Wives vs submission to husbands vs submission to Jesus

[LostMarbels]

Oh honey dont need to apologize to me at all, you did not mislead me. If anything I think what you shared was great and would hopefully help alot of people that come across it, truly I think its an awesome read.

But yeah on the funny side of the coin, I was like oh my Lordy this man been typing since the thread was posted lol...... its funny, just laugh with me, alrighty?

I usually do write for hours LOL, but recently I have been in multiple conversations with non Christians and I had grown tired of being shot down for no logical reason after hours of effort. I always try to present my post as factual and truthful as possible. I went for the copy paste approach assuming the usual backlash, and argument that would ensue. Kind of an ice breaker.

Thank You for reminding me of the kindness most have on this forum.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

There's a tendency in the church to treat Eph 5 and a few other so-called marriages passages as if they exist in a vacuum, but they don't. They are part of the whole counsel of God. With that being said, the Bible teaches that men also represent the church. After all, the church (bride of Christ) is made up of men and women - not just women. Male believers are also part of the bride of Christ (church). That symbolism isn't restricted to women and wives. It also applies to male believers too. That's another fact that so often gets left out of the conversation. Christian men don't stop representing the church when and if they become husbands.

the only reason this would be left out of the conversation is because it has nothing to do with the conversation in that it is in no way related to ephesians 5s illustration of the marriage between a man and a woman being a reflection of Christ's relationship to the church(ephesians 5:31-32).

Woman represents God too. God has many names and many attributes. God Himself is called our Helper (Ezer in Hebrew):

Behold, God is my helper (Psalms 54:4a).

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is also called our Helper: John 14:17, 26.
Considering God’s role as Helper puts things in perspective. God, Almighty Sovereign Lord of the Universe, is our Helper, and women are created in his image to be helpers in their marriages, families and communities. What's the point? Women also represent God; that's not limited or restricted to men. That fact very often gets left out of the conversation too.

again, nothing to do with what ephesians 5:22-29 is saying. you're conflating the subjects of being a member of Christ's church with the hierarchal structure of marriage.

 

[Solomons Porch]

I usually do write for hours LOL, but recently I have been in multiple conversations with non Christians and I had grown tired of being shot down for no logical reason after hours of effort. I always try to present my post as factual and truthful as possible. I went for the copy paste approach assuming the usual backlash, and argument that would ensue. Kind of an ice breaker.

Thank You for reminding me of the kindness most have on this forum.

Oh it can get exhausting I totally agree, so anytime I come across a good point or read, YEP you darn tootin i save it, cause one day ima be too fed up to try, so I will just slap that baby right on up there and boom, Im done

 

[minique]

the only reason this would be left out of the conversation is because it has nothing to do with the conversation in that it is in no way related to ephesians 5s illustration of the marriage between a man and a woman being a reflection of Christ's relationship to the church(ephesians 5:31-32).

again, nothing to do with what ephesians 5:22-29 is saying. you're conflating the subjects of being a member of Christ's church with the hierarchal structure of marriage.

You, like so many others, are treating Eph 5 like it exists in a vacuum when it does not. Eph chapter 5 is part of ALL SCRIPTURE - the whole counsel of God.

ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:16).

I simply refuse to treat Eph 5 like it exists in a vacuum because it does not. Eph 5 isn't any more or less inspired than the rest of the Bible.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

You, like so many others, are treating Eph 5 like it exists in a vacuum when it does not. Eph chapter 5 is part of ALL SCRIPTURE - the whole counsel of God.

ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:16).

I simply refuse to treat Eph 5 like it exists in a vacuum because it does not. Eph 5 isn't any more or less inspired than the rest of the Bible.

i'm treating it within the contextual framework the author placed it in which to refer to the hierarchal structure of marriage. it is part of all the rest of scripture in that its point does not come in conflict with scriptures overall narrative and that the apostle Paul wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

your accusation that I would see this passage as uninspired is baffling.

 

[RDKirk]

No Jesus in heart = no submission to Him.

I would point out, however, that Christian submission in general has nothing to do with whether the person being submitted to has "Jesus in heart."

Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. -- 1 Peter 2:18

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I would point out, however, that Christian submission in general has nothing to do with whether the person being submitted to has "Jesus in heart."

Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. -- 1 Peter 2:18

A person who doesn't have Jesus in their heart, can't truly submit to Jesus. That's what I was saying.

 

[Blade]

Why is it so hard for people to submit to their "heads"?
Ephesians 5:22-33. Lays it out plainly.Wives submit to their husbands just as the Church must submit to Jesus. Scripture says that when a man finds a wife he has found something good.Ephesians 5: 25 tells husbands to love their wives as their own bodies. These are scriptures to give serious consideration of before and after marriage.Jesus is head of man.So why is it so hard for a man to submit to his head? What's the problem?

Man.. to love the woman like Christ loves the church and died for the Church..the world. And we do not treat our wifes like this. Sometimes when this gets talked about.. its as if the woman is under our mans control. FAR from it. Both..not just one..both have to become one for Christ to be the head. He takes it no other way.

 

[Darren Court]

Okay this is a simple issue that gets blown out of proportion and context.

The bible gives wives clear instruction .. Obey your husband
The bible gives husbands clear instruction ... Love your wife as Christ loves the church.

So if the husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church (i.e. unselfishly) then wives have little problem obeying... because a husband following this instruction will never give his wife any instruction she doesn't like that isn't for her good. It means husbands have a huge responsibility to only require submission where they know are doing it for the right reasons.

Obviously husbands aren't perfect and will make mistakes and even require submission when they shouldn't. When this happens should wives submit? Well, yes and no! It depends on the circumstances, the people, the relationship and above God's view.

In other words ... it's always difficult for the husband because there is definitive means to know when he should be giving instruction or not and ultimately he is totally responsible for all the decisions he makes for himself, his wife and the family. It's easy for wives to obey whilst their husband is following God's direction but when they think he errs it's difficult for them too as there's no definitive means to know either.

Being led by the Holy Spirit and never seeking selfish desires is a good place for both wives and husbands to start from!

 

[Archivist]

That's one reading. Another is that both husband and wife share leadership (taking initiative, making decisions) and that both lovingly and respectfully submit to one another.

In my experience the second is much healthier for all concerned. I think it's a distortion of this passage to see all power as something God gives to the husband. That's not a husband's role.

My girlfriend and I mutually submit to one another. We make decisions together. If we cannot agree on something we compromise. It works well.

 

[Theo Book]

Why is it so hard for people to submit to their "heads"?
Ephesians 5:22-33. Lays it out plainly.Wives submit to their husbands just as the Church must submit to Jesus. Scripture says that when a man finds a wife he has found something good.Ephesians 5: 25 tells husbands to love their wives as their own bodies. These are scriptures to give serious consideration of before and after marriage.Jesus is head of man.So why is it so hard for a man to submit to his head? What's the problem?

Peter said - "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."
(1 Peter 3:7 )

I have heard Preachers and teachers for years preach that this is a reference to "Carnal knowledge."

That is so false it makes me want to scream.

It means, When two marry, they are strangers. If you, Husband, will learn who your wife is, what are her likes and dislikes, her issues, and fears, and if you will learn how to cope with protecting her and defending her against those things she fears, and help her understand those things she does not understand; in other words be a wise companion, and a caring friend, you will have to do it, to see the change that will come, and it is well worth the wait, and the effort.

After all, you were not put in charge because of anything YOU did, but because of God's wisdom in such things. It is not a case of "Do you believe in God?" It is a case of "God believes in you."

Go. Love your wife. Earn her love and affection, and you will never doubt that issue again.

 

[RDKirk]

Peter said - "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."
(1 Peter 3:7 )

I have heard Preachers and teachers for years preach that this is a reference to "Carnal knowledge."

That is so false it makes me want to scream.

It means, When two marry, they are strangers. If you, Husband, will learn who your wife is, what are her likes and dislikes, her issues, and fears, and if you will learn how to cope with protecting her and defending her against those things she fears, and help her understand those things she does not understand; in other words be a wise companion, and a caring friend, you will have to do it, to see the change that will come, and it is well worth the wait, and the effort.

After all, you were not put in charge because of anything YOU did, but because of God's wisdom in such things. It is not a case of "Do you believe in God?" It is a case of "God believes in you."

Go. Love your wife. Earn her love and affection, and you will never doubt that issue again.

Not in disagreement, but I'd make a point:

Although this portion of 1 Peter sounds much like the corresponding portion of Ephesians, it's actually a different message.

Ephesians is written to Christians dealing with Christians, and in this case is instruction to Christian husbands with Christian wives, Christian wives with Christian husbands.

All of 1 Peter is a "field manual" for us Christians as "aliens," "pilgrims and sojourners"--ambassadors of Heaven--assigned to the nations of the world to represent Christ.

This passage of 1 Peter is detailed information on how Christians should relate to non-Christians at every level, including Christians with non-Christian spouses. So "according to knowledge" refers to her knowledge (rather, lack of knowledge) of Jesus. Just as Peter has already spoken of the wife's behavior being an influence to Christ upon her non-Christian husband, the Christian husband must take into account the fact that his non-Christian wife does not have his knowledge.

(In both cases, remember that these wives and husbands were in a society in which husbands ruled the household without dispute, so the "tactics" of the Christian wives must necessarily be different from the "tactics" of the Christian husbands.)

But to reinforce a point you made that Peter makes (especially with regard to the Christian masters of slaves, both Christian and non-Christian):

After all, you were not put in charge because of anything YOU did, but because of God's wisdom in such things.

Indeed, the Christian who has social control of a non-Christian (slave or wife) has been made God's steward of that person, and God will hold him accountable for that person's welfare.

 

[Ajushi]

Everything you said here is false.
Women and men are not any different in these regards, and there are just as many carnal women who use men for sociopathic sex as there are carnal man who use women.

Also the Word says just the opposite of what you said a Christian woman is to do - in 1Peter 3, it says that a woman who is married to a man who does not obey the word should continue to submit to him and let her chase conversation coupled with fear be the only way she setting example to him. If she is in a destructive abusive dynamic, I'm not speaking about that. I have not actually found in the Word addresses what to do in those situations

I'm responding this way because what you were saying speaks a curse over men, paints women as these loving innocent victims, and says the opposite of what the word says, all in one post.

I dont know if this is gonna help u or not, but here it is.
A woman (that loves and TRULY lives for Christ) will not submit to her husband, if her husband does not take on the roll of leading her and loving her, just as Christ loved the church. A woman needs to feel secure and protected, at all times. When she has sex (makes love) she needs to have her emotions met, or else she cannot bring herself to have sex with her spouse. Because she feels empty. Her love is on the inside, a mans love is on the outside. If she feels like a treasured jewel to you and you listen to her and care for her emotions as well as her physical being, you got it made with her. She will b ready at all times. Men are visual and dont communicate as often as women need. Talking and emotions being met, is foreplay to a woman. Not like the man of course, you are visual, she is not. Her visual does not come into effect until the emotional part is satisfied. She has to feel trust, security and emotional comfort from the spouse.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Everything you said here is false.
Women and men are not any different in these regards, and there are just as many carnal women who use men for sociopathic sex as there are carnal man who use women.

Also the Word says just the opposite of what you said a Christian woman is to do - in 1Peter 3, it says that a woman who is married to a man who does not obey the word should continue to submit to him and let her chase conversation coupled with fear be the only way she setting example to him. If she is in a destructive abusive dynamic, I'm not speaking about that. I have not actually found in the Word addresses what to do in those situations

I'm responding this way because what you were saying speaks a curse over men, paints women as these loving innocent victims, and says the opposite of what the word says, all in one post.

I'm sorry can you try that again? I don't understand anything you have said.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus is head of man.So why is it so hard for a man to submit to his head? What's the problem?

As it is written, men follow whoever it is they serve.

See how easy it is ?

 

[Stefo]

Why is it so hard for people to submit to their "heads"?
Ephesians 5:22-33. Lays it out plainly.Wives submit to their husbands just as the Church must submit to Jesus. Scripture says that when a man finds a wife he has found something good.Ephesians 5: 25 tells husbands to love their wives as their own bodies. These are scriptures to give serious consideration of before and after marriage.Jesus is head of man.So why is it so hard for a man to submit to his head? What's the problem?

For a marriage to be really normal, a man and wife must be both quite committed to living a Christian life. In doing so, the man will be a real man, or at least have the makings of one. He will therefore worship God as best he can, and try to do good by his neighbour - being as honest as possible with himself about his shortcomings, and trying again and again, always asking God for help. In all of this the man, from a certain perspective, will at least have the makings of a priest, a king, a warrior, and a man, all in one - just as in Christ. No woman in her right mind could resist this, and would happily submit, creating a true harmony between the couple.

The issue becomes awfully skewed, however, when just one of all of the above ingredients for success is missing, chiefly because it either becomes impossible for a woman to respect a pseudo-man, or else her submission to him is forced and inauthentic. In some cases, however, the latter is still better than nothing.

There is, of course, the possibility of a Christian man trying his best, and yet his wife is blind and has no appreciation for the wisdom, truth, and goodness in her husband, in which case she will not respect him or perhaps any man. This obviously has some drawbacks.

In part, then, we can assume that women in general currently have an unsubmissive attitude because men in general are rarely what they're meant to be. That said, let's consider the story of Adam and Eve - the first betrayal of God and seemingly initiated by the woman. Why did Eve disobey God and even Adam? And why did Adam follow Eve's example? Was it that Adam wasn't as manly as he could have been? And what part of it belongs to Eve showing the first signs of blindness and disrespect for truth? Probably the answer is both, providing for a recipe for disaster between husband and wife - a situation we're not called to accept, but to redress through the help of Christ.

 

[Paidiske]

I think the idea that if the man is good enough, the woman would be happy to submit, is deeply flawed. The idea of submission in itself - in the sense of power/control over another - is one that many of us would reject no matter how lovely the man wielding it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In part, then, we can assume that women in general currently have an unsubmissive attitude because men in general are rarely what they're meant to be.

This seems to be a common error, and excuse for women, which is not true.
IF a woman is born again in CHRIST JESUS. she if fully submitted to YHWH, born of HIM, and her husband is the head of the family as YHWH says.
IF she does not submit, she is in rebellion, regardless of if the husband is what , you say, "he is meant to be". Instead, she is not what she is meant to be either.
IT is trust the men and women usually do not even read the BIBLE, let alone know YHWH'S meaning , purpose, plan and healing therein (the power of the GOSPEL).
INstead, most have, at most, "the form of religion", and deny the power thereof.
Since most don't know, and don't seek, there is a lot of rejection of YHWH'S WAY,
without ever knowing it. THe great majority reject YHWH'S WAY, both religious people and people with no religion, according to GALATIANS, EPHESIANS, REVELATION, and most powerfully true, Y'SHUA'S (JESUS') OWN WORDS in the GOSPEL- "few find the narrow road to life" ;
THUS it is no surprise when this is realized,
that so many people rebel against GOD.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

I

This seems to be a common error, and excuse for women, which is not true.
IF a woman is born again in CHRIST JESUS. she if fully submitted to YHWH, born of HIM, and her husband is the head of the family as YHWH says.
IF she does not submit, she is in rebellion, regardless of if the husband is what , you say, "he is meant to be". Instead, she is not what she is meant to be either.
IT is trust the men and women usually do not even read the BIBLE, let alone know YHWH'S meaning , purpose, plan and healing therein (the power of the GOSPEL).
INstead, most have, at most, "the form of religion", and deny the power thereof.
Since most don't know, and don't seek, there is a lot of rejection of YHWH'S WAY,
without ever knowing it. THe great majority reject YHWH'S WAY, both religious people and people with no religion, according to GALATIANS, EPHESIANS, REVELATION, and most powerfully true, Y'SHUA'S (JESUS') OWN WORDS in the GOSPEL- "few find the narrow road to life" ;
THUS it is no surprise when this is realized,
that so many people rebel against GOD.

If she does not submit she is in rebellion regardless of if her husband is what he needs to be in Christ? No sir. If her husband is whipping her tail ,cursing her out raping her she'd be a fool to submit let alone remain with that man.For this reason scripture tells us not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

An unbeliever could drive the holy ghost flat out of his or her spouse.