Wives vs submission to husbands vs submission to Jesus

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Not so. HE WHO is in us, is STRONGER than he that is in the world. Notice
particularly the Foxes Book of Martyrs ,
and
Corrie ten Boom / learned YHWH'S WAY - love, joy and peace
WHILE IN PRISON / nazi war camp.....

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Not so. HE WHO is in us, is STRONGER than he that is in the world. Notice
particularly the Foxes Book of Martyrs ,
and
Corrie ten Boom / learned YHWH'S WAY - love, joy and peace
WHILE IN PRISON / nazi war camp.....

Oh so you don't believe that an unbelieving spouse could cause the christian one to backslide?

 

[RDKirk]

I think the idea that if the man is good enough, the woman would be happy to submit, is deeply flawed. The idea of submission in itself - in the sense of power/control over another - is one that many of us would reject no matter how lovely the man wielding it.

And they would be stiff-necked and wrong. The only person ever to amaze Jesus by his faith was the man who could say, "I am a man under authority."

Nobody who would reject submission "no matter how lovely the man wielding it" can claim to be submitted to Jesus. Such a person doesn't even know how to submit.

 

[Paidiske]

There is an appropriate time and place for dynamics of power and control; I submit that marriage is not one of them. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Oh so you don't believe that an unbelieving spouse could cause the christian one to backslide?

Where did you get that idea from ?

Even believing spouses and small or big churches or teachers or pastors or priests can (as it happens)
cause many christian ones to sin. (I don't know if backsliding is actually YHWH'S description)

 

[RDKirk]

There is an appropriate time and place for dynamics of power and control; I submit that marriage is not one of them. That was the point I was trying to make.

Marriage is the ideal place, particularly "no matter how lovely the man wielding it."

I've had to be submissive to "froward masters."

 

[DarthNeo]

There is an appropriate time and place for dynamics of power and control; I submit that marriage is not one of them. That was the point I was trying to make.

God laid out the dynamic (as is stated in the original post)...

 

[Paidiske]

Marriage is the ideal place

Why?

God laid out the dynamic (as is stated in the original post)...

That is not an agreed matter amongst Christians.

 

[DarthNeo]

Why?



That is not an agreed matter amongst Christians.

Whether or not we agree with it does not matter, God said it...

The husband submits to Christ, the wife submits to the husband...

It's pretty clear.

 

[Paidiske]

How we understand Scripture does matter, a very great deal. Your understanding is not binding on every other believer.

 

[DarthNeo]

How we understand Scripture does matter, a very great deal. Your understanding is not binding on every other believer.

Again, it's pretty straight forward...

 

[Paidiske]

No, it isn't. I do not believe that being a Christian binds me to some sort of family hierarchy in which I have less input into decision making, less responsibility, or less contribution to leadership than my husband.

In my reading of the Scriptures, the most important thing about marriage is not hierarchy but unity; not the domination of one by the other but the learning to work together, each looking out for the good of the other, working together for the raising of family and contribution to the church and the world.

I see the emphasis on hierarchy as denying the value, the dignity and the worth of women; a lack of respect for women as being in the image of God; and as a cultural habit which has contributed to the suppression of women's well-being, education, employment, and social contributions throughout the centuries. It is not, to my mind, a good thing for Christians to hold to, but a very detrimental thing.

Oppression is never a Christian value.

 

[DarthNeo]

No, it isn't. I do not believe that being a Christian binds me to some sort of family hierarchy in which I have less input into decision making, less responsibility, or less contribution to leadership than my husband.

In my reading of the Scriptures, the most important thing about marriage is not hierarchy but unity; not the domination of one by the other but the learning to work together, each looking out for the good of the other, working together for the raising of family and contribution to the church and the world.

I see the emphasis on hierarchy as denying the value, the dignity and the worth of women; a lack of respect for women as being in the image of God; and as a cultural habit which has contributed to the suppression of women's well-being, education, employment, and social contributions throughout the centuries. It is not, to my mind, a good thing for Christians to hold to, but a very detrimental thing.

Oppression is never a Christian value.

Your perspective is all wrong, submission is NOT oppression. Husbands are to submit to Christ, that does NOT oppress us, it FREES us...

 

[Paidiske]

Your perspective is all wrong, submission is NOT oppression. Husbands are to submit to Christ, that does NOT oppress us, it FREES us...

One can submit either to oppression or out of freedom. But a dynamic which reduces women to be less than their husbands is oppressive. Christ is never oppressive.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Where did you get that idea from ?

Even believing spouses and small or big churches or teachers or pastors or priests can (as it happens)
cause many christian ones to sin. (I don't know if backsliding is actually YHWH'S description)

I can assure you from real life experience that an unbelieving spouse can cause the other to backslide. It's not some idea that I've trumped up. I'll lay it to you like this:A christian lady married a man who liked to party and get drunk every weekend. Well she prayed on him but maybe her faith wasn't strong enough or something because eventually she started partying and drinking too and quit coming to church.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Marriage is the ideal place, particularly "no matter how lovely the man wielding it."

I've had to be submissive to "froward masters."

Amen to that! My boss isn't the nicest person in the world but if I want to keep my 14 dollar an hour job I have to submit or find employment elsewhere.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I can assure you from real life experience that an unbelieving spouse can cause the other to backslide. It's not some idea that I've trumped up.

So ? EVEN BELIEVING SPOUSES (I posted) can and do cause their mates to stumble and sin - often WORSE THAN unbelievers do ! And pastors and priests OFTEN cause others to stumble - again still worse than unbelievers cause to stumble .....

If a person has not the life of GOD inside them, it truth and in power , as a born again of GOD child,
then they will stumble all the time.
IF a person had the resurrection power of JESUS CHRIST in their LIFE ,
no one can (usually) make them stumble --- and we are not told to avoid those sinners of the world either ! We must needs every day some days associate with them.
OBEY CHRIST. FOLLOW CHRIST. every day. all day.
married and unmarried.
with believing spouse and with unbelieving spouse.
trust , rely on, and obey GOD'S WORD/ JESUS / and don't use other people, sinners nor priests, as an excuse to sin.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

One can submit either to oppression or out of freedom. But a dynamic which reduces women to be less than their husbands is oppressive. Christ is never oppressive.

Christ is never oppressive. Amen to that truth!!Yes one can agree to submit to oppression or freedom.This all goes back to our free will.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Your perspective is all wrong, submission is NOT oppression. Husbands are to submit to Christ, that does NOT oppress us, it FREES us...

Likewise, wives submit first to Christ, and then to their husbands as Christ has said - it is GOD'S direction for order.
And it is the TRUTH that sets us free, not rebellion.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

So ? EVEN BELIEVING SPOUSES (I posted) can and do cause their mates to stumble and sin - often WORSE THAN unbelievers do ! And pastors and priests OFTEN cause others to stumble - again still worse than unbelievers cause to stumble .....

If a person has not the life of GOD inside them, it truth and in power , as a born again of GOD child,
then they will stumble all the time.
IF a person had the resurrection power of JESUS CHRIST in their LIFE ,
no one can (usually) make them stumble --- and we are not told to avoid those sinners of the world either ! We must needs every day some days associate with them.
OBEY CHRIST. FOLLOW CHRIST. every day. all day.
married and unmarried.
with believing spouse and with unbelieving spouse.
trust , rely on, and obey GOD'S WORD/ JESUS / and don't use other people, sinners nor priests, as an excuse to sin.

Okay so now we're getting somewhere. I can agree with you here.Thanks.