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lol that's quite interesting. Talk about an extreme way to confuse someone XD
It's not so bad once you learn the terminology.
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lol that's quite interesting. Talk about an extreme way to confuse someone XD
Papias. 'Evolution' depends on people reading words like you just typed to me above, and just believing them, again at any time please back up a single statement with free full peer reviewed literature that you have at least skimmed and get the general overview.jinx, my earlier post described the process by which a gene duplication first makes a copy (which is unneeded at the time), and later mutations change that "extra" copy to do something new. The new, changed gene's bases no longer have their original sequence. Did you read that description, and do you see now how it supplies something different than was originally there?
Papias. 'Evolution' depends on people reading words like you just typed to me above, and just believing them,
again at any time please back up a single statement with free full peer reviewed literature that you have at least skimmed and get the general overview.
That's right Papias, the three fold expansion of the human brain would have started about 2 million years ago with all of the supposed human ancestors having a cranial capacity of under 600cc on average until the advent of Homo erectus.
It never ceases to amaze me how you can be so sketchy in your proofs yet pontificate corrections of errors that aren't errors.
As outsiders to the fields, all of the data is not easily available you and I. That's why I suggested taking a college course on it if you are interested in having a complete data set to work with.
I would suggest you take a course in logic because you are obsessed with fallacious logic.
You mean remove the data. And how is the remark above rude?
All of your remarks are rude, that's what you do here.
OK, mark, can you supply a reference that 700 and 850 are within the normal human range? They have to be common enough that finding one would be statistically likely. Here is a reference that puts it at around 950:
Stop, check the dates and we can talk about this again.
Anything from about 700 cc is within human range
jinx wrote:
That sounds like an unsupported statement.
Did I not already do that, on this thread for the very issue of new abilities by gene duplication and mutation we are discussing? I can look back and find that post if you like......
Notice that the item you posted is from a non-peer reviewed, old earth creationist site.
jinx, I don't understand your use of a quote from Spetner. Spetner has no biology related degrees, so whatever he says is irrelevant. Plus, he's a Larmarkian, which we both agree is incorrect. Since it would seem that you don't agree with him, why do you quote him?
(similarly, MM - just an FYI - modern biology rejects Larmarkian evolution, so I'm not sure why you referred to it as "Darwin's best friend". Much of Darwin's work was to refute Larmarkian evolution.).
mark, you cut out the part of your own post where you said "there are no transitionals". My point was that you had yourself claimed there were no transitionals - it wasn't something I read into your posts.
Is that a constructive statement for a discussion?
So if I say "have a nice day", that's rude?
Why are the dates relevant? The question was whether or not your claim that 700 and 850 are within the normal range is correct (which my references I posted showed was incorrect). That can be evaluated regardless of when they skulls are from. (they are both from a little under 2 million years, I think).
second time asking for a reference in support of this.......
We see then that the mutation reduces the specificity of the ribosome protein and that means a loss of genetic information. ... Rather than saying the bacterium gained resistance to the antibiotic, it is more correct to say that is lost sensitivity to it. ... All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not increase it.
Lee Spetner, Not by Chance, Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution
Papias said:(similarly, MM - just an FYI - modern biology rejects Larmarkian evolution, so I'm not sure why you referred to it as "Darwin's best friend". Much of Darwin's work was to refute Larmarkian evolution.).
*****************************************
Sorry Papias, but Darwin didn't refute
May God Richly Bless You! MM
mark kennedy said:Darwin did argue against a version of creationism called catastropheism, the idea that the earth had been created, destroyed and replenished many times. That's probably what Darwin was talking about in On the Origin of Species.
Papias makes general references into big deals, it's part of his charm.
Ok but if you skim it first you might see where they 'infer' based on their apriori world view (which isnt mine) a gene duplication event leading to 'neofunctionalization' x million years ago. I dont have faith in this ahahah i can either have faith in that, or faith in God.Did I not already do that, on this thread for the very issue of new abilities by gene duplication and mutation we are discussing? I can look back and find that post if you like......
Creation.com are not OEC, they write material refuting infinite attacks on genesis by both atheists and theists.Notice that the item you posted is from a non-peer reviewed, old earth creationist site.
jinx, I don't understand your use of a quote from Spetner. Spetner has no biology related degrees, so whatever he says is irrelevant. Plus, he's a Larmarkian, which we both agree is incorrect. Since it would seem that you don't agree with him, why do you quote him?
Did I not already do that, on this thread for the very issue of new abilities by gene duplication and mutation we are discussing? I can look back and find that post if you like......
Ok but if you skim it first you might see where they 'infer' based on their apriori world view (which isnt mine) a gene duplication event leading to 'neofunctionalization' x million years ago. I dont have faith in this ahahah i can either have faith in that, or faith in God.
Notice that the item you posted is from a non-peer reviewed, old earth creationist site.
Creation.com are not OEC, they write material refuting infinite attacks on genesis by both atheists and theists.
jinx, I don't understand your use of a quote from Spetner. Spetner has no biology related degrees, so whatever he says is irrelevant. Plus, he's a Larmarkian, which we both agree is incorrect. Since it would seem that you don't agree with him, why do you quote him?
HE IS A BIOPHYSICIST MATE.
NO HE ISNT A LAMARCKISM.
Sorry Papias, but Darwin didn't refute Lamarckism.
Lamarckism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Darwin's Origin of Species proposed natural selection as the main mechanism for development of species, but did not rule out a variant of Lamarckism as a supplementary mechanism. [1] Darwin called his Lamarckian hypothesis Pangenesis, and explained it in the final chapter of his book Variation in Plants and Animals under Domestication, after describing numerous examples to demonstrate what he considered to be the inheritance of acquired characteristics.
And I've seen in numerous posts on this forum and from some of the scientific articles posted that many times they revert to a type of Lamarckism to explain why an animal would change when mutations just don't make any sense.
http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item...pe=2&tid=12546
May God Richly Bless You! MM
That sounds like an unsupported statement.
Which is itself an unsupported statement.
mark, you cut out the part of your own post where you said "there are no transitionals". My point was that you had yourself claimed there were no transitionals - it wasn't something I read into your posts.
I never said that and I never said apes evolved from humans. Your habitual twisting of words makes your posts mindlessly simple to refute.
There is no transitional, the brain would have had to double in size, pretty much over night.
I never said apes evolved from humans.
When have you ever had a discussion with a creationist that was constructive?
No, if you say 'Have a nice day' to someone who is being rude you are shinning them on.
Why are the dates relevant? The question was whether or not your claim that 700 and 850 are within the normal range is correct (which my references I posted showed was incorrect). That can be evaluated regardless of when they skulls are from. (they are both from a little under 2 million years, I think).
Yes, they are both under 2 million years old, you finally caught on. Our supposed ancestors from 2 mya would have had cranial capacities only slightly bigger then a modern chimpanzee. In fact, the Taung Child and Lucy would have been a bit small in that regard. In all this time none of the skulls being passed off as human can be chimpanzee ancestors even though, several of them clearly are.
There is neither the time nor the means for the human brain to have evolved from that of apes in such a space of time but they don't have that much time to work with.
Homo erectus shows up on the scene about 1.9 mya, fully anatomically human with the exception of a cranial capacity just slightly smaller, about 900cc had he lived to full maturity.
That means, in case you missed it that the cranial capacity from Homo habilis to Homo erectus would have nearly doubled, over night, without precursors. The Homo ergaster skulls that we almost discussed are right around 700cc and 800cc, something like that and it's readily attributed to natural variance and sever limits to the reconstruction of the skulls.
Papias I know you are never going to be civil in these discussions but do you have to make it so easy to shoot down your arguments? At least argue against something substantive with something relevant and would you kindly give up these pointless personal attacks, they betray an enormous knowledge deficit you are crippled with.
AT ANY TIME BACK UP A SINGLE STATEMENT WITH LITERATURE. Nylonase was on a plasmid in a prokaryote.That depends on the case - some, like the nylonase, etc, are more recent. Plus, a duplicated gene is easy to detect becausethe bases are the same, regardless of when it happened. It can be empirically seen, today, that there are two copies, whether that happened in the distant or more recent past. In other words, the timing is not important to the mechanism anyway.
AT ANY TIME BACK UP A SINGLE STATEMENT WITH LITERATURE. Nylonase was on a plasmid in a prokaryote.
Don batten
The adaptation of bacteria to feeding on nylon waste
Lee Spetner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BIOPHYSICS
How many nucleic acids are there?
for having false information
That depends on the case - some, like the nylonase, etc, are more recent. Plus, a duplicated gene is easy to detect becausethe bases are the same, regardless of when it happened. It can be empirically seen, today, that there are two copies, whether that happened in the distant or more recent past. In other words, the timing is not important to the mechanism anyway.
AT ANY TIME BACK UP A SINGLE STATEMENT WITH LITERATURE.
Nylonase was on a plasmid in a prokaryote.
How many nucleic acids are there?
Are creationists denying that mutations in the gametes are inheritable?
If yes, then how do you explain why you look like your parents?
If no, then what's stopping full scale evolution from happening?
All evolution requires is two things: inheritable mutations and a process that allows one gene dominance (natural selection.)
If you have those two things then there's nothing stopping a dinosaur from turning to a bird or a fish turning into a mammal...
If you feel like this is an incorrect simplification of how biology works then please explain to me exactly why and where this process doesn't work?
