Withdrawing from "church"

[FerventDisciple]

I guess you could call this a follow up post to my previous one about finding a church/church attendance: http://www.christianforums.com/t7855342/

So in the end we didn't go back to CC for a number of reasons though we would of been ok going for now just for the sake of it, their teaching series which is going to last for the foreseeable future on a doctrine we don't hold to made it rather pointless.

But there is a larger issue that I didn't mention in the previous thread that prevents us from going to most churches since most are part of this and we want no part of it. The 501c3 issue. We have never been a part of a church that is involved in this and never will. If you have never heard of this, basically by becoming a 501c3 corporate church you are making the government the head of your church and it is them who give you the right to exist. This places the church under all kinds of restrictions, including what you can and cannot say in the pulpit. Look at the recent events in Houston to see an example of this.

You can read a good primer on this here: 501c3: The Devil's Church

Note I don't agree with everything posted on that site.

So for this reason and others I am we are withdrawing from "Church". We're not against attending a church, but until we find one that has Jesus as the head of the church and that teaches the full council of God (or if our old non 501c3 church turns around), I will be teaching my family at home.

 

[Andry]

With respect, you're nitpicking, out of convenience, then rationalizing it "scripturally".

Simply, most countries have legal requirements for setting up any sort of formal organziation. Is it a perfect model? Probably not. But in most respects, better than not having legal requirements as that could become a haven for scams, frauds, even criminal activities.

That said, if you truly want Jesus to be the "head", then what about your citizenship (I see Texas as your location, but the Union Jack also)? You are bound by the legal requirements of that citizenship.

Also, are you legally married with a piece of paper in hand, or simply "shacking up" like in Biblical times without that piece of paper?

If you look at the legal fine print of these two documents, I doubt that it mentions Jesus as the head, and instead the government/constitution of where you reside.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I guess you could call this a follow up post to my previous one about finding a church/church attendance: http://www.christianforums.com/t7855342/

So in the end we didn't go back to CC for a number of reasons though we would of been ok going for now just for the sake of it, their teaching series which is going to last for the foreseeable future on a doctrine we don't hold to made it rather pointless.

But there is a larger issue that I didn't mention in the previous thread that prevents us from going to most churches since most are part of this and we want no part of it. The 501c3 issue. We have never been a part of a church that is involved in this and never will. If you have never heard of this, basically by becoming a 501c3 corporate church you are making the government the head of your church and it is them who give you the right to exist. This places the church under all kinds of restrictions, including what you can and cannot say in the pulpit. Look at the recent events in Houston to see an example of this.

You can read a good primer on this here: 501c3: The Devil's Church

Note I don't agree with everything posted on that site.

So for this reason and others I am we are withdrawing from "Church". We're not against attending a church, but until we find one that has Jesus as the head of the church and that teaches the full council of God (or if our old non 501c3 church turns around), I will be teaching my family at home.

Good for you brother! House church is where it started and before it's over where it will all return. "Church" as we here in America understand it, and probably most the Western civilization, is not what Jesus intended when he established it. Not the way it is ran anyway, by pastors and domineering individuals who have a cult like following amongst the populace. I will be praying for you. Perhaps sometime soon I can make a trip to where you are located and visit for a bit! I need to head back that way anyhow... God bless and may the Spirit lead you!

P.S. I attend a home church network and absolutely LOVE IT! Sure, I may not view things as completely as they do. Perhaps in time, I will. I have a lot of traditional church left in me unfortunately. Perhaps there is a network of home churches there you can join. I will look into it and see. If I find something I will let you know through the appropriate means. God bless brother!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

With respect, you're nitpicking, out of convenience, then rationalizing it "scripturally".

Simply, most countries have legal requirements for setting up any sort of formal organziation. Is it a perfect model? Probably not. But in most respects, better than not having legal requirements as that could become a haven for scams, frauds, even criminal activities.

That said, if you truly want Jesus to be the "head", then what about your citizenship (I see Texas as your location, but the Union Jack also)? You are bound by the legal requirements of that citizenship.

Also, are you legally married with a piece of paper in hand, or simply "shacking up" like in Biblical times without that piece of paper?

If you look at the legal fine print of these two documents, I doubt that it mentions Jesus as the head, and instead the government/constitution of where you reside.

Shacking up or no, a piece of paper doesn't make a marriage binding in God's eyes. I'm pretty sure they didn't have marriage certificates in Abraham's day.

Regardless, why criticize a brother for a decision he is making with his conscience and reasoning? If you don't like it, don't post here. Otherwise support him and pray for him and his family. Criticism does nothing constructive to help.

 

[Andry]

Shacking up or no, a piece of paper doesn't make a marriage binding in God's eyes. I'm pretty sure they didn't have marriage certificates in Abraham's day.

Regardless, why criticize a brother for a decision he is making with his conscience and reasoning? If you don't like it, don't post here. Otherwise support him and pray for him and his family. Criticism does nothing constructive to help.

Criticism? Really?

It's truly easy to lump things we don't yet understand into the "conscience" basket. Like a person's lack of knowledge about food offered to idols. While they could remain there all their lives, what's your role as a brother in Christ to bring knowledge, or wisdom, or here's a big word...revelation into their lives and come to maturity without dismissing that as criticism?

The fact that you have, shows a lot about your attitude.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Criticism? Really?

It's truly easy to lump things we don't yet understand into the "conscience" basket. Like a person's lack of knowledge about food offered to idols. While they could remain there all their lives, what's your role as a brother in Christ to bring knowledge, or wisdom, or here's a big word...revelation into their lives and come to maturity without dismissing that as criticism?

The fact that you have, shows a lot about your attitude.

Spare us please. You criticized him with a decision he made out of his God given conscience.

 

[FerventDisciple]

With respect, you're nitpicking, out of convenience, then rationalizing it "scripturally".

Simply, most countries have legal requirements for setting up any sort of formal organziation. Is it a perfect model? Probably not. But in most respects, better than not having legal requirements as that could become a haven for scams, frauds, even criminal activities.

That said, if you truly want Jesus to be the "head", then what about your citizenship (I see Texas as your location, but the Union Jack also)? You are bound by the legal requirements of that citizenship.

Also, are you legally married with a piece of paper in hand, or simply "shacking up" like in Biblical times without that piece of paper?

If you look at the legal fine print of these two documents, I doubt that it mentions Jesus as the head, and instead the government/constitution of where you reside.

Being a corporation (Latin corpus I.e body) of the government forfeiting your rights and giving them authority over what you can preach is a pretty big nit to pick. Whatever happened to we ought to obey God rather than men?

The differences with the examples you posted is those are personal issues unrelated to my rights as a Christian. They do not place the government as head of my life, but 501c3 of churches does place them as head of the church. In many of those churches when the end time prophecies start to go down and martial law etc comes about those government pastors are going to tell the congregations to obey the government using Romans 13 as justification and lead them straight into a ditch. In those churches (not all, some 501c3 churches are simply ignorant about it) the staff are nothing more than government agents, employees of the government.

 

[Boidae]

I believe the main reason for a church to go 501c3 is for the tax exempt status.

I cannot blame them one bit if they do for that reason alone.

 

[FerventDisciple]

Good for you brother! House church is where it started and before it's over where it will all return. "Church" as we here in America understand it, and probably most the Western civilization, is not what Jesus intended when he established it. Not the way it is ran anyway, by pastors and domineering individuals who have a cult like following amongst the populace. I will be praying for you. Perhaps sometime soon I can make a trip to where you are located and visit for a bit! I need to head back that way anyhow... God bless and may the Spirit lead you!

P.S. I attend a home church network and absolutely LOVE IT! Sure, I may not view things as completely as they do. Perhaps in time, I will. I have a lot of traditional church left in me unfortunately. Perhaps there is a network of home churches there you can join. I will look into it and see. If I find something I will let you know through the appropriate means. God bless brother!

Never thought about it like that, it will return to house churches.

Any time bro, just bring your sunglasses, I get blinded here without them being used to the drab grey skies of England.

Interesting, let me know if you learn anything. The misapplication of Hebrews 10:25 has a lot to do with how we come to do "church" IMO. Somehow people see that as meaning they must become a member of a Church and embrace Churchianity rather than simply having fellowship with Saints.

 

[Andry]

Spare us please. You criticized him with a decision he made out of his God given conscience.

Yeah ok. While our conscience may be God-given in its original state, through the course of our life and experiences and histories, they can be seared, tainted, desensitized, etc ad nauseam; it's not de facto that everyone's consciences at any point in time is how it's supposed to be.

 

[Andry]

Being a corporation (Latin corpus I.e body) of the government forfeiting your rights and giving them authority over what you can preach is a pretty big nit to pick. Whatever happened to we ought to obey God rather than men?

The differences with the examples you posted is those are personal issues unrelated to my rights as a Christian. They do not place the government as head of my life, but 501c3 of churches does place them as head of the church. In many of those churches when the end time prophecies start to go down and martial law etc comes about those government pastors are going to tell the congregations to obey the government using Romans 13 as justification and lead them straight into a ditch. In those churches (not all, some 501c3 churches are simply ignorant about it) the staff are nothing more than government agents, employees of the government.

Like I said, with respect. It's your choice. But the fact that you posted your choice/concerns publicly suggest it's open for further discussion.

Our legal citizenship, whether or not we are aware of it, born into it by default, or through immigration, does bind us to the constitution of that government - regardless of what type of government it is, or whether or not it's a "Godly" nation. If we are truly supposed to be citizens of heaven and ambassadors of earth, then all the things that are immoral within the legal framework of our governments should cause the same reaction and response if a government under whatever legislation state that it is the head of the church. IOW, be prepared to leave that country and start our own sovereign state whereby Jesus is the head.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The 501c3 issue.

Which is, for the most part a NON-ISSUE. ANy Denominational group fits under 501c3 for the tax breaks it affords.

If anybody really CARES what it is, I DEFINITLY wouldn't recommend a "Watchdog site" with its own agenda.

Why not get it straight from the horse's mouth??: Exemption Requirements - 501(c)(3) Organizations.

The PRIMARY THING about 501c3 is that it frowns upon Blatant POLITICAL ACTIVISM.

We have never been a part of a church that is involved in this and never will. I will be teaching my family at home.

Your choice. It's never been an issue for me one way or the other.