personal and intimately connected to God. Which is true, but it was implied that business and state is not. It is this dychotomy that is sinful. While it offers a convenient excuse to invoke sexist voodoo within church leadership, it diminishes the life of the church in the world.
To claim that life inherently excludes God while church leadership doesnt is dogmatic dualism. IMO.
It is sad that we have to offer indepth scholarly exegesis to provide Biblical support for something as basic as equality. In support of something that works in practise; women in leadership, in the world and the church. Infact, it would be safer to suggest that it is the men in charge that have caused all the rubbish in the world and church in the first place!
Earlier it was claimed that the world of church leadership is personal and intimately connected to God. Which is true, but it was implied that business and state is not. It is this dychotomy that is sinful. While it offers a convenient excuse to invoke sexist voodoo within church leadership, it diminishes the life of the church in the world.
To claim that life inherently excludes God while church leadership doesnt is dogmatic dualism. IMO.
It is sad that we have to offer indepth scholarly exegesis to provide Biblical support for something as basic as equality. In support of something that works in practise; women in leadership, in the world and the church. Infact, it would be safer to suggest that it is the men in charge that have caused all the rubbish in the world and church in the first place!
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April Angel
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But that would be too simplistic. I can think of at least one world-wide tragedy resulting in the loss of millions of lives which can be attributed to the female sex. It's not rocket science.
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LJSGM
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I have to agree with this and I was going to bring this up next.
I don't understand why people think that to have "power and authority" means power and authority to rule over other people. This was not the "power and authority" that we have been given. Our power and authority is spiritual, over the dark forces, powers and prinipalities, and also the power and annoiting in gifts of the Holy Spirit and love. The church today follows the example of the power and authority that is in the world.
I don't think that men would be so intimidated by women having and exerising the true spiritual power and authority that all have been given in Christ when born again. I tend to shy away from ANYONE, man or woman that tries to RULE OVER me instead of simply being a leader and servant to their fellow christians.
We should all be in submission and subjection to each other, and have Christ as our spiritual head.
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FLANDIDLYANDERS
When I am slain may my corpse lie facing the Enemy
Agreed.
It is a truism that if you want someone to listen to you, listen to them. If you want someone to do what you ask, do what they ask.
It is a truism that if you want someone to listen to you, listen to them. If you want someone to do what you ask, do what they ask.
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Shredhead
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I don't agree with "ruling over" others , but I do agree with leadership within the Body . You'll notice that Paul , was chosen by the elders , he didn't just stick his hand up & say " pick me " , or " this is what I want to do " , he was submitted to the leadership . God has structured the Body ,with Him as the Head . But He's also appointed others to lead , actually instructed pastors to " feed the flock " . The trouble comes when "leadership" goes to the head , & that leader becomes unapproachable or uncorrectable .
I don't think it's a matter of being intimidated , I think it's more to do with the plan God has given us & SOME women choking on the idea of being submissive . Look at Miriam , Moses' sister , " do we not hear from God too " .
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April Angel
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Abortion.
But, in particular, those which were carried out after 12 weeks gestation, when the infant had started moving. How could they do it?
I mean, I can understand, for convenience sake, that they might want to have the 'procedure' in early pregnancy because the unborn human is not fully formed but, what I cannot understand is how they can do it when the baby has started moving and is fully formed.
I recall a woman who, at the age of 40+ years, desperately wanted a baby so she got pregnant, only to find during the 20 week scan that the baby had Down's syndrome. She had that baby removed from her uterus. Then she got pregnant again. The same thing happened. She waited for the 20 week scan, found it had Down's syndrome and had that one removed too. A third time she got pregnant, had a scan at 20 weeks and was back requesting an abortion. There has got to be something wrong with that.
Yes, I am aware that they do the testing earlier these days, but that does not give those three unborn babies their lives back. Who are we to decide that they should not be born? It is God, the Creator's decision, not ours.
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LJSGM
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One has to ask then, what is leadership and how much control does it exercise over other people in the church? Does the leader have control over what others believe? How about control over what they do? How does one know who is annoited by God to lead TODAY? Is it by having a degree from some college? (Each of the apostles had the common factor of being annoited to lead directly by Jesus himself, then they picked elders and deacon, ect. We don't have this today) I know that these questions have been addressed in each individual church, but I believe in home fellowships, so what does a leader then do within the home? keep the time orderly? Keep things in order? Minister to each other? Sure. And when you throw out all of the "other" stuff, such as heirarcy, mortgages, and degree qualifications, and unnessasary formalities, then one doesn't even have to ask the question, are women allowed to serve and minister? Of course they are. I think the best home ministery is when the husband and wife minister together as a team. If they can not minister together, then neither one probably should be leading the group. There are lots of question posed in my mind. What is the REAL objection to women serving in the church as elders or deacon, ect.?
But the bible says that we should submit to one another, and men choke on this as well. Surely you're not saying that a man has authority or leading over another man's wife are you? Men do not have any authority over women, other then their wife, and only in things pretaining to the family.
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UberLutheran
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I would vote for a female candidate -- just not this particular female candidate.
(I hope this dispels the myth -- and it is a myth -- that all Democrats are in love with this particular female candidate. I, for one, don't love her -- and I wouldn't trust her any farther than I could see her. )
(I hope this dispels the myth -- and it is a myth -- that all Democrats are in love with this particular female candidate. I, for one, don't love her -- and I wouldn't trust her any farther than I could see her. )
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She probably will win it if the Republicans run another war canidate. The Democrats will take all this time, so get ready.
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Stinker
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- Sep 23, 2004
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Many Christians today just (I think) refuse to accept that in the 1st century women were looked down upon so severely that many poeople didn't even think they were worthy enough to do the dusting on the pearly gates, let alone open them an go on in. Consider what sandman (copied?) and pasted in his post following my above post. Notice how the writer of that material watered down/downplayed the Koine Greek word for 'saved' . Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the N.T. says of this word as it is used in 2Tim.2:15 means of the time when they turned to Christ, as a thing still in the future.
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Verse 15
Notwithstanding = but
She shall be saved (Gr) sozo = made whole, made complete,
in = through
childbearing On the surface it looks like childbearing is a curse, but actually she {the wife} shall be made complete, whole, through childbearing.
{Guys will not understand that, but women will}
If they - The husband and wife.
Continue in en - governs only the dative case and denotes being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest and continuance.
Faith = (Gr) pistis - noun = the divinely implanted principle. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. This particular form is not the action of believing, but the firm persuasion or conviction of what we hear from Gods word.
And charity = (Gr) agapê We all know this as being the love of God, but this love goes so much further than that which was known in the OT. Its a spontaneous love irrespective of rights. Its love in its fullest conceivable form, and beyond.
And holiness - as becoming to the husband and wife as devoted to God. [sandman post #26]
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