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Will the Messianic congregation make a comeback in these last days?

rockytopva

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@Hammster is right to ask you for the scriptural basis for it, because we are taught to do so with regards to any apparently novel doctrine and any spirit in the Epistles of the Apostle Paul.
I would tell what I will imagine as Sardisean age Protestants that…

1. The church was 1,500 years old before they came along
2. The Protestants could be quite mean and would have had most us put to death. And we have the Lutherans drowning and burning ana-baptists, as well as hating the Jews. With the Calvinist we have those opposed to Calvin, such as Michael Servetus burned at the stake.

That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." -Martin Luther

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther from the book "On the Jews and their Lies”

TO write against all the false opinions & errours of the Anabaptists, should be a thing too long, & such a bottomless pit, as I could not well come out of. For this canker differeth in this thing from all other sects of hereticks: that she hath not erred only in certain points: but she hath engendered a whole sea, as it were, of foolish & false opinions. In such wise that scant shall a man find one Anabaptist which hath not some fantasy singular: which his fellows have not. So that if we would pluck out, or rehearse all their wicked doctrines, we should never make an end. But now at length they become unto two principal sects: whereof the one, though she be full of wicked & pernicious errours, yet doth she abide in much more simplicity. For she yet receiveth the holy scripture, as we do. And if men do dispute with those that be of that sect, it shall be perceived wherein they differ from us, & they will express their meaning, & in conclusion it may be perceived in what they accord, & wherein they dissent. The second sect is a mass of such foolish & beastly opinions, as the like cannot be found, insomuch that it is wonder how creatures which bear the figure of a man, can be so clean without sense & reason, as to suffer themselves so to be deceived, & fall into fantasies more than brutish. This sect call themselves libertines. And counterfeit so much the spiritual, that they set no more by the word of God, than they do by fables: except it be when it pleaseth them, and when as they may deprave it, and by force make it to serve for their devilish opinions. And besides this they have a charming or croaking as it were Cranes, so that a man cannot tell what it is, that they would say, and no more do they wot what it is themselves: but that by this craft they cover the filthiness of their doctrine. For their principles are to confound all differences between good & ill, & to mingle God so with the Devil that it should not be discerned between the one and the other, and so to make men not only without all feeling in their consciences before God: but also without shame before the world. Now see you wherefore they drive themselves into such caves of obscure and doubtful words, to the end that their villainy should not be perceived, lest we should have them in horror and execration. As indeed our nature repugneth against such monstrous things as they bring forth. So now to write in a sum against the errours of the Anabaptists, the shortest and most expedient way is to keep this division, and to gather apart in one treatise the errours of them which be not altogether so mad and desperate: and in another treatise to discover the venomous malice of those wicked, which under the colour of spirituality, would make men like unto brute beasts. - John Calvin
 
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Hammster

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There were changes that occurred as the church progressed. I believe the Lord Jesus attempted the final word on such changes.

Ephesus - Messianic - Paul chastises Peter for not eating with the Gentiles in Galatian 2
Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes book of Martyrs has the persecutions as ten
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry
The problem is that you’ve not provided any scriptural support for these divisions, and they go about what John described in Revelation.
 
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Trivalee

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I believe the basic church congregations as seven...

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1


Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter

Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4


254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png


During the times of the first Messianic church it seemed the first church was dissipating away into what I would call the Smyrnaen church age, or the first age of the Gentiles. Which at that time, due to the Roman persecution, was non-denominational.

…and ye shall have tribulation ten days… - Revelation 2:10

Foxes book of Martyrs has the Roman persecutions as ten. The Smyrnaean Church age began with the Roman Emperor Nero burning down Rome and accusing the Christians of doing it. Smyrna in the Greek means “Myrrh,” in which the Smyrnaean martyrs represented the most pure form of Christianity of all the church ages. The martyred crowns were many as the Smyrnaean church age progressed.


Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

Just before the persecution of Nero we have Paul in Jerusalem…

30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar
32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul. - Acts 21

It is a wonder the Apostle Paul did not start a civil war as the great Jewish revolt was only a decade away.

* The Romans would retake Jerusalem in AD 71. Despite the upheaval brought by the revolt, and the destruction of the Temple, Jewish life continued to thrive in Judea.
* In 132, the revolt led by Bar Kokhba quickly spread from central Judea across the country, cutting off the Roman garrison in Aelia Capitolina (Jerusalem). The Bar Kokhba revolt greatly influenced the course of Jewish history and the philosophy of the Jewish religion. Despite easing the persecution of Jews following Hadrian's death in 138 CE, the Romans conquered and barred Jews from Jerusalem.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:24

During this time the Messianic Christian also seemed to dissipate away in which the apostolic writings seems to be all that is left of it.

Jerusalem is no longer trodden down under the feet of the Gentiles… The Messianic congregation seems to be coming back. My dad dated a Jewish lady who was also Catholic. According to that lady most Jewish Christians she knows are Catholic.

Will the Messianic congregation make a comeback in these last days?

I'm not sure of what you mean by "Messianic Congregation", but I know that some Jewish Christians go by the name "Messianic Jews".
 
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rockytopva

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The problem is that you’ve not provided any scriptural support for these divisions, and they go about what John described in Revelation.

John Calvin was proof of the Sardisean church age. Look how he hated the Anabaptists… On 21 January 1546, Calvin wrote to Farel in Neuchâtel that he had just met an Anabaptist Belot in Geneva. The letter also throws light on Calvin's attitude to the Anabaptists at that time. He says, "In these days an Anabaptist, when he was laying out foolish writings publicly for sale, was at my instigation arrested. You of course know the nature of these people from experience. But I have never been aware of such wild defiance before. Although I first addressed him politely, as is my custom, it did not suit him for a moment to talk otherwise with me than if he were dealing with a dog. When they led him to the city hall, he at once wanted to sit beside the first syndic; when he was turned away from there, he gave himself with raised head and rolling eyes the majestic aspect of a prophet and answered if it suited him with a few words the questions directed to him; frequently he was altogether silent. A dispute then arose between us on swearing. When I asked him if the law of the Lord did not give us directions for living, he uttered the horrible dogma of the Anabaptists: The Old Testament is done away! I quoted the words of Paul. All Scripture is profitable, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16, 17). I insisted that he answer; but not a word could I get out of him. Therefore I now explained this entire question, so that everyone might recognize the invincible ignorance of this man together with his equally great impudence. When he saw himself thus pushed, he uttered the usual frivolous phrase of the sectarians, that no man has a more comfortable life than the parsons. I answered with a few words, not so much to defend our class as to ward off the boldness of this beast. Then he called me covetous. This produced general laughter; for all knew that I had just this year refused a large personal salary and indeed so seriously that I assured them under oath that I would not preach another sermon if they did not leave off. They knew too that I had not only refused such extraordinary generosity, but had even returned some of my regular salary, not less than 20 crowns. And so he was attacked by all with abusive terms. I answered modestly, he would probably be rich in my position; it was no sign of avarice if I am poor with all the opportunity of becoming rich; but he could be accused by me on a matter of life and death, namely of theft; if he denied it I would offer my head for punishment for slander if it were not true. For it was certain that he was selling broadsheets for two and a half sous which had cost him four deniers. And it was not due to a fixed tax that he sold them so dearly. When he was silent as usual I began to talk about the sinlessness of the Anabaptists. When he had sufficiently shown his defiance, he was expelled from the city. Two days later, when he was again seized in the city, he was beaten, his books publicly burned, and he himself was told not to come again, on penalty of the gallows. This is a man or rather a beast of desperate wickedness." - John Calvin Calvin, John (1509-1564) - GAMEO
 
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rockytopva

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I would imagine John Bunyan suffering the same fate as Michael Servetus if Calvin could have gotten his hands on him. If we have an advantage in these Laodicean times it is that we can be Catholic, Protestant, Anabaptist, Pentecostal, Word of Faith, and even Messianic and not be persecuted for it.
 
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The Liturgist

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There were changes that occurred as the church progressed. I believe the Lord Jesus attempted the final word on such changes.

Ephesus - Messianic - Paul chastises Peter for not eating with the Gentiles in Galatian 2
Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes book of Martyrs has the persecutions as ten
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

That’s not really scriptural proof however, that is just your opinion on different churches which is in many cases wrong, misleading and offensive (for example, regarding Roman Catholicism and non-Wesleyan Protestantism; you ignore that Wesley was heavily influenced by the Moravians, who in turn originated as an attempt by Saints Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague, who are now venerated as martyrs in the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, to restore those things which Orthodoxy provided and Roman Catholicism at the time did not, for instance, communion in both kinds. And what form of Protestantism could be softer than evangelical Quakers, who predate Methodism by a century? And you ignore Pietism as well.

And @Hammster might be as frustrated as I am that you offered only one verse for a dubious interpretation of your view on the Ephesian church, and you have offered no scriptural proof of your concept connecting these supposed church epochs to different gems on the breast plate of the High Priest of Israel.
 
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rockytopva

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That’s not really scriptural proof however, that is just your opinion on different churches which is in many cases wrong, misleading and offensive (for example, regarding Roman Catholicism and non-Wesleyan Protestantism; you ignore that Wesley was heavily influenced by the Moravians, who in turn originated as an attempt by Saints Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague, who are now venerated as martyrs in the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, to restore those things which Orthodoxy provided and Roman Catholicism at the time did not, for instance, communion in both kinds. And what form of Protestantism could be softer than evangelical Quakers, who predate Methodism by a century? And you ignore Pietism as well.

And @Hammster might be as frustrated as I am that you offered only one verse for a dubious interpretation of your view on the Ephesian church, and you have offered no scriptural proof of your concept connecting these supposed church epochs to different gems on the breast plate of the High Priest of Israel.
We live in a church of historical change. Even Paul brought change to the established Messianic church early on...

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, - Galatians 2

Huge historical changes would also occur in that independent denominations would form after the established Magisterial Reformation took hold. Often to the dismay of the leaders of the magisterial church.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm not sure of what you mean by "Messianic Congregation", but I know that some Jewish Christians go by the name "Messianic Jews".

Fun fact: the churches with the most members of Jewish converts from antiquity are the Ethiopian Orthodox, the various churches of the Nasrani (St. Thomas Christians) in India such as the Jacobites, Indian Orthodox, Syro Malabar Catholics, and the Protestant Mar Thoma Syrian Church (because of the historic Kochin Jews who also lived in reasonable numbers until the years following the formation of Israel and the end of the British Raj in Kerala and the Malabar Coast, most notably the Sassoon family, one member of which ai believe is in the House of Lords, and another of which was the late Vidal Sassoon; the Kochin Jews have been in India since around 200 BC, and St. Thomas the Apostle was martyred in Keralaby a spear thrown by a Hindu prince in 53 AD, after which time his disciples Addai and Mari continued his mission), and the various churches of Syria, Lebanon and Mesopotamia (the Antiochian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East Chaldean Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Maronite Catholic, and so on).
 
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The Liturgist

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We live in a church of historical change. Even Paul brought change to the established Messianic church early on...

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, - Galatians 2

Huge historical changes would also occur in that independent denominations would form after the established Magisterial Reformation took hold. Often to the dismay of the leaders of the magisterial church.

Again, where is your scriptural proof of, for example, your doctrine linking the gems on the breastplate of the high priest to the different church epochs?
 
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rockytopva

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Again, where is your scriptural proof of, for example, your doctrine linking the gems on the breastplate of the high priest to the different church epochs?
I just mentioned the breastplate as it had a Sardis stone on it.
 
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Hammster

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John Calvin was proof of the Sardisean church age. Look how he hated the Anabaptists… On 21 January 1546, Calvin wrote to Farel in Neuchâtel that he had just met an Anabaptist Belot in Geneva. The letter also throws light on Calvin's attitude to the Anabaptists at that time. He says, "In these days an Anabaptist, when he was laying out foolish writings publicly for sale, was at my instigation arrested. You of course know the nature of these people from experience. But I have never been aware of such wild defiance before. Although I first addressed him politely, as is my custom, it did not suit him for a moment to talk otherwise with me than if he were dealing with a dog. When they led him to the city hall, he at once wanted to sit beside the first syndic; when he was turned away from there, he gave himself with raised head and rolling eyes the majestic aspect of a prophet and answered if it suited him with a few words the questions directed to him; frequently he was altogether silent. A dispute then arose between us on swearing. When I asked him if the law of the Lord did not give us directions for living, he uttered the horrible dogma of the Anabaptists: The Old Testament is done away! I quoted the words of Paul. All Scripture is profitable, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16, 17). I insisted that he answer; but not a word could I get out of him. Therefore I now explained this entire question, so that everyone might recognize the invincible ignorance of this man together with his equally great impudence. When he saw himself thus pushed, he uttered the usual frivolous phrase of the sectarians, that no man has a more comfortable life than the parsons. I answered with a few words, not so much to defend our class as to ward off the boldness of this beast. Then he called me covetous. This produced general laughter; for all knew that I had just this year refused a large personal salary and indeed so seriously that I assured them under oath that I would not preach another sermon if they did not leave off. They knew too that I had not only refused such extraordinary generosity, but had even returned some of my regular salary, not less than 20 crowns. And so he was attacked by all with abusive terms. I answered modestly, he would probably be rich in my position; it was no sign of avarice if I am poor with all the opportunity of becoming rich; but he could be accused by me on a matter of life and death, namely of theft; if he denied it I would offer my head for punishment for slander if it were not true. For it was certain that he was selling broadsheets for two and a half sous which had cost him four deniers. And it was not due to a fixed tax that he sold them so dearly. When he was silent as usual I began to talk about the sinlessness of the Anabaptists. When he had sufficiently shown his defiance, he was expelled from the city. Two days later, when he was again seized in the city, he was beaten, his books publicly burned, and he himself was told not to come again, on penalty of the gallows. This is a man or rather a beast of desperate wickedness." - John Calvin Calvin, John (1509-1564) - GAMEO
The problem is that you’ve not provided any scriptural support for these divisions, and they go about what John described in Revelation.
 
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rockytopva

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Again, where is your scriptural proof of, for example, your doctrine linking the gems on the breastplate of the high priest to the different church epochs?
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. - Daniel 12:13

How would you, then, classify the Christian lots in the last day? I have them as seven.
 
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The Liturgist

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But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. - Daniel 12:13

How would you, then, classify the Christian lots in the last day? I have them as seven.

Daniel 12:13 is clearly refers to two possibilities - salvation and damnation. It does not assign “lots” or different outcomes to different Christians from different epochs of the Church; that’s a completely unsupported eisegesis.
 
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The history of the churches matches the prophecy.

No it doesn’t. It is a gross and offensive over-simplification. It does not take into account the Church of the East, which was geographically the largest church in the world before the genocide of Tamerlane killed most of them in the 12th century, except for the Assyrians in Mesopotamia and East Syria, and the Nasranis in India. It ignores, as I pointed out, the softer Protestant churches and makes an erroneous presupposition of Calvinist dominance, when in fact the majority of Protestants were non-Calvinists, such as Lutherans, Anabaptists, Mennonites, Moravians and Anglicans.
 
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And it was explained right after.

Indeed - it is the one unambiguous part of the Apocalypse of St. John - a series of Epistles from our Lord to churches St. John the Beloved Disciple was connected with, which reproached the wicked sex cult that was founded by the apostate deacon Nicolas, whose actions constituted a diabolic attempt to give the first seven deacons ordained by the Apostles a bad name - but St. Stephen the Protomartyr’s death for Christ, being the first to shed blood for our Lord, is a crown of glory that cannot be tarnished; neither is the conduct of St. Philip the Deacon in any sense impeachable.
 
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rockytopva

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If someone wanted to point out that there were 100's of denominations and movements within the second church, all superior to mine, I would go along with that!

The Persecuted church - The Second Church - Beginning with the Apostle Paul. The Smyrnaean Church age began with the Roman Emperor Nero burning down Rome and accusing the Christians of doing it. Smyrna in the Greek means “Myrrh,” in which the Smyrnaean martyrs represented the most pure form of Christianity of all the church ages. The martyred crowns were many as the Smyrnaean church age progressed.

Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD
 
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