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By all means everyone should research everything for themselves but I recommend that they not go to universalist websites where they will only get a one sided skewed view ..
You lack of knowledge is showing loud and clear. Plato lived about 428 years BC! Philo lived ca. 50 years BC! And both document tha the Greek words aion/aionios meant forever, eternal, unending, everlasting, etc.
How do you feel personally about your Bible said it and that is that, without thought of our God-given ability to know right from wrong, eternal punishment for being lost soul? We are mindless robots to not think for ourselves. We are made in the image of Good and so must fear God and not ideas of the Bible is infallible (it said so), yet being in the image of God should we not be able to discern like God. I am too sleepy to continue now.
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I am sure organized Orthodox Christian Denominations are objective and bias free, a sure bet for research, right?
You are right. That is what you get for speed reading in your sleepiness, sorry. I do remember reading that Plato didn't use the word as forever, but as an eon and like I have said expanded or enhanced it with forever or eternal. Is that right with your recollection?
PS: After getting some rest, I'll try to review your post and try to respond.
. . . CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
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NIDNTT Colin BrownWherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning. . . .
I suppose that it is my job to support a difference of opinion here from that held by Orthodox Christianity and this is for the sake of making a faith that doesn't have a choking effect on Christians over how we equate as a loving God with the commands of Christ that will not conflict with God's Judgments and Punishments. It is the Orthodox's view of God being less than a loving God because of the place that is said that he puts souls to be tormented and suffer punishment forever, where the worm dies not.
(Please go with me on this, but if you don't understand my statements, I will try to make them clearer).
I could believe in a God that totally destroys a soul, yet that goes against my faith in God and his son Jesus, for I believe that there is something bigger here than what appears on the surface. I also believe that God intends for us to discover him in this matter that we have been talking about and will discuss.
Wycliffe's version, the first translation into English, did not use the words "forever and ever." Several versions in modern English do not use those words either: The Emphasized Bible, by J.B. Rotherham; The N. T., A Translation, by E.L. Clementson; The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson; Young's Literal Translation, by Professor Robert Young; and The Concordant Literal New Testament, by A.E. Knoch as well as others.
Why did the authors above leave out those important Orthodox words, forever and ever, in context with Hell, a place of torment, in writing their Bibles?
Each day, I will try to answer some responses and/or add another thought for the day. I am sure that this could go on for a very long time (but only if that is alright with CF).
We are still counted as being Christian and can post here, just as long as we don't post in the orthodox area! Well, I'm back and feeling like the Faith is evermore clearer in my heart and mind. Would anyone be willing to check it out some?
You can find all the potency of my message here that I wrote a few minutes ago in another forum (http://jesuschristians.com/forum/4-...iation-library-of-rodger-tutt?start=110#43700
Please be patient and read into this. I have put into bold print an invitation to all. I will be glad to explain more of what I am trying to convey, if you have both the patience to ask and have me to explain. I was rather shocked at what I realized has been already in my heart and mind with this concept (the Faith from Jesus Christ) and that I had remembered reading God's words throughout the Scriptures about this purpose and love of his for us. How could it all get so screwed up over the years (our salvation through Jesus)? If you are not interested and glued to the orthodox belief, then by no means stay here. Go back over to the TRUE CHRISTIAN AREA (ORTHODOX ONLY), but if you are patience and curious about the true nature of God, whom Christ said that only he knows, then you are on the right thread.
The title of this thread is universal salvation (noticed that universal was not capitalized?, it is just a word with a meaning and that is all). Please explore and talk to me about this. Here is one of the best places to start: absolute assurance in jesus christ In this page and pass Four Views of the Good News of Jesus Christ you may get the reaction that I did when reading the word of God (just below: IV. The Good News of Christs Total Victory) , WOW! I seem to always have known this Faith after all. The Peace moved in. Happy adventure.
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rodgertutt wrote:
I found this link very helpful.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
I guess the best word in my mind to express how I feel about visiting this website is WOW! I think more people should check it out. I realize from all that I have read in the Bible that God indeed is saying one thing throughout it, salvation is for all and all will come to Him. That sure sounds sweeter than the bitter things that have crept into our Christian Faith (Christendom's general faith).
Why would anyone want to spoil the message that God gave us, that is especially from Jesus Christ, throughout the Bible? To win more souls and gain more political power by scaring them or was it just an honest mistake that took off gliding down the years into the mess that most all of organized Christianity is in?
Yet now I am wondering about our commitment to Jesus, if we believe in Universal salvation, is it still serious? What if we are about to be beheaded if we don't convert to Islam and worship Allah, would we have the strength to disowned this world and go to the next one with our Lord, or would we say, "oh well, we will be saved, surely God would not want us to suffer would he?" To me it would be to fulfill our faith and be with our Lord Jesus Christ, but to many there could be second guessing wanting to stay here longer. And of course, we being human, what about all that pain and suffering (if it were a slower torturous death)? Still I understand that the Truth isn't put aside for increasing numbers, sustaining numbers or any other gains, but it is the sweetness of being in the Faith, knowing our Father through Jesus Christ (truly universal salvation). Even Jesus had to drink that bitter cup. Surely, he understands us and through his Spirit would be with us at such a time. This is where our real humility comes in, being in the Faith. Now the passage of Christ about coming back to the Earth, "would he find Faith still on it?" Faith through understanding universal salvation is greatly lacking and missing. That is truly Faith in Christ & God, is it not?
By the way, if too many of you start moving over to this smaller un-orthodox area, I might be silenced or warned (again) (or maybe banned!).
. . .
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm . . . ....
People around the world are being tortured, burned, imprisoned, beheaded, and made to starve for their faith. Right now. Still, God told all of those who are "wise" that despite this, we would all receive a bit of "help" from Him - like, you may be in tremendous pain, but it will either be just at your threshold, or at a deeper threshold you never knew existed.
If we are talking at the end when Christ comes, I would guess 1% would have the faith.
People around the world are being tortured, burned, imprisoned, beheaded, and made to starve for their faith. Right now. Still, God told all of those who are "wise" that despite this, we would all receive a bit of "help" from Him - like, you may be in tremendous pain, but it will either be just at your threshold, or at a deeper threshold you never knew existed.
If we are talking at the end when Christ comes, I would guess 1% would have the faith.
It may not yet be as bad as you suggest. There may be up to 200,000,000 new Chinese converts in the underground Churches (many of whom are persecuted). I would say their Faith is real with being known for their love for one another. This is true with a lot of new growing Christian territories around the world, like millions in the middle to northern nations of Africa who also face persecutions. I would say 30 to 40 percent of the 1 billion known Christians of Earth probably have real faith (known by their love for one another). We really don't know how many of the other 60 to 70 percent of the billion are following Christ (known by their love for one another). The narrow & straight pathway isn't anything about theological correctness, but simply obeying the teachings and commands of Jesus Christ. You won't get there by smarts, not even the smarts of a lawyer of theology. A person faces Jesus with one question, did you follow Jesus or something else (including the something else as being the spiritual leaders who aren't following Jesus). If I were a leader and teacher, I could only support and make known the teachings and commands of our Lord Jesus, yet I must say of my heart assuring others that God is righteous, love, truth and the universal hope of all. I could never imagine saying many of the theological things about him or his son.
I believe for all who suffer for the Gospel and God & Christ are comforted by the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus himself is with them. There has been lately a free book called "Tortured for Christ" given at the Voice of the Martyrs website. There are many more modern day martyrs than of long ago; not here in the US, but many of the hostile areas where Christianity is growing in number, much like in the days of the Roman Empire. (A martyr is one who suffers for Christ & the Gospel, not just dying for him, yet they are willing to die).
Have a good day "CryOfALion". May our Lord bless and keep you always.
Continuing:
There is a real fear that if the Christian persecution should ever end, what would happen to faith in Christianity? Would it become much like the 60 to 70 percent who may not be known by their love for one another? There is a fast coming age to the world that may greatly reduce wars, sufferings and the needs of people. I hope to be writing a book soon that will talk about this period which may start as soon as 10 to 20 years from now. I probably won't be around or would care that much being in my 80's, yet I can see that it is coming. This is when the faith that Jesus speaks of may come where people think that they need their theologies, not caring for the teachings and commands of Christ, for the only persecutions that may be happening will be between the theological Christian camps one against the other (major order (Orthodox vs Unorthodox), major sub orders and etc.). In this coming enlightenment age, you may ask, "who is following the teachings & commands of Christ, and who is known by their love for one another?"
There will always be those whom love God & obey Jesus, and yes to the dismay of Orthodox or other groups and beliefs, there will be those whom love God & obey Jesus and not even know who they are.
Thank you for listening.
Sometimes the debating amongst Christians who are supposed to be unity disappoints me. But for me, it took me a decade plus of literal nonstop seeking before I could consider myself decently versed and cognizant of His word - the meaning. So, in the end He will correct all of us who respond to it.
It is just the "progress" between that is unfortunate. In this coming age, people won't have the luxury of armchair, ambivalent faith. It will be sufficiently tested by fire. And, this doesn't mean physio torture necessarily. The trauma of seeing the world as you know it violently end is enough to rock faith. Noah didn't start drinking and planting vineyards in overdrive until after he saw the world end. His son, though deemed worthy to escape the flood faltered in faith and tried to usurp Noah's patriarchy by having relations with Noah's wife (which most likely was not Ham's bio mother.)
So, I am worried, but not worried.
(Thanks for sharing.)
Have many heard of wycliffe.org. ? I read a book once about a young man who join it as a translator. They are very dedicated organization on spreading the good news of the Gospel through translating the language of people into a written form and then translating the Bible into their language. This is dangerous work, as in the book, the young man was killed for what his organization did and what he intended to do to spread the Gospel in South America. The reason that I bring this up, the organization doesn't seem to have a theology purpose, but to obey the commands of Christ to spread the word to every people on the planet, especially those who don't even have a written language to read the Bible in.
Wycliffe organization does have a Bible, its own creation dating back to , but perhaps you should do a hair bit of research and not let the status quo own the researching for you. Here is a link to some very interesting Christian history in which you will find the following in and more:
"The first hand-written English language Bible translation was produced circa 1380 AD by John Wycliffe, an Oxford professor, scholar and theologian. Wycliffe translated it from the Latin Vulgate, which was the only source text available to him. Pope Martin V was so infuriated by the activities of Wycliffe and his translation of the Bible into English such that 44 years after Wycliffes death, he ordered the bones of Wycliffe to be dug-up, crushed and scattered in a river!"
Thank you for posting a response, I am sorry to not have read much of some of your previous post. I may one day.
What you have posted has merit, yet if there is an ounce of merit contrary supporting the version of a kinder God, there will be a following, for people who are taught to be loving, kind, not judging, forgiving, caring and to be holy, and they obey Jesus' commands, aren't likely to believe in a God who hypocritically makes Hell and stokes it's fires forever tormenting it occupants eternally. I am not sure why you must believe this also, since it seems that you do? If God is that way and He chooses his own people, then there may be some obedient Christian followers who are too good to be saved, for they have higher expectations of God than he has of them. Where is He going to put them? If I were that good, I would be so disappointed that it wouldn't seem to matter. I am being sober.
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