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Featured Will the Universe, the Wicked, Death, and Hell All One Day Be Destroyed?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by CDF47, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. CDF47

    CDF47 Active Member

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    Great post.

    The one verse which states forever and ever are regarding the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. I believe the beast is the system of the papacy, the false prophet is the religious system of Islam, and the dragon is the devil. I believe these systems and the devil may be tormented for ever in God's eternal mind since two of them are just systems. I think in the end even the devil will be destroyed.
     
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Glad you enjoyed it, since I originally wrote that I found something interesting with regards to the word 'torment' in Rev. 20:10:
    • to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
    • to question by applying torture
    • to torture
    • to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
    • to be harassed, distressed
    • of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind. (G928 - basanizō βασανίζω)
    Notice the first one is what the instrument of torture is. There could be something in the language that puts more emphasis on what is causing the torture then can be easily translated. I never really did resolve Rev. 20:10 but I think annihilation is a perfectly permissible alternative reading of those passages, certain difficulties not withstanding.

    I guess I have some differences with the false prophet being Islam because I believe it's a person. The beast is a kingdom that conquers the world and certainly would include the apostate version of pagan Rome, but not limited to it.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  3. CDF47

    CDF47 Active Member

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    We are close on our interpretations.
     
  4. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Please let's remember we are in Traditional Theology.

    Annihilationism is allowed only in Controversial theology. Because the Church never understood the Scriptures to teach annihilationism (though Orthodoxy actually DOES have alternative explanations which involve God not allowing people to suffer in their torment forever - but not by wiping them out).

    And this most certainly isn't the place to equate the papacy or any Church with the beast in Revelation.

    If you have questions, feel free to ask. You should also read the Statement of Purpose. Thank you.
     
  5. CDF47

    CDF47 Active Member

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    Sorry about that. Is there a way to have this moved to the Controversial Theology section?

    Just to note, there are some Protestants that believe in annihilationism.
     
  6. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I'll put in a request for it to be moved. I thought that you probably wanted something other than the Traditional view.

    No offense, but "some Protestants" pretty much covers any variations found anywhere in theology. That's where the diversity of belief comes in, because of how Christianity has developed over history.

    As I said, Orhtodoxy finds the idea that has developed (by changing several interpretations) of a God who vengefully burns people in hell forever as punishment for offending Him to be completely repugnant. But historically the Church has understood God and eternity differently.

    I'll put in that request for you. (And just to let you know, if you want something like that in the future, you can also post the request in your thread, and "report" your own post, with your request repeated in the "reason" box. It won't get you in trouble, but it will get the attention of the mods.) :)

    Have a great day!
     
  7. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    MOD HAT

    This thread was moved from Traditional Theology to Controversial Christian Theology.

    Carry on....
     
  8. CDF47

    CDF47 Active Member

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    Thanks for sending the request.
     
  9. CDF47

    CDF47 Active Member

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    Thanks.
     
  10. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    You are very welcome. :)

    Thanks, Free!!!
     
  11. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    And since you are now in Controversial, I do want to add ...

    As I said, our Church views God as good and loving. His intent and desire is to save everyone. He gets no pleasure at seeing anyone suffer.

    We cannot teach universalism, because that was not given to us by the Apostles, nor by Christ. However, along with God, we hope and pray for the salvation of each person.

    We don't delve into what we have not been given, nor teach what we do not know. But we do know, as I said, that God doesn't take pleasure in anyone's suffering, loves each person, and wants each one reconciled to Him. Souls are eternal, though. Man was not created to die. Had there been no fall, man would have lived, neither body nor soul dying. But God Himself is the Source of Life. In shutting himself away from God through sin, man brought death to himself. It was always God's will to restore, which is why Christ defeated death and made the resurrection of the body possible. ALL will be resurrected in the end, even those who hate God.

    God loves each of us, and He is so pure, Holy, so other ... that if we are in His Presence, feeling His love, yet in our sins and rejecting Him, we will experience that Presence and love as torment. Imagine a teenager that is really mad at their parents having to stand there and be hugged and kissed by the parents. The rebellion of the teen will experience that as torture. But hatred of God is a deeper rebellion (the teen doesn't really hate his parents) ... and God's Presence is much more profound than a simple human embrace. God won't force anyone's will, but He STILL loves, because He IS love. So ... anyone who hates Him will be tormented (and likely by regret too). He will suffer ... our God is a consuming fire - so awesome is His very Presence. But it will be a suffering if his own making.

    Now the speculative part. We can HOPE, and we do, that it is possible that with knowing the Truth, humans who hate God might let go of what sets them against God, at some point. It would be consistent with God's character for this to happen. He doesn't punish to exact pain, but everything He does is ultimately for restoration. We don't say that it is impossible for Him to restore those souls ... if not all, perhaps many it most ... from their torment. We desire, we pray, we love with God, and we hope that all men will eventually be drawn to Him. Or almost all. We don't know. We cannot proclaim this. We must not assure anyone of the chance of delayed reconciliation. But we always hope in the case if each person. And we certainly don't say "God can't". We do know He desires it.



    And I could have posted that in Traditional Theology, since it IS an accepted understanding of many of the Saints from the early days. But for the sake of not stirring things up, and since I thought you'd rather be here, I waited until it was moved. But this is a teaching (the possibility) from far back. Annihilationism isn't, but I can understand why it resounds with many. It really is NOT in God's nature to torment forever with no purpose in mind. You are right about that. :) And in the end, it's more important to get an understanding of God's character right, than it is to know exactly how He will accomplish what He hasn't told us.

    God be with you.
     
  12. CDF47

    CDF47 Active Member

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    That is a very interesting take on it. I pray for the salvation of as many as possible. I believe many Jewish people have views along these lines also.

    God be with you as well.
     
  13. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I'd be interested to learn how Jewish beliefs compare. I may track that down someday.

    :)
     
  14. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    If you believe Revelations is a "Gospel" message, then the Father is a god of destruction.

    I don't. I tend to follow the idea of the early church Paul created (gnosis).

    If the Father were a destroyer (murderer) he would have destroyed his adversary (devil, Satan, whatever) in the beginning. Our paths are laid out before us. We choose them. We are led. They lead to final destinations. We enter into the kingdom of Heaven by seeking it. Whatever path we seek, it continues when we physically die. The Earth (and Universe) will die on it's own, as it was imperfect from the beginning, and decaying all along (as the imperfect body does).

    I know it's seems controversial to the Orthodox thought, but books of gnosis teaches spiritual, and not physical. Revelations is physical. Christ said his words were spirit.
     
  15. CDF47

    CDF47 Active Member

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    I believe Revelation is the inspired Word of God and prophetic. God is love but He also has a wrath. It is wise to fear God as well as love and trust Him. He is a Leader of Leaders and those ingredients are crucial for leadership.
     
  16. Noxot

    Noxot tohu and bohu Supporter

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    I think they will be destroy when they are willing but as for the universe I don't know if it has an end or what God will do with it. it appears that it will be around for a while, my guess is that God plans to grow more souls from this universe.
     
  17. CDF47

    CDF47 Active Member

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    Based on scripture it sounds like God plans on destroying the entire universe. Below is a good article on this including Bible scriptures:

    The Destruction of the Universe by WordExplain
     
  18. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Can you elaborate?
     
  20. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    zdfh
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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