Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

[Colter]

If I had a row of blueberries to hoe, plow and take care of, even bring it out of the weeds, I can handle that, however if the job was a billion billion rows of blueberries, whose job would that be? Universal salvation isn't cheap or free, it a bigger job than anyone would want. Jesus' job would be too much for me to imagine. Really universal salvation is an extreme job even for Jesus, yet be it that God desires that no man remains lost, God can do this huge work and we can help, can we not? A rosy rosy heaven may not even be Heaven at all. Does anyone who follows Christ want a single soul to remain lost, so that they can have their own wonderful endless Heaven? I don't think that is who the saved are, but its not that they don't rejoice with Christ and God either. A universal job of salvation continues until the billion billion rows are finished, this is God's universe, I would be so lucky as to be able to help some.

Would not sin be more shameful being the terrible efforts that saved souls would put in to save so many unfortunate lost ones? Could such a job helping God & Christ ever be accomplished? Yes, when Peter spoke at Pentecost, thousands were saved, and the number added on each day afterwards. When Jesus went to the underworld (world of dead) after his crucifixion, he preached to them. I am not sure what that means, but he cared for the dead people and their souls.

All of this sounds odd, but it would match the teachings of Christ the type of creature that we would be by obeying and following him. Heaven is still Heaven, but wouldn't we be a part of fulfilling the desire of God that none would be lost and unsaved? Many self-centered Christians might say, "we didn't sign up for that". I would think that Christians would want to please God if they loved him, and loved their neighbors and their fellowman.

Things seem well enough as people believe in eternal tormenting Hell and a perfect no-worry eternal Heaven, yet if someone becomes God's, they would be a new creature like Jesus. The caring and giving doesn't just end blissfully and the self-centeredness begins for all eternity, as becoming part of God's family. We were given this training by Jesus to follow him and become like him for a reason. Heaven will still be a most wonderful place with our Lord God and his Son. Is work to never end, you might ask? Rejoicing is an attachment of work done for God. We were saved by grace and faith, yet being alive means to do something, what better thing than to love others and help them.

Choice is inherent in life, there is no recollection in eternal death. It becomes as if they never existed. That is the fate of Lucifer and all of his devotes.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Choice is inherent in life, there is no recollection in eternal death. It becomes as if they never existed. That is the fate of Lucifer and all of his devotes.

I could go with your annihilation idea, if God did not want to accomplish saving all and all would not bend their knees to Jesus. Annihilation seems merciful but not fulfilling as the more difficult eventuality of saving every one.

I am a bit sleepy, will check to see what you have to say tomorrow, Colter, have a good night.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Carry on Stephen, some on these forums are only here to make sure what they think is how it really is. Not to carry on conversations in the love of Christ most times.
Like you, I know when the walls of time are forever broken down we will all see eye to eye.

Thank you for your encouragement.

Sometimes, people, including myself, forget that all the answers are coming (in the blink of an eye upon our sleep) and also that God doesn't need our defense, he needs our obedience to his son Jesus Christ. Sometimes people believe that the Gospel isn't what Jesus told us, but what men have developed and commanded unto us. I really can't understand why someone would accept Jesus and then allow themselves to be brainwashed into forgetting who is in charge and his orders & commands to them. This is happening on a wide scale all around the world, as though we aren't saved unless we are someone's else's first. However, the opposite is true, we are personally saved and have all sufficiency by the reception of God's Holy Spirit to be our helper and teacher forever.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

There is a big problem with Eternal Torment in our Faith in God, but there is another one with our faith and that is with the second not as harsh belief of Annihilation. In Annihilation belief, It seems to work, but there is the possibility that we could get out of line, since we will have freewill forever and then get annihilated ourselves for being much less than perfect for some reason in the future. That should bother people being as a family of God. Only Jesus knows the Father, he has the answers, we will meet him very soon for us older souls and a little later for the younger ones.

With universal salvation, we seem to put God into the picture that fits how we are to conduct ourselves taught by Jesus. Nothing seems evil, hypocritical or confusing, it is just a lot more hard work, doesn't sound like being in Heaven if we are to still be concerned with the lost. Yet this yearning of saved ones and concern for the punishment of the lost, would only be an advocate for loving others and wanting God's desire that all will be saved by Jesus' sacrifice to come true. I don't think it would be a rebellion to trust God and believe in him, and desire healing and salvation for all. The first thing that any saved person must do is to trust God and follow & obey Jesus. Going the extra mile and hope for the salvation of the condemned and punished and be willing to help them should not be considered a rebellion. Our patience in trusting God and supporting his desire to save all through Jesus is just that, our hope and desire of God's in the first place. Living & waiting patiently for an eon and willing to sacrifice and preach the Gospel to those in punishment is not a betrayal, but a request and desire for reconciliation and salvation for the lost in their terrific judgment.

This is hard to figure out. I will try to read a lot into the actual ideas within the subject of universal salvation, most likely they will be a bit varied since I am speaking of personal researches with others into this idea, and not any organization. When things get a bit organized, where is free will and personal relationships with our Father in Heaven gone? The thing that seems to happen when people try to know it all, is that they must control, even controlling the thinking of its group. We are a Family, not a controlled group! There is no such thing as organized genuine love. Sounds like machine love with conditional parameters. Families who are taught by Christ, are guided by their faith in Jesus with respect to each other, knowing that they follow Jesus alone. This is going into diverse tangents and not seeming to be very solid. Sorry, let me have some civil, useful and objective thoughts in this if any have some here.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Der Alter:

I posted this on another thread in Christianforums.com Unorthodox section for you recently and was wanting a response from you, if you could. I believe that you posted your definition here in this thread as well. Usually when you go to a dictionary, the most common definition is put first then, another less common one goes next and then right on to the least. It seems what you posted is proof of these words from Greek are first thought to mean agelong and not eternal. Is this correct?

Quote from Der Alter:

"Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1)."

It seems to me that agelong is age long and not eternal and it is listed before eternal and should be the first most used definition from the source that you are quoting. Is that correct?

It is important when studying or researching to not have any bias, but I understand that we naturally do have some built-in that is hard to control. Please correct me in this specific area, if I am wrong, and please talk, not copy/paste in bold letters to throw me off. In the forums, we must be willing to be open, civil, objective, real-time discuss things and should be Christ-like. Have a great day sir.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Everyone have a most wonderful day. I am a bit under the weather this day, but will get the rest needed. Follow our Lord Jesus and meditate upon his words and those inspired by him in Scripture. May our Lord Jesus & our Father in Heaven bless each of you and Christianforums.com

 

[Stephen Kendall]

It is too bad that one very well made post for our Lord could just fix things in the Christian Faith, but the battle rages until our deaths. Death is the sweetness of answers, since the fog and evil one are removed to just the presence of God & Christ only, yet we each should rely on our hope and faith in Christ to be with God & Christ now. We need to re-emphasize the faith of doing what Jesus told us to in his commands and teachings, and just be patient with our lack of knowledge. Jesus said that if we love him, that we will obey his commands. Our knowledge is extremely deficient if we don't know his ministry, teachings and commands. This is where ignorance causes the most trouble. Ignorance of man's ideas isn't harmful like ignorance of Jesus' commands. Yet, in man's established Christian faith (or take-over Christian faith) of man's purposed knowledge is vital before we take up the task of our faith in Jesus. It is so vital, that Christians are denied being called real Christians (as here in this forum) until they join in man's created knowledge of totally accepting Trinity and the Niacin Creed, even though they follow Jesus and obey him. It seems odd that those who obey Jesus without the purposed knowledge of man are second class people, are not really Christian. I would indeed worry about being first class real Christians when it is man who has made up this system. Organized majority sounds ok, but are the organized leaders really obeying Christ' commands and love God and their fellowman? Do they really have this truth that they claim and why are they putting it before our Faith in Jesus.

There is not an organized church that I know of that is without man's authority over your faith. I have been to a lot of Churches and before long, I seem to be stepping on people's toes when I support Jesus' commands and teachings. I am suspect of wrong, because of my refusal to join in the things of man's mind over that of Christ (believing in Trinity, eternal torment, Niacin Creed, or with some others' the use of names, days, foods, clothes or specific theology). The Church system of long ago decided what made up Christianity and our faith, but did they not believe in Jesus & God, because following Christ and having the Holy Spirit made our faith very sufficient, period. Faith isn't from organized religion, but is from a personal relationship with Jesus & our Father in Heaven through/with the Holy Spirit. Organized church faith should be subordinate to our real faith in Jesus, not taking it over. The early churches were responsible for the faith based things going on within the early body of Christians, not actually dictating the very essence of our personal relationship with Jesus & God. The real need of the organized church is when Christians work together to accomplish Jesus' commands and acts as a refuge from the world in prayers, testimonies, songs and searching God's word. It was an organized church of carrying out the love of Christ to its brethren and the world.

One plain simple statement:

When Jesus returns "he will find faith on the earth, if he finds his faithful actually being faithful obeying him and living out their lives loving their brethren and their fellowman, thus loving their Father in Heaven by this their perfect love."

What is perfect love? If we obey Jesus completely, we have perfect love and can see God and have Jesus' peace within us and our churches. Jesus' commands are many times more difficult than simply saying we believe in the Niacin Creed, Trinity or other ideas of man's creations. Jesus gave us perfect love examples. They involve letting go of the world. With man's ideas, you sort of can't have perfect love, but a substitute formula will most likely work within man's thought of God's Framework, laid out in the Bible (besides Christ's way). The problem is who's faith does ours belong to man's attempts or the divine guidance from Jesus Christ? Perfect love is very possible and can easily come about, it just isn't belonging to the world. It abandons the world, much unlike that of man's created ideas for our Faith. Come on, wake up, who are you following anyway?

I know that I don't have perfect love, for I haven't followed Christ the way that we are to have it, but do you think that I will follow the second rate man-made way to God? Just because our faiths are weak and we haven't listened to Jesus completely (to obtain perfect love) isn't a reason to let man take over our beautiful and personal faith in our Father in Heaven through his son Jesus Christ, our Lord. This sounds like a crossroad. How many of us have ever tried to have perfect love and so perfect faith? All you have to do is stand for Christ and for some this may mean to give up all. I won't say that we should attempt to give up everything to be perfect, but we do need to give up the things that separate us from God. How are we going to stand for Christ, if there are things in our lives that mean more than he? Does this make any sense? Please someone make a comment, speak up, please!

Thank you for taking time to listen. Please, this is a Christian discussion, we are searching together. Can anyone speak freely without fear of being labelled by man's dominance over our faith in Jesus?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

This idea of the real faith in Jesus, meaning to understand the Wrath of God that we convey to the lost souls in our attempt to give the Gospel of Christ accurately, was discussed in another forum listed below. The reason that I use this here is for us to realize that there is much logical thought to deal with in grasping our message as best as we can. Another way of saying this is that two heads (Christian heads) are better than one. (Not much debate or friendly honest and open discussion is going on here.)

Pasted below is in discussion of a thread in JesusChristians.com forum (this discussion started with spruikah's post, two posts above this one):
(link: http://jesuschristians.com/forum/4-everything-else/43186-discussion-vs-posting-links?start=20#43818 )


I guess that I want to put my two cents in here as well. Nobody is going to think lightly of the Almighty's punishment whether it is annihilation, forever torment or in the form of whatever torment period. It all sounds uninviting. Second chances sounds good, but the punishment comes to all who sin and not repent and turn to Christ. Saved is really a fascinating word when understood through Jesus. It is a known happening when the soul is totally changed. Would a soul believing in universal salvation be any differently saved than one not believing such? Would the lost warned of God's wrath and judgment be any less knowledgeable of pain and suffering to come, for it is still coming, for God has said it is. (Believing in annihilation may not allow for the pain and suffering punishment promised by God, and thus doesn't sounds plausible.)

Our message to the lost is still the Wrath of God and punishment promised to come which we must agree to is with pain and suffering (annihilation doesn't follow / is omitted here). So, would the lost keep living in sin when they hear that universal salvation mean that they will live any way? No way, does the sound of the wrath of God make one easy going? The lacking information about universal salvation is what is the punishment period when it is called a God moment (eon)? Does anyone want to face God in his punishment period? I believe that if we preached either way to the lost they would benefit for both have truth behind them, for an eon of pain is beyond comprehension for us time conscious humans. Yet, there is one real difference between the two messages. One speaks of justice that is a Godly (eon) and satisfies the pure form of justice requirements of punishment, and speaks of the other side of justice, Godly accepted payment of sin outside of Christ' sacrifice (this doesn't sound right). For this reason, universal salvation doesn't sound proper either. We are left to being ignorant, yet we do at least know that within a person's lifetime there is faith/hope in Jesus and salvation.

I am messed up as how are we to preach the word of God when we don't really have it? At least, we should warn people of being lost and a wrath of God to come (justice, judgment and punishment (to the extent we just don't honestly know for sure, it really is bad, that is all, annihilation is the least of the bad and so maybe doesn't qualify to be bad enough)). We need to be bright shinning lights in this perversed world. We need to be living in the Kingdom of Heaven now! Maybe, others outside will come knocking and ask us how to come in.

It seems to me that we should all be in agreement of our universal ignorance, is that right? I don't want to make lite of this, but you can continue to go over and over, and then get to retirement age, feeling only the awe of an awesome God, and just giving up, or you can realize right now, that our message is both a real warning as best as we can give and the beautiful gift of Christ to be forgiven and become God's children.

It seems that the faith that Christ would recognize to be his is for us to be honest to start with (we just don't know what he meant and said 2,000 years ago about some things especially about the wrath of God (judgment & Hell)) and then to actually be following him (not line of verse outside of the Bible from the minds and lips of men) and then obeying his beautiful commands and teachings, and of course spreading these words to the whole world. All of this would be recognizable to Jesus, as long as we follow him and deeply love one another and our neighbors, even if they are our enemies. Does everyone agree? We need to converse and talk about things here. This is serious and it is our faith, and this is a real forum, though the rules and tyranny of the leading body of faith can sort of do what it pleases to discussions, posts and members here. Trying to post within the rules and still discuss with openness would be pleasing to God and Christ, for we know that something is wrong with status quo. Be a part of the conscience, honesty and search within our faith for Jesus & our Father, to be able to follow Christ alone, to be his alone and to be saved by him alone; since no organization, man or woman, theology or man's command, or made up God can save you. The faith that Jesus will see here on Earth isn't the homebrewed one of man's attempt, but the original faith of following, obeying & trusting Jesus alone.

 

[James Is Back]

I think the question isn't will Jesus find Faith when he returns but when will people find Faith in Jesus now?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I know that a lot of us spend quite a few hours here in heart felt discussions /or readings of posts within this Christian community. This has got to be seen as time well spent, for it is our attempt to serve God in our search of him as a body of believers. It is fellowship at times and can be very confusing or even depressing at other times, but maybe never meant to be. We feel too strongly about our point of views that we have accepted. There is no point of view that differs amongst us about whether we follow the King and Lord first over following all other things, right? So our faith should have a standing that is common and one, yet when we go to our 2,000 year created points of views which involve the ideas of men, we easily fall away from following Christ and then maybe hating one another, trying to save the saved of God all over again. What gives? Isn't God able to save us, as long as we obey and follow his Son, Jesus Christ? We will be one body of believers once again. It is coming; (behind a great persecution, maybe not, since the power of God will be at work perhaps ahead of that of man's evils). It would be interesting to see what would happen all around the world with people listening to the Holy Spirit in their hearts and souls, and truly following the Lord like the way it was in the beginning. Our faith must be discovered as one faith having one Lord, King and God. We must be able to see & respect each other, then we can love one another and truly go to church together as one. This would truly be a most wonderful day.

Thank you for listening, may our Father in Heaven bless each one here and Christianforums.com .

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I think the question isn't will Jesus find Faith when he returns but when will people find Faith in Jesus now?

We talk, listen, give testimonies, edify one another, lift up the least and love them, and we wait unto the Lord to heal us as his body of faithful ones under Jesus. We can unite with sincerity, even with our ignorance since God is able and willing to hold us and care for those of his Son's.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Has anyone noticed a real possibility that God can use the internet, even the forums, to create his true body of followers of Christ, bringing back the original church all around the world, almost at the same time across the language barriers, theology barriers, countries' barriers and even legal barriers (to create by the true freedom of the internet, his Church)?

 

[James Is Back]

Has anyone noticed a real possibility that God can use the internet, even the forums, to create his true body of followers of Christ, bringing back the original church all around the world, almost at the same time across the language barriers, theology barriers, countries' barriers and even legal barriers (to create by the true freedom of the internet, his Church)?

God can use anything He wants to serve His purpose and Will. He even uses Satan(remember Job).

 

[Stephen Kendall]

God can use anything He wants to serve His purpose and Will. He even uses Satan(remember Job).

I don't think that Satan has as much power over the internet Christian Community as God does, because of its unrestrained freedom (thus far), except for the controlling rules within forums (which are actually useful, as long as there is a place for the Unorthodox groups to speak). Could God be using Satan and his tares here in the forums to bring us all together and get his real Gospel back on track (Jesus' words, commands and teachings, alone)?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Being content and thankful like this Holiday speaks is good for the faithful of Christ.

Much of man's search for knowledge of God seems as ill spent as his earliest turning from God for his quest of knowing as him in the Garden of Eden. We need to be believing in Jesus and set aside this quest of figuring Him out. Our so-called knowledge of Him will not help us or save us, but it is believing in Jesus and following him that we find the peace and comfort to help.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Been busy with turkey and family, I hope to be back here soon. I want to explore universal salvation ideas, websites and also the implications with the sacrifice of the lamb of God, our Lord. This could take some time. If universal salvation is real, it will make sense with Jesus' sacrifice, as well as God's day of wrath, judgment & his coming justice. It would be nice that it made sense, but even I am not interested in wearing rosy glasses to help my faith in Jesus & God. My faith doesn't need help, but it would be nice to understand better what I should be teaching of the Gospel.

Have great Thanksgiving Holidays with family & friends, or even in your work for the Lord, good night.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Our faith should be one in Christ, yet the amount of Christian influence covered over 2,000 years of history and across the world in different nations, languages, customs and cultures is staggering. What can pull us together is the simple faith of having received from God the word of his son Jesus and to follow him, obeying him and trusting in him alone. Is it possible that Jesus' words from his Father made it to us, though corruption covered some of the Bible, Christian leaders, churches, theologies and seemingly even the saints? If God preserved the less wanted and less politically influential words of Jesus, then we have what we need (the trash of Satan (it is rubbish to flesh) the commands of Jesus and his teachings)).

I am trying to go over what I can find out about the history of universal salvation and its ideas how they work with the lamb of God and God's wrath, judgment and justice. This is like the beginning of an eight year search. I don't have the time for this, but I will search with God in mind, it may not be so thorough, but it will be to seek his inspirations and to share these with others. You know to seek God, we need to do this by being sure that we are obeying Jesus every day in every thing and thought that we have. These histories, theologies and inspirations can be a benefit, but salvation is through Jesus, believing him, following him and obeying him. I really do believe that God has tricked Satan and delivered his Word (his son's Gospel) to us intact within the battlefields of the Bibles, theologies, leaderships and faiths. It would make sense for everyone to be able to hear Jesus and let the rest of those distracted away from the Gospel to go their own direction with their imperfect hearts.

 

[Norah63]

In post 115 you sound like knowledge and believing are at odds.
When I know something it is a settled thing. For me belief is a step towards agreement.
Even the demons believe and tremble, but they dont agree. They resist and rebel.
Just some random thoughts........

 

[Anto9us]

" the history of universal salvation and its ideas "

chronologically maybe you should start with Origen

and get all the way up thru William Barclay - who was a Universalist

Origen is a complicated individual -- cursed as seeing the scriptures as too allegorical and NOT LITERAL ENOUGH

yet he certainly saw the commandment that "if anything offends you - cut it off and throw it way" as extremely literal (he emasculated himself to get rid of lust)

perhaps his contributions to Trinity and "the eternally-begetting of Christ the Son" might not be to your liking

yet he in places held out a universalism -- not only for all MEN --

but even the demons and Satan!

he was posthumously excommunicated a couple centuries after his death on some trumped-up charge or another

not many early Fathers could pull off a stunt like that

good luck on yer eight year mission -

"To seek out new life and new civilizations -
to boldly go where no man has gone before!"

Note that is grammatically incorrect -- it should be "to go boldly"

yeah -- Capt Kirk

SPLIT AN INFINITIVE !!!

(gasp - somebody get a rope!)

 

[Stephen Kendall]

In post 115 you sound like knowledge and believing are at odds.

Being content and thankful like this Holiday speaks is good for the faithful of Christ.

Much of man's search for knowledge of God seems as ill spent as his earliest turning from God for his quest of knowing as him in the Garden of Eden. We need to be believing in Jesus and set aside this quest of figuring Him out. Our so-called knowledge of Him will not help us or save us, but it is believing in Jesus and following him that we find the peace and comfort to help.

When I know something it is a settled thing. For me belief is a step towards agreement.
Even the demons believe and tremble, but they dont agree. They resist and rebel.
Just some random thoughts........

.

I have had a problem with man's quest for knowledge ever since reading about the Garden of Eden's tree of knowledge. It would seem better to have a quest for obedience to Jesus (our only real first hand knowledge of God). Obeying him allows for our faith to be real and then we have God within us. This quest of knowledge that man has, seems to side step the importance of following Christ. So many people here, including myself at times, seems to seek knowing God, but not realizing that we already do, if we accept and follow him, our Lord Jesus. We too often keep up the arguing and debating till the day we depart, while putting the real quest aside of having Him within us by our love for him, following & obeying his son.

If that doesn't explain or clear up my rather complex emotions and thoughts, I'll try again, if you please, to convey what I believe that I meant by my chosen words.