Witches, wizards and the occult

[Hieronymus]

I see a lot of people idolizing witches and wizards esp in video games. Like one poster on the forum asked if he could beat up women..im like what?? Because they saw it in a video game that was occult based..on martial arts.

For real..?? wow..

 

[Miss Spaulding]

Or Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell.

This show is FANTASTIC.

 

[dms1972]

I still haven't finished the series. My sister and her husband begged me for months to watch it, so we spent probably two months watching one per weekend, but then we got to The Deathly Hallows..

I read the first book to write a book review, never thought much of what I seen of the films, I am the same with nearly all fantasy films though there are a few I still would enjoy from long ago. But I concluded there was absolutely no need to read or watch something I had no real interest in.

However I accept several of the concerns people have with it. A measurable increase in fascination with forms of occultism in one country accompanied the first book in the HP series. Rowling couldn't have known her books would become so popular. But really the later editions had a massive push from Hollywood whereas CS Lewis's and Tolkien's stories made it for decades on the quality of the written stories themselves.

Nowadays children grow up in an intellectual climate that is no longer under the grip of materialism. The preternatural which is portrayed in these stories, along with initiation into witchcraft etc. is elaborated in considerable detail. People cannot live in nihilism for long and they grope blindly for meaning somwhere, and thus are open to the egoistic spirituality of the times we live in.

They are treated to a considerable degree of mixed messages that most parents won't really know how to explain so as to separate the good from the diseased, or they'll try to do it carnally, and conclude 'sure its just a book, or a film'.

I found Michael O'Brien's book A Landscape with Dragons very helpful, he emphasises cultivating discernment, not banning books outright.

 

[dms1972]

Remember how the Pharoah used sorcery in the bible to copy What God did through Moses.

Witches and wizards try to emulate what only God can do, and their power is counterfeit.

What you say here is true, however as commendable as your Biblical preference is you're not exercising a gift of discernment, because you have not read most of what you are talking about, you are just generalising your own suspicious thoughts and unable to articulate differences in the stories which would place some fantasy books as fundamentally good, but with minor flaws, and others as appearing good while fundamentally disordered. Not everything can be classed as blatantly evil, or wholly good. Until you are able to do this you won't get a won't persuade people of the correctness of your assessment, even then there will be those who won't listen because they prefer to be entertained than to be faithful to Jesus Christ, and the scriptures

I share many of your concerns with the fantasy genre, including Harry Potter, but in many of your comments you are not exercising a gift nor using tools of discernment. This is seen by your attacks on Lewis and Tolkien.

I think you should either become better informed (ie not quick glances at websites, but real study on the subject) before commenting, and speak in context or give the subject a rest, you already have misrepresented CS Lewis.

 

[dms1972]

I'm not sure where it's from. I heard once that due to the background of that scene, that clap is supposedly malicious.

Yeah, I could see he looks really intense and I looked up the scene without the loop, but I should have remembered what film it was from.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Yesterday, April 1, my college's study abroad program announced that our newest location is Hogwarts!

The Bing Overseas Study Program (BOSP) today announced that it would be opening a new location at Hogwarts.

“We believe that this will be an enchanting experience for a variety of Stanford undergraduates,” a BOSP spokesperson said.

No foreign language requirement is going to be required for the new program, though BOSP wishes to remind students that Parseltounge is an option to satisfy Stanford’s language requirement.

Students attending the program will be unable to register for classes on Axess, as the Hogwarts faculty still haven’t figured out how to upload documents to the website, so students should check classes out on Cursework.

“Well, we ‘ave high hopes for the ideas Stanford students will bring,” a large bushy haired denizen of Hogwarts told a reporter for The Daily. “We’ll get along fine so long as they don’t bring any funny notions about banning a wee nip here and there.”

BOSP offices faced a flood of questions from the student body soon after announcing BOSP Hogwarts. Several students inquired about the bitcoin-to-Galleon exchange rate. Many others asked about the vegan options available in the Great Hall of Hogwarts and a third popular line of questioning lobbied for the creation of a CS+magic dual-degree program in the future.

One group especially excited about the new program was the Stanford Quidditch Team.

“We hope to have some quality practice team with our counterparts at Hogwarts, just as soon as the Stanford students vote to give us back our funding,” a representative said.

 

[dms1972]

And I agree about HP nourishing kids' imaginations

Out of all the classic books written through the ages, Harry Potter is mainly popular because its about rebelling against authority to some extent and panders to elitist wishful thinking. A big disappointment awaits the reader.

The films done their bit to gradually leave people caring less about any of it, and didn't nourish kids imaginations one jot. Because the nature of a book one has to imagine the scenes, the film does it all and the imaginative faculty atrophies as a result.

Sing praises to the Harry Potter books that got kids away from the TV and reading again, till the film came out!

Some christians are badly lacking in discernment however and the only possible outcome (if the Grace of God doesn't intervene) of such carelessness is a falling away from the simplicity that is in Christ, and eventual spiritual bondage.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

 

[dms1972]

.

 

[Miss Spaulding]

Reminds me of a joke I just made up: you can tell you lack any discernment when you can't see any difference.

Sure in LOTR Aragorn never even uses magic, Sam never uses it, even when he carry's the ring for Frodo for a bit - those are the two main characters. Sam's character is about loyalty and bearing burdens. Aragorn overcomes because he is the rightful, and future King - "You shall suffer me to pass!" . Throughout the ring only gets Frodo into difficulties in the long term.
My goodness you don't seem pick much up insights when you read these books.

You have read LOTR I suppose?

Correct if I'm wrong, but you imply that Frodo stumbled into difficulties throughout LOTR when he 'used' the Ring. First off, the Ring isn't magical but rather is 'intelligent' by way of being possessed with the spirit of its creator - Sauron. Secondly, the only times Frodo ever 'used' the Ring was either by accident (when it slips onto his finger by accident in The Prancing Pony) or as a desperate means of escape in a dangerous and deadly situation. ...Far different than using the Ring for his own magical purposes, thus getting himself into trouble.

 

[dms1972]

I can guess were you are attempting to go with your argument. So I'll have a go at heading you off at the pass.

Harry Potter is not an ordinary character who uses magic once or twice when in difficulties, he is educated (initiated) in it - even more he is born into it whereas those not of that destiny are 'Muggles' - something every reader of Harry Potter has to face - a bit of a disappointment for them, since they are too.

You'll maybe say its a bit of a disappointment when for kids reading Narnia for instance, they later go to a wardrobe only to find they can slap the back of it. True it may be disappointing for a few, but in the stories they are prepared for that and are told they won't be able to just come and go into Narnia as they please - they have to be called.

The Harry Potter books don't depict ordinary people (except rather negatively) - its not like young Charlie, and his family in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

There is evidence some of the kids who read Harry Potter are mean-spirited towards those who are not into the books. So the books don't seem to successfully challenge this - which seems quite surprising therefore that in cultures with an emphasis on tolerance, and diversity, a book that portrays most of the human race as ignorant 'Muggles' becomes so popular.

Contrast the diversity of Men, Elves, Hobbits, Dwarfs, in LOTR. Each having languages, histories, cultures of their own. Then there are the Goblins, Orcs, and other assorted creatures in thrall to Sauron.

So I don't see how Harry Potter and LOTR are anything like each other. In fact it just seems to bring out the point I am making - the Hobbits are not interested in magic'. The Ring belonging to Sauron was for his own evil purposes whether you want to talk about it being 'intelligent', or being drawn back to Sauron because his will was bent on finding it again, the ring still gave illicit powers to its wearer but also brought Frodo momentarily into the world of its owner - Sauron and the ring-wraiths.

He uses it when he is in difficulties, not selfishly as you correctly point out, but it brings more difficulties, doesn't really help - he gets stabbed by a Ring Wraith and a fragment lodges in his shoulder. A major theme is that the longer one has the Ring one is more loath to part with it, its never portrayed as neutral, or that a good character would use it benevolently if they owned it. Gandalf and Galadriel are fearful of what they might do with it, and refuse it - Galadriel remains Galadriel based on her refusal of the Ring.

That's the major difference between stories like Harry Potter and LOTR. In Harry Potter magic is neutral, just a tool, which is never the case, and Rowling should do the responsible thing if she hasn't and tell kids any form of involvement in actual witchcraft risks them becoming very enslaved.

I welcome your comments, criticisms if I have explained it wrong.

 

[Blue Wren]

Yesterday, April 1, my college's study abroad program announced that our newest location is Hogwarts!

Sign me up, please. Lol.

 

[dms1972]

Since I have said people need to cultivate discernment, and have given my own reasons for what I read, I hope I have lived up to my responsibility as a Christian in this instance.

In case it's not clear, you can become a christian without ever having read Narnia or LOTR. Not being interested in Narnia doesn't mean one is not a christian. But the Bible tells us to examine ourselves.

However its an literary task to show how books differ in their themes, explain the authors intention and make a case for how well the stories succeed or not, and a christian calling for some to write on literature.

As I have said I think the Narnia books, and LOTR are within the freedom of the believer to cultivate their own convictions about, and decide to read or not based on a prayerful consideration. That means they should not take away others freedom, by continually lumping these books all together as occult. Other fantasy literature to my mind is more fundamentally disordered, and christians need to issue cautions about reading some of it.

 

[dms1972]

.

 

[Miss Spaulding]

Nearly headless Nick?

My comments are not based on the LOTR films by the way, but the books - what a director does with a book when it becomes a film is not the fault of the books author, particularly if he's been dead for thirty years.

I should also say i just don't like live-action realistic fantasy that much, I prefer animated. The film-makers get hung-up on massive sets and minute detail, and massive armies when none of that matters in a myth.

Haha I can guess were you are attempting to go with your argument. So I'll have a go at heading you off at the pass.

Harry Potter is not an ordinary character who uses magic once or twice when in difficulties, he is educated (initiated) in it - even more he is born into it whereas those not of that destiny are 'Muggles' - something every reader of Harry Potter has to face - a bit of a disappointment for them, since they are too.

You'll maybe say its a bit of a disappointment when for kids reading Narnia for instance, they later go to a wardrobe only to find they can slap the back of it. True it may be disappointing for a few, but in the stories they are prepared for that and are told they won't be able to just come and go into Narnia as they please - they have to be called.

The Harry Potter books don't depict ordinary people (except rather negatively) - its not like young Charlie, and his family in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

There is evidence some of the kids who read Harry Potter are mean-spirited towards those who are not into the books. So the books don't seem to successfully challenge this - which seems quite surprising therefore that in cultures with an emphasis on tolerance, and diversity, a book that portrays most of the human race as ignorant 'Muggles' becomes so popular.

Contrast the diversity of Men, Elves, Hobbits, Dwarfs, in LOTR. Each having languages, histories, cultures of their own. Then there are the Goblins, Orcs, and other assorted creatures in thrall to Sauron.

So I don't see how Harry Potter and LOTR are anything like each other. In fact it just seems to bring out the point I am making - the Hobbits are not interested in magic, they prefer 'good tilled earth'. The Ring belonging to Sauron was for his own evil purposes whether you want to talk about it being 'intelligent', or being drawn back to Sauron because his will was bent on finding it again, the ring still gave illicit powers to its wearer but also brought Frodo momentarily into the world of its owner - Sauron and the ring-wraiths.

He uses it when he is in difficulties, not selfishly as you correctly point out, but it brings more difficulties, doesn't really help - he gets stabbed by a Ring Wraith and a fragment lodges in his shoulder. A major theme is that the longer one has the Ring one is more loath to part with it, its never portrayed as neutral, or that a good character would use it benevolently if they owned it. Gandalf and Galadriel are fearful of what they might do with it, and refuse it - Galadriel remains Galadriel based on her refusal of the Ring.

That's the major difference between stories like Harry Potter and LOTR. In Harry Potter magic is neutral, just a tool, which is never the case . In LOTR its like true religion if it involves a surrender to something Good beyond themselves, and false religion when it is used to dominate others.

I am not attempting to use terms like "magic" strictly and differentiate magic from witchcraft, I am aware there is a sort of stage magic - quickness of hand - but in HP its education not in speed of hand, its witchcraft, and wizardry and occult powers the kids are being schooled in.



I welcome your comments, criticisms if I have explained it wrong.

You elaborated way more than I was actually interested in. Anyway, it was everything I already know, but thanks for taking the time to write it up.

As for Saucy's comment, you assumed he was making a dumb and ignorant jab and comparison between HP and LOTR. He wasn't. In fact, he was playfully mocking the mindset of homeschooling parents in the late '90s/early 2000s, because his comment was precisely their view of HP and LOTR.

 

[BookofMatt]

Part of me is hoping that this eventually becomes the longest non-game/hangout thread in CF history.

 

[Faithfulandtrue]

I agree with Good book. Honestly I know I'm going to make some of you mad when I say this but, I think people that argue that 'its just fantasy/fiction' are in denial because they don't want to give it up. Sorry but I have to agree with GB, magic is magic and it is evil. The bible is clear that people who practice magic will not inherit the kingdom if God. I just don't get how if someone really is a Christian and yet if something is a sin they want to fight you on it instead of praying and considering,'hey maybe I should look into this and turn away from it.' Of course this stuff is going to look harmless. Satan never pops up and says 'here I am'. Same happen with me and pokemon, as a kid I thought it was cute and fun but wasn't until I got older I came across videos about occult symbolism and proof that it was satanic. So my love for God was greater than my fandom so I got rid of it from my life. Some of you will judge me and say I'm weird or radical, but what about the people in acts that burned their books on sorcery after they became Christ followers?

 

[BookofMatt]

Some of you will judge me and say I'm weird or radical, but what about the people in acts that burned their books on sorcery after they became Christ followers?

The Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus burned the remnants of their previous beliefs as a renunciation of their idolatry. Personally, I find it a stretch to equate ritualistic occultist scrolls with fictional children's books of made-up 'magic' which has no real similarity to real-world occultism, as do I feel the same about equating idolatry with fandom. Nobody's worshiping Harry Potter in a literal and ritual sense. Of course, your definition of idolatry may vary, but unless you side with Goodbook in considering all fiction ungodly, where does that leave Christian fiction and fantasy? Is it the mere association that's the problem? Would that mean reading a non-fiction history or cultural study book about magical practices be just as bad as actually practicing real magic?

Same happen with me and pokemon, as a kid I thought it was cute and fun but wasn't until I got older I came across videos about occult symbolism and proof that it was satanic.

I can show you endlessly comprehensive conspiracy videos on YouTube which say the moon landing was a hoax, aliens built the pyramids, the US government created AIDS, Paul McCartney died in 1966 and was replaced by a lookalike, the 9/11 planes were holograms, the Holocaust never happened, and pretty much anything Alex Jones says. You can't believe everything you hear or see on the internet, especially in video format.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative and say that you're wrong or anything. You certainly make some good points, especially about the whole "those who practice magic will not inherit the kingdom of God" thing. That's true, but I find that completely irrelevant to merely reading fantasy fiction. To me, that's like saying it counts as stealing if someone reads a book about a bank robbery, or saying it counts as idolatry if one reads a history book about ancient religions, or saying it counts as murder if you read true crime books, and so on and so on. And I say this as someone who's never read a word of Harry Potter or even delves that much into fantasy.

You have the right to dislike anything, so it's 100% fine if you have your reasons to avoid fantasy fiction. However, since you did ask a question, I feel obligated to share my own opinion of how I see no correlation between fantasy fiction and real-world magic, for precisely the reasons I described.

 

[Citanul]

Part of me is hoping that this eventually becomes the longest non-game/hangout thread in CF history.

It's got a long way to go before it surpasses this one: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-date-guys-only.7903673/

 

[Goodbook]

God has shown me whats behind a lot of the entertainment books, movies and other media that I 'consumed' as a child. He didn't do it all at once, He dealt with the big things first, like, for example yoga and new age/psychic things.

Going as far back to the age of maybe 5 or 6, I was exposed to the movie 'Wizard of Oz' as a child and, because I was the target audience, was completely under its spell. I was fascinated, not with the 'wicked witch' but Dorothy, who is they said 'a good witch' although she's an ordinary girl, in the movie, she goes to a fortune teller and then all this weird stuff starts happening to her. She's not happy at home and wants to leave. She dreams of 'going over the rainbow' which in of it self is not a bad desire, but her unhappiness makes her seek the wrong things.

I definitely did idolise this movie at a young age as I thought it was cool that it changed from black and white to colour and Dorothy was my heroine. Although toto and the other characters were cute. What I didn't realise at the time was this story the movie was based on comes from occult theosophy. I found this out much later, after I became a christian.

Movies can cast spells on people. People DO become obsessed with the characters portrayed in them. I met this guy who was YEARS older than me, like 50 and he was still obssessed with Judy Garland, who played Dorothy in the movie. I didn't understand this obssession, I thought she was ok, but didn't know that much about her. Well she's a brilliant artist, BUT there is this whole dark side to her and what people these days don't know is she got into a lot of drugs and alcohol, directly as a result of this film. She had to act like a young girl when she was 16 and the studios, MGM and her own mother put her on drugs to make her lose weight because she was too fat. Those drugs were addictiive (pharmokeopia..is one of those greek words that also mean SORCERY). Anyway she died at age 47 after long battle and intense suffering with those pills.

 

[Goodbook]

As a child I didn't know this and would chant 'we're off the see the wizard' like all the others. Well, God doesn't want us 'off to see the wizard' !!!!

The wizard is a charlatan! They all are. You see how insiduous it is.