Will the Messianic congregation make a comeback in these last days?

[rockytopva]

I worry that we are in the midst of the Laodicean church age.

Sardis - Magisterials like John Calvin
Philadelphia - Pastors like Jacobus Arminius
Laodicea - Who was John Calvin? Who was Jacobus Arminius?

 

[Hammster]

I worry that we are in the midst of the Laodicean church age.

Sardis - Magisterials like John Calvin
Philadelphia - Pastors like Jacobus Arminius
Laodicea - Who was John Calvin? Who was Jacobus Arminius?

I don’t know why you are worried. You have no scriptural support that we are in any sort of age.

 

[rockytopva]

I don’t know why you are worried. You have no scriptural support that we are in any sort of age.

Sure... Plenty of scripture...

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3

 

[The Liturgist]

If someone wanted to point out that there were 100's of denominations and movements within the second church, all superior to mine, I would go along with that!

The Persecuted church - The Second Church - Beginning with the Apostle Paul. The Smyrnaean Church age began with the Roman Emperor Nero burning down Rome and accusing the Christians of doing it. Smyrna in the Greek means “Myrrh,” in which the Smyrnaean martyrs represented the most pure form of Christianity of all the church ages. The martyred crowns were many as the Smyrnaean church age progressed.

Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

But you don’t seem to get that there are churches which do not fit into the categories you have defined. And again, the scriptural proof is lacking. How, for example, do you figure that people from entire Christian epochs might be saved or damned? How do you assign the Roman Catholic Church to its own epoch when it has coexisted and continues to coexist with the Eastern Orthodox Church? What makes you think Orthodoxy is a product of the Dark Ages? Are you unaware that several of the most important developments in the history of that church occurred between 1300 and the present? Indeed, the period between 900 and 1300 was uneventful aside from the Baptism of the Kievan Rus, ancestors of the Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians and Ruthenians, in 1000 AD, schism with Rome in 1054-1100, the Crusades, and the brief Venetian rule of Constantinople. For that matter, the period after Justinian until Iconoclasm in the early 8th century was very uneventful, with only the heresy of Monothelitism and the rise of Islam. In contrast, every century since the 14th has been filled with remarkable incidents, persecutions, heresies, monastic accomplishments, internal schisms, and other events.

 

[rockytopva]

But you don’t seem to get that there are churches which do not fit into the categories you have defined. And again, the scriptural proof is lacking. How, for example, do you figure that people from entire Christian epochs might be saved or damned? How do you assign the Roman Catholic Church to its own epoch when it has coexisted and continues to coexist with the Eastern Orthodox Church? What makes you think Orthodoxy is a product of the Dark Ages? Are you unaware that several of the most important developments in the history of that church occurred between 1300 and the present? Indeed, the period between 900 and 1300 was uneventful aside from the Baptism of the Kievan Rus, ancestors of the Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians and Ruthenians, in 1000 AD, schism with Rome in 1054-1100, the Crusades, and the brief Venetian rule of Constantinople. For that matter, the period after Justinian until Iconoclasm in the early 8th century was very uneventful, with only the heresy of Monothelitism and the rise of Islam. In contrast, every century since the 14th has been filled with remarkable incidents, persecutions, heresies, monastic accomplishments, internal schisms, and other events.

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

 

[The Liturgist]

Sure... Plenty of scripture...

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3

But there is nothing to suggest that that passage refers to an age, rather than a specific church, the Church of Laodecia. One can apply the lukewarm criticism to some denominations throughout history, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church in the 18th century, the Church of England in the early 19th century before the rise of Anglo Catholics, the Prussian Evangelical Church for practically its entire history (due to the forced union of Lutherans and Calvinists, who separated in the US leading to the formation of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and the United Church of Christ, and the former is definitely not lukewarm, and the latter isn’t so much lukewarm as it is in serious doctrinal error), and some of the mainline denominations in the US and Europe today.

 

[The Liturgist]

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

There is nothing at all linking the number seven in that context with epochs of Church history. And there are far more than seven congregations in the world.

The problem is, as far as I can tell, that your model is based on an allegorical eisegesis. I am not trying to be mean to you about this, because I know you have held this belief for a while and have made many posts concerning it; I even agree with your concerns about lukewarm churches.

What I am trying to get across, and I think @Hammster is of a similar opinion, is that you either need to firm up the scriptural support for your interpretation, or revise it into something that accounts for the discrepancies I and others have pointed out, that is based on a more sound exegetical hermeneutic.

 

[rockytopva]

But there is nothing to suggest that that passage refers to an age, rather than a specific church, the Church of Laodecia. One can apply the lukewarm criticism to some denominations throughout history, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church in the 18th century, the Church of England in the early 19th century before the rise of Anglo Catholics, the Prussian Evangelical Church for practically its entire history (due to the forced union of Lutherans and Calvinists, who separated in the US leading to the formation of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and the United Church of Christ, and the former is definitely not lukewarm, and the latter isn’t so much lukewarm as it is in serious doctrinal error), and some of the mainline denominations in the US and Europe today.

You, sir, know your congregations. If you were to grasp ahold of the mystery of the seven churches I would love to read into it!

 

[rockytopva]

There is nothing at all linking the number seven in that context with epochs of Church history. And there are far more than seven congregations in the world.

The problem is, as far as I can tell, that your model is based on an allegorical eisegesis. I am not trying to be mean to you about this, because I know you have held this belief for a while and have made many posts concerning it; I even agree with your concerns about lukewarm churches.

What I am trying to get across, and I think @Hammster is of a similar opinion, is that you either need to firm up the scriptural support for your interpretation, or revise it into something that accounts for the discrepancies I and others have pointed out, that is based on a more sound exegetical hermeneutic.

I can present my case and if I am hated in return it is no big deal.

 

[rockytopva]

In reading into the churches I am thankful for the separation of church and state where sects such as the magisterial Protestants cannot re-arise.

 

[The Liturgist]

I can present my case and if I am hated in return it is no big desl.

Dude, I don’t hate you and neither does @Hammster . In fact I love you dearly. You are one of the nicest and friendliest members on ChristianForums. What I am doing is trying to challenge you so as to help you develop your idea so that it fits more with scripture and ecclesiastical history, because I understand where you are coming from.

 

[The Liturgist]

In reading into the churches I am thankful for the separation of church and state where sects such as the magisterial Protestants cannot re-arise.

I need to get you set up with some better works on Church History, because on this point, you’ve made some errors:

- You incorrectly assumed that all Magisterial Protestant churches were state churches. This is not true; the oldest of them, the Waldensians and Moravians, were subject to continual persecution before finding refuge in Switzerland and the estate of Count Zinzendorf respectively. In addition, Methodist and other authentically Wesleyan churches are Magisterial Protestant churches, because John Wesley was a priest in the Church of England and Methodism is basically proto-Anglo Catholicism with
- You assume that all of the magisterial Protestant churches engaged in some of the morally questionable acts of the Zwinglians in Zurich, the Calvinists in Geneva, and the Anglicans during the reign of Edward VI and Elizabeth I. In fact this is not the case; the Lutherans in particular were generally considerate, and after the Peace of Westphalia resolved the Wars of Religion between Calvinists, Lutherans and Roman Catholics, a series of conflicts which were as much the fault of Rome as the Protestants, and especially in the latter half of the 17th century, we see a dramatic increase in tolerance for dissent.
- You ignore the serious failings of the churches of the Radical Reformation, which include the Soccinians, who wound up committing apostasy by embracing the Unitarian heresy which had been extinct since the downfall of the Antiochian Patriarch Paul of Samosata in the 3rd century, who in addition to apostasy was also found to have embezzled the treasury of the church of Antioch, and also the Puritans, the predecessors of my denomination, who under the malevolent leadership of Increase Mather and his son Cotton Mather engaged in one of the worst atrocities committed by any Christians in history, that being the Salem witch hunts.
- You ignore the continued existence of state churches in England, Scotland, Scandinavia, and the Netherlands*, as well as the status of Roman Catholicism as a state church in several European countries.
- You assume, based on the above misconceptions, that the Magisterial Protestant churches are inherently bad, when this is not the case at all; most Magisterial denominations are not guilty of any violent persecutions, including those in the United States. Conversely, the oldest church in the US, the Puritans, who became the Congregational churches in the 18th century, the tradition I am associated with, in addition to the witch hunts and persecutions, also in the 18th century experienced the Unitarian schism in the Boston area, in which we lost Harvard, our main seminary and university, to Soccinian heretics, and this was partially the fault of our denomination for not pre-emptively catching the problem and granting professorships at Harvard, and degrees in divinity, and standing as ministers in our denomination to people whose commitment to the crucial doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

What ultimately saved Congregationalism and redeemed it as a denomination was its transition from being a Radical Reformation denomination to a Magisterial Protestant denomination, that combined Reformed theology with high church, in some cases extremely high church, liturgy.

 

[rockytopva]

I need to get you set up with some better works on Church History, because on this point, you’ve made some errors:

- You incorrectly assumed that all Magisterial Protestant churches were state churches. This is not true; the oldest of them, the Waldensians and Moravians, were subject to continual persecution before finding refuge in Switzerland and the estate of Count Zinzendorf respectively. In addition, Methodist and other authentically Wesleyan churches are Magisterial Protestant churches, because John Wesley was a priest in the Church of England and Methodism is basically proto-Anglo Catholicism with
- You assume that all of the magisterial Protestant churches engaged in some of the morally questionable acts of the Zwinglians in Zurich, the Calvinists in Geneva, and the Anglicans during the reign of Edward VI and Elizabeth I. In fact this is not the case; the Lutherans in particular were generally considerate, and after the Peace of Westphalia resolved the Wars of Religion between Calvinists, Lutherans and Roman Catholics, a series of conflicts which were as much the fault of Rome as the Protestants, and especially in the latter half of the 17th century, we see a dramatic increase in tolerance for dissent.
- You ignore the serious failings of the churches of the Radical Reformation, which include the Soccinians, who wound up committing apostasy by embracing the Unitarian heresy which had been extinct since the downfall of the Antiochian Patriarch Paul of Samosata in the 3rd century, who in addition to apostasy was also found to have embezzled the treasury of the church of Antioch, and also the Puritans, the predecessors of my denomination, who under the malevolent leadership of Increase Mather and his son Cotton Mather engaged in one of the worst atrocities committed by any Christians in history, that being the Salem witch hunts.
- You ignore the continued existence of state churches in England, Scotland, Scandinavia, and the Netherlands*, as well as the status of Roman Catholicism as a state church in several European countries.
- You assume, based on the above misconceptions, that the Magisterial Protestant churches are inherently bad, when this is not the case at all; most Magisterial denominations are not guilty of any violent persecutions, including those in the United States. Conversely, the oldest church in the US, the Puritans, who became the Congregational churches in the 18th century, the tradition I am associated with, in addition to the witch hunts and persecutions, also in the 18th century experienced the Unitarian schism in the Boston area, in which we lost Harvard, our main seminary and university, to Soccinian heretics, and this was partially the fault of our denomination for not pre-emptively catching the problem and granting professorships at Harvard, and degrees in divinity, and standing as ministers in our denomination to people whose commitment to the crucial doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

What ultimately saved Congregationalism and redeemed it as a denomination was its transition from being a Radical Reformation denomination to a Magisterial Protestant denomination, that combined Reformed theology with high church, in some cases extremely high church, liturgy.

In which I must be careful of that. In this day and time it is easy to go out of the Spirit into the flesh in which...

19 The works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5

Especially, pertaining to this topic; wrath, strife, seditions, heresies....

I am not promoting any kind of movement or dogma here,

 

[The Liturgist]

In which I must be careful of that. In this day and time it is easy to go out of the Spirit into the flesh in which...

19 The works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5

Especially, pertaining to this topic; wrath, strife, seditions, heresies....

I am not promoting any kind of movement or dogma here,

So I have a vast library of Christian theological works, including many works on church history, many of them ebooks, and a great deal of them are available on Scribd, which has a very low subscription fee.

 

[Hammster]

Sure... Plenty of scripture...

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3

That was written to that church in the first century.

 

[rockytopva]

Well… As I don’t want to feed the spirit of the Laodicea church age I am up and off to church where the worship is not too bad. I do visit different churches as long as they are in the word…

 

[rockytopva]

If you study the magisterial Protestants, especially Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin you will find a mean and controlling bunch of men. After Calvin toasted Servetus he said...

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin, after the death of Michael Servetus

"Pure devilry is urging on the peasants…. Therefore let all who are able, mow them down, slaughter and stab them, openly or in secret, and remember that there is nothing more poisonous, noxious and utterly devilish than a rebel. You must kill him as you would a mad dog…" -Martin Luther

Huldrych Zwingli, after Luther and Calvin, was often time referred to as the "Third Man of the Reformation" and just as ruthless. By 1525, adults in Zurich were being baptised in rivers. This was bitterly opposed by Zwingli and Zwingli agreed that Anabaptists should be drowned in a decree of 1526. This destroyed the group and they survived in a few isolated areas of Switzerland or moved to other areas

I believe the magisterial protestants, such as we had in Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin, were all your Sardisean church age variety Christian, and had no use for the Anabaptist.

 

[Hammster]

If you study the magisterial Protestants, especially Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin you will find a mean and controlling bunch of men. After Calvin toasted Servetus he said...

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin, after the death of Michael Servetus

"Pure devilry is urging on the peasants…. Therefore let all who are able, mow them down, slaughter and stab them, openly or in secret, and remember that there is nothing more poisonous, noxious and utterly devilish than a rebel. You must kill him as you would a mad dog…" -Martin Luther

Huldrych Zwingli, after Luther and Calvin, was often time referred to as the "Third Man of the Reformation" and just as ruthless. By 1525, adults in Zurich were being baptised in rivers. This was bitterly opposed by Zwingli and Zwingli agreed that Anabaptists should be drowned in a decree of 1526. This destroyed the group and they survived in a few isolated areas of Switzerland or moved to other areas

I believe the magisterial protestants, such as we had in Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin, were all your Sardisean church age variety Christian, and had no use for the Anabaptist.

Obviously you can believe what you want. But you are practicing eisegesis and reading things into the text. You have yet to show from scripture that the seven real churches that existed in the first century, and to whom John wrote his letter, are also seven church ages.

 

[rockytopva]

Obviously you can believe what you want. But you are practicing eisegesis and reading things into the text. You have yet to show from scripture that the seven real churches that existed in the first century, and to whom John wrote his letter, are also seven church ages.

And we may have an argument for OSAS here…

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. - John 10:27-28

iIn which case, you can believe in OSAS and not be Calvinist, it is for the whole Christian church.

 

[Hammster]

And we may have an argument for OSAS here…

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. - John 10:27-28

iIn which case, you can believe in OSAS and not be Calvinist, it is for the whole Christian church.

Do you understand my point?