Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

[Stephen Kendall]

You know, when I come here to post, sometimes, I have nothing in mind to say, just to be here, soon words flow and thoughts emerge, I am wondering why God had me to start this thread, He seems to be comforting me and enriching my writing abilities. He has bless my family's home and I am grateful. My wife isn't as upset with me posting on the forums. I can now understand why I have been ill and my feet have been hurting so much (gout?), God wanted me here, so I am more encouraged to go forward. This subject of faith is not something to put an answer to and go on to other things. It is the heart of Christianity and whether we really want to admit it or not, this is true. We need the faith that Jesus can recognized when he returns to earth, the primitive faith; intact, as was, full and so very very inspiring & right! I am just a guy like any here, yet let us pray and ask God our Father together to show us His treasured faith from Jesus' chosen pillars of His Church. Have a most wonderful day in our Lord.

 

[rick357]

Paul says a strange thing...that we have the faith of the Lord Jesus...not in but of...what was his reliance...trust... expectation...that he and the Father were one...that the Father would speak and do through him his express will....our old man crucified in the cross of our Lord means the life in us comes by the Spirit as we trust him to live not just through us or with us but being one in us.

 

[Meta Tron]

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[Stephen Kendall]

Why do we seek to be right with God and stray away from the simple faith in Jesus having a one on one unique relationship with our Father through him? As I explore universalism into Unitarian beliefs as opposed to other faiths, I find similarities to my beliefs, yet I can't explore and expand to research the world and its history to find what I accept to be right with God. This easily become a life search into something that we already have in front of us, our very simple faith in Jesus and our Father, with the Holy Spirit residing in us. We know the difference between right and wrong, but the religious avenues of growing divisions of the Word, we don't know, its too big, it is a field of tares. Do we really want to take on a job that God rejected when he told his angels to leave the tares be?

We call ourselves Christians, then the proof is in the pudding, not in the field of tares. Do we love our enemies? Do we do good to those who hate & revile us? Do we help those in need around us? Do we give others the hope that we have in Jesus? These and more are like the cake, and to have fellowship here, at churches, at home, with friends & neighbors or strangers are the frosting. We are the salt of the earth, giving all around us flavor for living and hoping. If we abide in Jesus (his Word) then we are full and a beacon of light for all to come to, to find Christ. What is the ancient primitive faith, surely it isn't a researched quest of everything written and said within Christendom, but is as plain as the simple faith and trust in Jesus alone? Thank goodness that Jesus is very understandable once you get to know him.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I seem to have a short Sunday, having posted to different forums late into the night, and thus waking late this morning. I usually try to go to my wife's church on Saturdays to enjoy the company of other Christians. I find church a place to share our faith in Christ and to have fellowship together. It is inspiring and uplifting, to some though, I cause their defensive postures, I don't mean to, I just want to forward our commitment to Jesus, not to the many other things out there in Christendom.

I am trying to research universal ideas, but finding that at times that this is difficult. We already have our trust and faith in Jesus, what is the need, do I remember? How more complete are we in our futile efforts to go beyond faith and still somehow call it the same? The tree of Knowledge seems very deceptive when you try to get your fill of it. Hadn't we better stop messing with it? We are suppose to be trusting Jesus and are to eat of the tree of Life, God will give us what we need, especially to grow on. Knowledge is in Christ that is to obey him and live for him, knowledge is given by him and through the Holy Spirit. I believe that we should be content with the simple faith in Jesus and trust him against all the avenues out there going endlessly into greater divisions within Christendom.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I have reasons to believe in a very good God, so I don't need shaded glasses to believe against the bright light of God. I accept him through Jesus. I won't carry the burdens of man's theologies and endlessness of his willed knowledge. I think it is enough to carry our crosses of Christ to please him and honor him. Following him and not man's creations is best. I just happen to see and believe in a very good God and am not interested in the shades of man. I wanted to know how I will witness for Jesus. I do know now and can. It isn't by pushing the stuff of denominations, but the plain and simple Gospel of Jesus Christ. Was anything else really necessary?

However, I am curious not of the politics of belief systems, but of the primitive faith still. I really think that much of Orthodox and Unorthodox Christendom is Pagan or man's stressed out creations. However, the earliest faith had a message from Christ that I would like to know about, so that my hope to others about my faith can be spoken fully. I will try to divert from the politics of faiths & beliefs into the histories and earliest writings of Christians. It is worth it to at least get out of a research into primitive faith the answer to the question, what was it?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Reading into Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years , I came across a statement below that helps us to understand what happened to the primitive faith:


"Sweetness and Light".

Christianity was everywhere at first, a religion of "sweetness and light." The Greek fathers exemplified all these qualities, and Clement and Origen were ideals of its perfect spirit. But from Augustine downward the Latin reaction, prompted by the tendency of men in all ages to escape the exactions laid upon the soul by thought, and who flee to external authority to avoid the demands of reason, was away from the genius of Christianity, until Augustinianism ripened into Popery, and the beautiful system of the Greek fathers was succeeded by the nightmare of the theology of the medieval centuries, and later of Calvinism and Puritanism. Had the church followed the prevailing spirit of the ante-Nicene Fathers it would have conserved the best thought of Greece, the divine ideals of Plato, and joined them to the true interpretation of Christianity, and we may venture to declare that it would thus have continued the career of progress that had rendered the first three centuries so marvelous in their character; a progress that would have continued with accelerated speed, and Christendom would have widened its borders and deepened its sway immeasurably. With the prevalence of the Latin language the East and the West grew apart, and the latter, more and more discarding reason, and controlled, by the iron inflexibility of a semi-pagan secular government, gave Roman Catholicism its opportunity.

The earliest churches were obedient to Christ though they were always facing strong persecutions. Universal Salvation was a part of its acceptability, sweetness and light. Then came the flood of theologies and the unpopularity of the Gospel. So the early church was united and one with the sweetness and light of the primitive faith from Jesus' Gospel for perhaps the first 300 years. This continued but eroded for the next 200 years. Past the first 500 years comes something of our modern concept of faith. I think that persecution is probably healthy for the church and for Christian faith. Chinese Christians today are facing strong persecutions and have a beautiful faith and growth. Do they have unity & a more primitive faith?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I think that the primitive faith was full of miracles, because it was closer to the truth than what we have today. Since the primitive faith appears to have believed in universal salvation and without & before Trinity (this seems so by the majority of the priests and Christians of the primitive church because they did not accept the Trinity being pushed by a few believers of their time and didn't mention an eternal tormenting hell or even annihilation) then greater sweetness and light (truth) was within it. When you believe in God in truth (how he really is) then your prayers are heard better and miracles can come by your closer faith.

Now, with my assumption of the above paragraph, I need to verify that the primitive faith truly was the more acceptable & enlightening universal salvation and also without Trinity! This should take some researching. If this was the faith at the time and was the reason that it easily converted the masses, then why isn't this the faith of today? My youngest brother doesn't like our God as taught through main stream Christendom. I believe that he would accept God from the view of the primitive faith. Once someone has established their faith and converted, no one should really try to change how it is that they believe, if indeed they obey Jesus. This is something that I don't understand about modern Christian denominations. They seem to try to change other Christians' faith and show very little respect to them. Once a faith is established then it should remain all of their lives. So, if I preached what I may find that I believe in (universal salvation, also being void of Trinity) and convert lost souls to Jesus in this way, no one should interfere, as long as they truly follow Jesus. They would be saved without the modern faith of Christendom. What is the point of pushing this modern faith, when the primitive is better and more acceptable?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Are we trying to reconvert each other here by discussing our different faiths? I don't think that we are. I think you would call this a form of fellowship and soul searching, as long as we obey Jesus, and love each other.

If many in Christendom have already accepted and been converted (saved) by the modern faith that is prevalent within Christendom, I don't advise them to change, if they aren't under duress (or being choked by it) and are obeying Jesus with joy and hope. But if they are under stress with something not right within their heart and faith, then our discussions here can be a benefit. (I am feeling like at times that it is just I talking and little in real forum discussions).

If my manner of talking or discussing things doesn't show love and respect to those who participate here or listen. I have to say that I am making a mistake and that it would be best for us to pray about this. I seem to, on purpose, become angry or indifferent and not showing respect at times. This can be called rude. Apologies aren't very good at amending things, for sincerity seems lacking when we believe as strongly as we do. I guess this is a place for silence when speaking in a way that could offend others. So, I will try not to treat anyone here like Jesus may have treated the Pharisees with anger. We are brethren and should forgive each other. My love to all here.

 

[Meta Tron]

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[Stephen Kendall]

Meta Tron,

Thank you. I will read some.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Just a thought, but we have had everything handed down to us, as to what to believe and how to believe. Things were purified for us, as being canonized, but are we sure about the leadership of the period? There were major and minor areas of thoughts occurring that didn't ring true to the primitive faith of the period from Christ to that point.

I believe that it may be our responsibility to find this primitive faith again, to understand what it was that was closer to Jesus & our Father. I will try to read some into the ways, thoughts, beliefs and all of the primitive faith through the early fathers, leaders and writers of the period. I bet you that I won't find much in acceptance to Trinity or an eternal tormenting or annihilation of the lost Father.

I believe that the primitive faith was a huge blessing from God, perfect in everyway. If it was, then it would be easy for all Christian to know each other and be one again. I do believe that such faith would have the power of God in it and miracles would be common place again. I haven't been as impressed with miracles, except for those of a heart turning to Christ and God. Yes, I really am impressed of others, but the real miracle is a soul being found and saved. We need these real miracles.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Paul says a strange thing...that we have the faith of the Lord Jesus...not in but of...what was his reliance...trust... expectation...that he and the Father were one...that the Father would speak and do through him his express will....our old man crucified in the cross of our Lord means the life in us comes by the Spirit as we trust him to live not just through us or with us but being one in us.

Thank you rick357,

I have to slowly read what you say so condensely, but I do get the grasp of it. It is important to be one with the Spirit within us and thus with our Lord Jesus and Father. Much of what you say is said in reading the Bible and believed by many, yet the primitive faith had a clearer message that is especially needed today. How do we reach the multitudes of the Earth with errant modern faiths that turned long ago from what Jesus gave us to preach and tell the world? Converting souls is done in two ways: 1) knowledge, wisdom & reasoning (understanding what God is doing, his ways and judgments, 2) the Word of God coming from Him through Jesus Christ (message of salvation & the Gospel, and our commands & lessons). We have the Word of God, but the knowledge, wisdom & reasoning within the primitive faith has been lost. How do you convert the multitudes, if you give them errant modern faith that confuses good souls and keeps them away from their Father. It would be wonderful to go back in time to see this faith at work and to know it. I really do believe the missing parts to our modern faith is that Jesus will save all and God truly is love without a doubt, even in his justice and judgments.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

OUR Most CRITICAL NEEDby A.W. Tozer
Surely we need a baptism of clear seeing if we are to escape thefate of Israel (and of every other religious body in history that forsookGod). If not the greatest need, then surely one of the greatest is forthe appearance of Christian leaders with prophetic vision. We desperately need seers who can see through the mist. Unless theycome soon, it will be too late for this generation. And if they docome, we will no doubt crucify a few of them in the name of ourworldly orthodoxy. But the cross is always the harbinger of the resurrection.

You said a lot. Sometimes we are in a hurry in life and don't listen, maybe that is why Jesus said for our benefit, if you have ears to hear with, then listen.

Mark 4:23New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

We each need to have the courage to try and see through the mist and the courage to stand up for our beloved Father, whom Jesus stood up for. Our modern faith doesn't know the Father, only the son does, and he told his disciples. This knowledge through the chosen disciples appears to be lost and distorted.

I think it would be best that we accept martyrdom, our cross, as Jesus, not to run to it, but to accept the reality that we are Jesus' and not the world's, and that the world hated Him and will us also, we shouldn't be surprised.

Love you sister.

 

[rick357]

Brother it may be needfull to go further back than you have put forth...Paul warns that after he is gone the false teachers will come....and John plainly says that the spirit of anti-christ was allready at work in his day. With all the apostles dead by around 100 A. D. it was only a few years before the church made a schism with Judaism,and shortly ,by 140 A.D.,the heratic Marcion would find a following. Though declared a heratic many of his teachings about the Jewish cannon not being for the christian had taken hold. The list of church Fathers who honored Plato as a light for understanding scripture, despite clear warning in scripture about the wisdom of men and its enmity with God. This list would include Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr,Eusebius of Caesarea, and Augustine...this greek thinking combined into scripture was the first steps toward the christianity of our time.
If we would truely find the "primitive" faith...here is where we must look...Jesus and Paul did not teach a new faith but an old faith written from the time of Moses but hidden by the uncircumcised eyes, ears, and heart...so to find the truth of what is taught in the new testiment one must find its source in what we have called the old.

 

[barryatlake]

Stephen Kendall, OP; " Will Jesus find Faith when he returns? "

Of course He will. His Church will be here to greet Him, for Christ promised that "the gates of hell shall never prevail against it "Christ will not break His promise. ..... church is pillar/foundation of truth" [ 1 Tim. 3: 15 ]; obey Heb. 16: 17; church as final authority [Matt 18:17-18 ]

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Stephen Kendall, OP; " Will Jesus find Faith when he returns? "

Of course He will. His Church will be here to greet Him, for Christ promised that "the gates of hell shall never prevail against it "Christ will not break His promise. ..... church is pillar/foundation of truth" [ 1 Tim. 3: 15 ]; obey Heb. 16: 17; church as final authority [Matt 18:17-18 ]

You must be correct, yet wondering of this forever dividing church of Christendom, when it is suppose to be uniting, and the bitter name callings of each other (cult, lost & devils) would it be that easy for Jesus to find his church (obeying him and being this pillar and foundation of truth)? I am thinking that the church is really a spiritual bond church who obey Jesus alone. When Jesus calls them they would arise from every corner of the earth and from every denomination as well. He may have to call them to find them, for the church wouldn't be as visible as his first earliest one was.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Brother it may be needfull to go further back than you have put forth...Paul warns that after he is gone the false teachers will come....and John plainly says that the spirit of anti-christ was allready at work in his day. With all the apostles dead by around 100 A. D. it was only a few years before the church made a schism with Judaism,and shortly ,by 140 A.D.,the heratic Marcion would find a following. Though declared a heratic many of his teachings about the Jewish cannon not being for the christian had taken hold. The list of church Fathers who honored Plato as a light for understanding scripture, despite clear warning in scripture about the wisdom of men and its enmity with God. This list would include Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr,Eusebius of Caesarea, and Augustine...this greek thinking combined into scripture was the first steps toward the christianity of our time.
If we would truely find the "primitive" faith...here is where we must look...Jesus and Paul did not teach a new faith but an old faith written from the time of Moses but hidden by the uncircumcised eyes, ears, and heart...so to find the truth of what is taught in the new testiment one must find its source in what we have called the old.

I was looking for evidence of whether universal salvation was in place and the Trinity theology. These could be key areas where the original faith would have been most affected. There have been a lot of things happening within the faith in the beginning growing up with it, yet the constant dividing ones would be the horrific eternal God separations against lost souls and the confusions over Trinity theology making a mess of the Gospel. This would cause forever divisions and a not so loving God. Definitely a change in the beginning faith. I don't think that Paul thought that the primitive faith should be based in Judaism, for it was plainly decided in scripture by the writings of Paul himself and was decided by the early church with Peter present, that the new Gentle churches should not go in this way (following Judaism). However, before the Gentle churches came about, the Jews that were saved most likely did not leave the Mosaic Laws. Did the two different forms of beliefs cause a division, no. The Jewish churches welcomed those of the Gentle churches and they would help & pray for one another. The tares growing into the church took years to mess of the original faiths. These faiths were one for the Jews and one for the Gentles, yet this was acceptable to God since the early church had the authority to do this, given by Jesus. Do the churches have the authority now to divide and divide forever? No, they don't even have the primitive faith, for they don't obey Jesus, do they? (love one another and being know by this love (the core of our primitive faith)).

I believe that the tares were growing within the fabric of the church and around the leaders, yet on an individual level, these leaders could still obey Jesus and be counted as Christ's, even when one ate meat and the other was a vegetarian they could still both obey Jesus, if they chose to and to love one another. Even today with all the possible tares around the world and within the church, the tares do not rule, we can simply obey Jesus anyway and should. What matters is Jesus and following him, not following things that have evidence of tares in them (the tares forces followers to disregard Jesus' commands).

Could it be good the the church keeps dividing since it was ok at the beginning with the Gentles? No, division now is unwarranted and authority isn't there, since the churches are not obeying Jesus' commands & teachings, and don't have the primitive faith anymore.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Will be busy tomorrow and Christmas day. I will try to post here, but, if not, have a wonderful Day in the Lord every day, including the one chosen day to honor the coming of our Lord to the Earth, inwhich the angels sang in heaven in celebration. Let us sing together also and honor him on this chosen day of such celebration. Love everyone here.

 

[FredVB]

When Christ returns, it will be in Yahweh's judgment on the unrepentant sinners of this world for the wickedness, and destructive harm to the earth. Even with any believers removed already from that, there will be believers in this world at that time, with there being abundant testimony for that to be so. And with many of the rebellious being put to death, with their coming against him (crazy as it is to come against Yahweh God!), there will be people left, some still of the unrepentant, and what believers there will be, to be under Christ's rule and reign in this world, while Satan is removed being kept captive.

Yet the body of believers, those still having the faith of the gospel of Christ, still are in churches that have developed and changed in many ways since churches in Christ began. Many virtues mentioned for us in the new testament of the Bible are neglected by many. We don't seem to have any churches, as far as I know, doing just what the first church, in Jerusalem, did, with being under the apostles and with the believers filled with the Spirit of Yahweh, which is modeled for us and our churches, with it shown in the book of Acts. How much observance among us is there of all that was for all believers, Jews and gentiles, from the apostles and Yahweh's Spirit, in the 15th chapter?

May you have blessing with being mindful of meaning with Christ having come, it was all for us, and the reconciliation that was being made available.