Witches, wizards and the occult

[Rhamiel]

I mean, that's fine, I guess I just wasn't understanding that some people here believe in humans being able to do magic outside of God's miracles.

In that case, I could understand how exposing kids to stories about witchcraft might lead to problems. But I wouldn't blame it on the stories. I would blame it on the person who's teaching the kid that magic is a real thing that people need to worry about. If the kid is taught fact from fiction, there shouldn't be an issue.

good point

while I do think there is demonic magic that is sometimes done, I do not see Harry Potter as a "gateway drug" into that

 

[Miss Spaulding]

We should do a Skype Harry Potter movie night.

Bring your wand. Wear your robes. There'll be plenty of butter beer for everyone.

And if you can't find your way to the Skype chat, don't get discouraged and stay behind, just use your enchanted map and follow the footsteps of everyone else... Because I solemnly swear this movie night will be up to no good.

Don't miss out.

 

[Hawthorne]

lol.
LOTR is the worst.
People seem to get obsessed with that one.

I looked through the thread, and the point about Tolkien's wizards has not been addressed. And it needs to be done.

If Tolkien's wizards are are not earth-bound angels, they're heavily influenced by the idea. He discusses the wizards at great length and detail in his essay, The Istari, found in the book Unfinished Tales.

If I may, here are a few brief excerpts in Tolkien's own words:

Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they called it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature of the World. The translation (though suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is perhaps not happy, since the Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from the "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.​

Recapping, Tolkien is less than satisfied with wizard being an adequate translation of Istari, since the Istari are entirely different in origin and were only on earth during a specific point in history; and I say history since Tolkien purports all of his writings to be history that occurred on this earth.

Tolkien goes on to describe how men supposed they had accumulated their vast knowledge and handling of lore through years of study, but the Istari were in fact spirits who had assumed the bodies of men: real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

Elaborating more on the Istari's origin and ultimate fate, Tolkien continues:

For it is indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.​

The role that Gandalf plays to both Bilbo and Frodo is legitimately understood as a visible, fleshly guardian angel.

Any 'magic' that the Istari perform (save, perhaps, for Saruman) are the same stuff as any of the miracles performed in the Bible by God's prophets or even Jesus himself.

The Lord of the Rings may have objectionable material, but wizards are not one of them.

Uh, no, there is not much difference lotr and hp are to do with witchcraft and sorcery the occult is actually much bigger than what you think.

To say it has nothing to do with occult is a lie. They are stories about it, but they make it out to be something that occultists want it to be,,,to have a power that actually doesnt work to their advantage in reality. Eg LOTR had stuff about runes. Runes are used in divination. hp mentions scrying. Scrying is an occult practice.

As @Sketcher mentioned, runes were the alphabet for Germanic and Norse peoples. It may interest you to know that þ, œ, and ð are runes and were early letters of the English alphabet and can be seen in Anglo Saxon writings and certain Middle English writings. After a time, they became obsolete as their phonemes were replaced by other letter combinations; th for þ, for example.

As a world-renown linguist and specialist in Medieval literature, it's understandable that Tolkien would have incorporated runes into his stories. In fact, in a collection of his posthumous works is a poem about Middle Earth matters written entirely in Anglo Saxon) Old English using Anglo Saxon alliterative verse techniques.

For example, the wizard of oz is an absolute occult movie. But since its a fairy tale, people think its harmless, I beg to differ. What happened to Judy Garland who played dorothy in the movie is a case in, point. Another one who played Glinda the 'good witch' actually commited suicide.

I will grant you this; Baum was involved in the Theosophical Society and some occult themes are present in The Wizard of Oz (I can't speak for any of his other Oz stories or any Oz stories outside Baum's canon); two that immediately come to mind are the notion of lost lands and the elusive Emerald City (and its ostensibly omniscient 'Wizard')'s similarity to the emerald tablet of Hermes Trismegistus.


Sorry. When I see misrepresentation like this, I need to address it.



tl;dr - The Lord of the Rings may have objectionable material, but wizards are not one of them.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I looked through the thread, and the point about Tolkien's wizards has not been addressed. And it needs to be done.

If Tolkien's wizards are are not earth-bound angels, they're heavily influenced by the idea. He discusses the wizards at great length and detail in his essay, The Istari, found in the book Unfinished Tales.

If I may, here are a few brief excerpts in Tolkien's own words:

Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they called it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature of the World. The translation (though suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is perhaps not happy, since the Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from the "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.​

Recapping, Tolkien is less than satisfied with wizard being an adequate translation of Istari, since the Istari are entirely different in origin and were only on earth during a specific point in history; and I say history since Tolkien purports all of his writings to be history that occurred on this earth.

Tolkien goes on to describe how men supposed they had accumulated their vast knowledge and handling of lore through years of study, but the Istari were in fact spirits who had assumed the bodies of men: real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

Elaborating more on the Istari's origin and ultimate fate, Tolkien continues:

For it is indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.​

The role that Gandalf plays to both Bilbo and Frodo is legitimately understood as a visible, fleshly guardian angel.

Any 'magic' that the Istari perform (save, perhaps, for Saruman) are the same stuff as any of the miracles performed in the Bible by God's prophets or even Jesus himself.

The Lord of the Rings may have objectionable material, but wizards are not one of them.


As @Sketcher mentioned, runes were the alphabet for Germanic and Norse peoples. It may interest you to know that þ, œ, and ð are runes and were early letters of the English alphabet and can be seen in Anglo Saxon writings and certain Middle English writings. After a time, they became obsolete as their phonemes were replaced by other letter combinations; th for þ, for example.

As a world-renown linguist and specialist in Medieval literature, it's understandable that Tolkien would have incorporated runes into his stories. In fact, in a collection of his posthumous works is a poem about Middle Earth matters written entirely in Anglo Saxon) Old English using Anglo Saxon alliterative verse techniques.


I will grant you this; Baum was involved in the Theosophical Society and some occult themes are present in The Wizard of Oz (I can't speak for any of his other Oz stories or any Oz stories outside Baum's canon); two that immediately come to mind are the notion of lost lands and the elusive Emerald City (and its ostensibly omniscient 'Wizard')'s similarity to the emerald tablet of Hermes Trismegistus.


Sorry. When I see misrepresentation like this, I need to address it.



tl;dr - The Lord of the Rings may have objectionable material, but wizards are not one of them.

 

[dms1972]

That guy looks like he really agrees.

Hilarious video-loop , what film is that from?

 

[dms1972]

People seem to get obsessed with that one.

Yeah, I suppose if you see people enjoying talking about something, and its not your thing, then they can seem a little obsessed. Best thing might be to start a conversation about your own favorite writer.

 

[dms1972]

It makes no sense to lump Lewis and Tolkien in with all fantasy writers, books of this nature need to be separated more carefully from each other.


For instance there's no consistent moral cosmos in the Harry Potter books. Though Rowling gave a nod to CS Lewis, her cosmos doesn't have any clearly consistent limits on magic. It was clever to have a railway platform called platform 9 and three quarters (or whatever it was), that others didn't notice. But by differentiating Harry and his friends from the rest of mankind who are muggles in that way she seems to have introduced an elitist aspect, not saying she did any of this deliberately - one sometimes doesn't see the implications.

In Narnia the children are unwittingly involved in Magic by selfish characters, for instance Uncle Andrew in The Magicians Nephew. Later they dispose of the magical box that Uncle Andrew had been told to burn. We see the children growing wiser and doing the right thing in a world with adults often ranging from uncomprehending to selfish. When at the end they dispose of the box of dust they are surrendering the objective reality beyond themselves. Even Uncle Andrew it seems is a good deal less likely to get involved in magic again.

In Narnia you could enter as not being a friend of Narnia as with Eustace in Voyage of the Dawn Treader, who then learnt the error of his ways and became a changed boy, though not perfect.

To fail to see these differences in fantasy stories is to lack real discernment.

"Narnia is indeed a world in itself - again not so deep and profound a cosmos as that created by Tolkien, yet with few exceptions whole and consistent. Lewis's Christianity is ancient, fixed and orthodox. His events, on the other hand, are created from the rich world of fantasy."

Clyde Kilby who was a early Lewis scholar - wrote and maybe this will settle the question of why Lewis wrote, though its been said by others here:

"It seems obvious that two purposes guided Lewis in the writing of his Narnia stories. One was to tell a good tale, the other to suggest analogies - I do not think Lewis would wish them called allegories - of the Christian scheme of things."

 

[Goodbook]

Its not really talking about writers Im referring to the whole occult world of witches and wizards. That some people choose to write fantasy stories about them just shows maybe a lack of imagination about whats really imprortant.

Jesus is important, and has more power than a witch or wizard will ever have. If people are idolising witch and wizard characters in a story I think maybe that tells you they lack discernment over what God has said in the Bible about them.

 

[Goodbook]

I see a lot of people idolizing witches and wizards esp in video games. Like one poster on the forum asked if he could beat up women..im like what?? Because they saw it in a video game that was occult based..on martial arts.

 

[Goodbook]

The bible says to cast down vain imaginations that set themselves up against God. Well, I think people just dont know how to do that. They will try to justify everything and say, well. This witch or wizard influenced work is actually christian. Well its not. The two just do NOT mix.

For example in acts, when the sons of sceva tried to cast out demons using their own power. It became worse for them. only In the name of Jesus do people have that authority.
Witches and wizards, by definition, are anti christ and do not recognise Jesus. They try to obtain power for their own ends and will not glorify HIS name, just their own.

 

[Cearbhall]

Its not really talking about writers Im referring to the whole occult world of witches and wizards. That some people choose to write fantasy stories about them just shows maybe a lack of imagination about whats really imprortant.

Who cares? Not every aspect of entertainment has to be something that's important. I'm fine with something having a good message and an allegorical, fantastical setting, or vice versa.

This witch or wizard influenced work is actually christian. Well its not. The two just do NOT mix.

Have you published research on this topic?

 

[Goodbook]

Rememember how the Pharoah used sorcery in the bible to copy What God did through Moses.

Witches and wizards try to emulate what only God can do, and their power is counterfeit. If you fascinated by the counterfeit, or stories about the counterfeit and become obssessed with stories about them, because of the 'spell' or 'charisma' cast by them and then try to say its of God, then thats a lack of discernment right there.

 

[SnowyMacie]

That guy looks like he really agrees.

Hilarious video-loop , what film is that from?

I'm not sure where it's from. I heard once that due to the background of that scene, that clap is supposedly malicious.

 

[Miss Spaulding]

That guy looks like he really agrees.

Hilarious video-loop , what film is that from?

The film is Citizen Kane. The actor is Orson Welles.

 

[Cearbhall]

The film is Citizen Kane. The actor is Orson Welles.

Dang it. Beat. And I spent a whole 30 seconds on the Google.

 

[Miss Spaulding]

Dang it. Beat. And I spent a whole 30 seconds on the Google.

Hahaha

 

[Gnarwhal]

We should do a Skype Harry Potter movie night.

Bring your wand. Wear your robes. There'll be plenty of butter beer for everyone.

And if you can't find your way to the Skype chat, don't get discouraged and stay behind, just use your enchanted map and follow the footsteps of everyone else... Because I solemnly swear this movie night will be up to no good.

Don't miss out.

I still haven't finished the series. My sister and her husband begged me for months to watch it, so we spent probably two months watching one per weekend, but then we got to The Deathly Hallows and for some reason we turned it off before Part I was over (I think we were watching it before dinner). So I need to finish Part I and watch Part II.

 

[Swan7]

I still haven't finished the series. My sister and her husband begged me for months to watch it, so we spent probably two months watching one per weekend, but then we got to The Deathly Hallows and for some reason we turned it off before Part I was over (I think we were watching it before dinner). So I need to finish Part I and watch Part II.

Must needs to watch Harry Potter! All the more reason to have a Skype night!

 

[Saucy]

But...what if Goodbook grounds us?

 

[Hawthorne]

Or Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell.