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Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

Stephen Kendall

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Where is your evidence that the Bible has been tampered with? Do you happen to know that our OT is virtually identical to the manuscripts found at Qumran/DSS dating to 100 BC? So when did this tampering allegedly occur? About 90% of the NT can be reconstructed from the citations in the ECF in the first 300 years of the Christian era. So when did the tampering allegedly occur?

I apologize for not being more precise in what I have been trying to say here, it is not the Torah or Old Testament that I am concerned with, for I agree to their near perfection, but it is the tare laden New Testament. I only know what I have read from other sources about it.

Your study of Desiderius Erasmus (notable figure of Christendom's History) would supply you with a death bed confession about his tampering of his writing of the New Testament (the Comma)(which seems to withstand some of our modern day brittle objectivity by being still accepted).

Translations of the Greek Scriptures through the ages into our present use of English on a very key point of the universal salvation idea in the words dealing with eternal and forever (Greek into our understandable language of use) would give you another tampering of the New Testament. A resource in this area of discussion is AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

These very deliberate and quite small yet extremely significant tamperings by the Tares is both evident and dangerous for our Faith. Don't you agree? From such forced will over God's gift to us, knowledge of Christ that is very real and potent, Christendom is nearly torn into pieces with disobedience to one of Jesus' great last commands to us, "to be known by our love for one another". I can obey that command, not that I am better than others, but I see what is going on, yet it isn't my desire to upset you or others about these things, should we not be open minded and obeying the real commands of Christ and the real Gospel of his? If the battles are in Heavenly places, better be sure that the parable of Jesus' about the Tares is very real and they have been growing up with the churches for a very long time.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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Then perhaps you should confine your discussions to how you interpet scripture vs. how some specific person or group inteprets the same scripture and refrain from making insulting broad brush charaterizations of "Orthodox Christianity."

You are correct in this and so I apologize again for being out of line. You must admit though, that I did get your attention. That seems to be one of the things about trying to reach people with news.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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Stephen do you believe that all will be saved and reconciled with God even satan?

I see a very tough road ahead for saving all of creation, but with God, all things are not only possible, but his will will be done. I don't envy the souls out there trying to reach every lost one. Yet such a job is very honorable, for it is Christ's foremost. I would like to try to save even the satans out there, but only after others were saved and only if indeed it were God's will. I am sure that satan gets the toast somewhere within the New Testament writings (be they tampered with or not in this area), but I am not one to put him there, I only pray that, yes, every soul and all of creation be saved, even as the Scripture declares (surely the Scriptures are not against the Scriptures are they?). I believe that even this extreme wayward soul will be brought out of his despair. If death will be done away with, I am sure that torture and despair can too.

I am only new to universal salvation. I have always believed in God despite the teachings of Hell and everlasting torture, not that I believed in him allowing this, but that I trust and believe in him. I didn't dwell on such an evil concept, but I didn't like what I heard others speaking this of him. To be taught to be loving and kind will not be hypocritically induced to believe such evil conduct.

Tell me what you think of AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS or just check out these Greek words and what they meant in the Greek language. Their translation makes one of the largest impacts on Christianity, since people revere the Bible being infallible.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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Stephen, [/b]n, have you read 'the quest, by Rick Joyner?
By the way, I always enjoy your thoughtful openess in your posts.
Keep the faith!
Thank you. I haven't read the book, but have put it on my list to check out.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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I think it was Bereans who checked out everything

I don't really remember, but it seems more that you are right in this. I was surprised at the compliment given for the diligence of checking things out. The Pharisees sure would have done better to check out Jesus.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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By the way, I always enjoy your thoughtful openess in your posts.
Keep the faith!

We have the good Lord looking over all things, it is better to try to be honest and trust him. My openness is contained somewhat. I have been no saint in my life, though I wish that I was a better person, I am stuck to my messed up history, until the Lord vanishes it away. Thank you and you also Keep the Faith in our most Wonderful God and Father in Heaven and his Son and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith now is much wider and more beautiful than I ever imagined. I may write a story soon, which will have a part of it dealing with Faith, only most remarkable and unusual in a distant time in the future, yet before the coming of Christ. Quite contrary to the present day beliefs of a much earlier time of Jesus' coming.
 
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Der Alte

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. . . Tell me what you think of AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS or just check out these Greek words and what they meant in the Greek language. Their translation makes one of the largest impacts on Christianity, since people revere the Bible being infallible.

If you want to know what Greek words mean I suggest that you consult reputable Greek language sources rather than blogs by unknowns with unknown/questionable expertise.

Aionio's" - A Lexical Survey

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166.
αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).
Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​
2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; evidently carries certain implications associated with &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown​
Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
 
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Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

aion - &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957; - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
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Stephen Kendall

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We have two camps. One the ruling body fully supported and the other an underclass and so the questionables.

I got your interest, now what about the real question here. It is about Faith. Do we support Faith in Jesus and what he has commanded, surely he isn't the questionable class is he? The Faith that Jesus was talking about in "will there be Faith (people obeying his commands) when He returns?, besides them being able to see the intent of his sacrifice and obeying his Father's will (to save all). Even Scripture repeats this universal salvation (to save all)(all will bend their knees)...

I don't want to do this but copy / paste seems to be a regular in arguments, so here are a few things to prove wrong and cast out of the Bible since they all speak of universal salvation through Jesus Christ the Redeemer: (I don't like copy / paste, there is just too much to copy / past so I will only give a small fraction of what the Bible has referring to this purpose of Christ and this gigantic difference by knowing your Greek better (please don't be offended, for I don't even understand Greek, but I do understand the nature of God, the purpose of him saying what did and what it implies and also the greatness of Jesus' sacrifice and salvation))

Forgive me for making such a long paste for this post, you may find where this came from by visiting absolute assurance in jesus christ

Acts 3:21 tells us God has promised through all His holy prophets that He will restore ALL things. Furthermore, both Old Testament and New Testament writers and prophets tell us:

· that all earth’s families will be blessed through Christ, Abraham’s “Seed” (Gen. 12:3, Acts 3:23, Rom. 4:13). Furthermore, according to Galatians 3:8, this promised blessing means that all earth’s families will be turned from their sins; justified and set right with God;

· that success or failure at keeping God’s law has no bearing on whether or not this promised blessing will finally be bestowed, for the law cannot cancel this covenant (Gal. 3:17-21);

· that all earth’s families, therefore, will remember the Lord, turn to Him and worship Him (Ps. 22:27-28);

· that all flesh will bless His name forever and sing His praise (Ps. 145:21; 66:3-4, Rev. 5:13);

· that His tender mercies are over all His works, and all His works shall praise Him (Ps. 145:9-10);

· that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and give thanks to the Lord. Furthermore, they will swear to Him and oath of allegiance and give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. And this will bring glory to our loving Father. (Isa. 45:21-24, NKJV, also see the Amplified Version; Phil. 2:9-11);3

· that our Tender Father of all Compassion is not pleased or glorified with mere lip service. (Matt. 15:8, 2 Cor. 1:3-4);


· that God’s will and purpose must come to pass and no one can restrain Him. For He works ALL things according to His will (Ps. 33:10-11, Prov. 19:21; 21:1, Ecc. 3:1,17, Dan. 4:34-35, Eph. 1:11);

· that His will and good pleasure and purpose is to unite ALL creation in Christ (Eph. 1:10; 2:9-10);

· that His Word will not return void but accomplish His desire, pleasure and purpose (Isa. 45:23; 46:11; 55:11);

· that through His death on the cross, Christ will draw all mankind to Himself. For Gabriel announced that Christ our Savior shall be glad tidings of great joy to all people (John 12:32-33, Luke 2:10);

· that BECAUSE God created all things for His pleasure, He is worthy of all power, honor and praise (Rev. 4:11);

· that for this reason Christ descended into Hades and proclaimed the gospel to the dead, specifically Noah’s disobedient generation—so they could be judged in order that they might live by God’s Spirit (1 Pet. 3:19; 4:6);

· that Christ, our Good Shepherd, who preached the gospel to Noah’s generation, is the same yesterday, today and forever. Thus, we can rest assured that He will fulfill the redemptive plans of God’s heart for ALL generations (Ps. 33:11, Heb. 13:8);

· that God has given Christ ALL things (Matt. 11:27; 28:18, Luke 10:22, John 3:35; 13:3; 17:2, Eph. 1:22, Heb. 1:2; 2:7-8, 1 Pet. 3:22);

· that Christ will accomplish His Father’s will and lose nothing of all He’s been given (John 6:37,39; 17:2, Heb. 10:7,9);


· that in the last days God will pour out His Spirit on ALL mankind, and whoever calls on the Lord’s name will be restored and saved. And as has been shown, all will not only call on the Lord’s name, but all will swear allegiance to Him and offer Him thanks (Joel 2:28-32, Acts 2:16-38);


· that just as Adam’s trespass brought condemnation on all people—so also—Christ’s act of righteousness was justification that brings life to all people. For as through Adam’s disobedience “the many” were made sinners—so also—through Christ’s obedience “the many” will be made righteous (Romans 5:18-19);

· that therefore where sin abounded, grace abounded much more! (Romans 5:20);

· that the whole family4 in heaven and earth is named after our Father. For we are all His offspring. Thus He is above all, through all, and in all (Amos 9:12, Acts 17:28, Eph. 3:14-15; 4:6);

· that God’s mercy triumphs over judgment. For it is His tender mercy that governs His judgment (Ps. 62:12, Jam. 2:13);

· that the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Messiah (Dan. 7:14,27, Rev. 11:15);

· that the Lord has made bare His holy arm (strength!) and all shall see His Salvation (Isa. 52:10);

· that righteousness and praise shall spring forth before all nations, and everlasting joy shall come to them (See all of Isaiah 61);

· that He Who is Sovereign Holy Love will have mercy on those who were not His people. He will say to them, “You are My people!” And they shall say, “You are my God!” (Hosea 2:23);

· that Sovereign Holy Love will raise from death those who were not His people. He will thus be the Plague and Destruction of death—and Hades (Hos. 13:13-14);

· that Paul therefore could joyfully shout, “O death, where is your sting? O Hades where is your victory?” (1 Cor. 15:54-55);

· that all things came through Christ and are made for Christ and will finally be subject to Him. For He has tasted death for everyone. (1 Cor. 15:25-28, Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:2; 2:8-10, Rev. 4:11);

· that God is reconciling ALL to Himself through Christ’s cross (John 12:32, 2 Cor. 5:18-19, Col. 1:15-20);

· that Authentic Love reveals itself, not only in words, but in deeds done in integrity, and God’s ever-active love never ceases or fails (1 John 3:18, 1 Cor. 13:8);

· that Christ will be satisfied that God’s will and pleasure has prospered in His hand through His death on the cross (Isa. 53:10-11);

· that God’s will is that none should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9);

· that God is the Savior of ALL people, especially (not exclusively) of those who believe. These things prescribe and teach (1 Tim. 4:9-11);

· that through His love-sacrifice Christ, the Lamb of God, has put away sin—the sin of the world (John 1:29, Heb. 9:26, 2 Cor. 5:19);

· that all is from and through God and must return to Him, for God desires all to be saved, and this will be confirmed in due time. Again we recall how God’s Word will not return void but will accomplish all He desires. (Isa. 55:11, Romans 11:32-36, Heb. 2:10, 1 Tim. 2:4-6, Rev. 4:11);

· that Christ, through His church, will eventually fill all things so God will become all—not merely in some—but in ALL (1 Cor. 12:6, 15:28, Eph. 1:22; 4:10, Col. 3:11);

· that the earth is the Lord’s in all it’s fullness and those who dwell therein. So Christ will inherit the nations and all He has made will worship Him (Ps. 1:8; 24:1; 83:8; 86:9, 1 Cor. 3:11; 12:6, Rev. 5:13);

· that the Father has given His Son dominion over the works of His hands (all of which shall praise Him). And He has put all things under His feet (Ps. 8:6; 145:9-10);

· that our Father does whatever pleases Him (fulfills His pleasure) in Heaven and earth and all the deep places (Ps. 135:5-6, Eph. 1:9-11);

· that in one passage the declaration occurs twenty-six times that God’s mercy endures forever (Ps. 136);

· that God’s prophetic Word (which cannot return void) is, “Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!” (See all of Ps. 150.);

· that in the last days all nations shall flow into the Lord’s house (Isa. 2:2);

· that Christ the Savior of all men, our Trustworthy Good Shepherd, will not fail. Neither will He be discouraged until He establishes justice (salvation) in the earth (Isa. 42:4, Matt. 12:18-21);

· that Christ is a Covenant (Promise!) and a Light to all who are spiritually unenlightened, who weep under the shadow of darkness. He is to free them from idolatry’s prison. For God will not share His glory with graven images (Isa. 42:6-9, Luke 1:78-79);

· that He makes all things new. For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ all shall be made alive (Isa. 25:7-8, Romans 5:18, 1 Cor. 15:22, Rev. 21:4-5);

God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as innumerable as the sand grains on the seashores and as plentiful as the stars in the heavens! For all who have faith in Christ, according to Scripture, are descendants of Abraham (Gen. 22:17-19, Romans 2:28-29, Gal. 3:6-7, Rev. 7:9). So Christ’s ultimate “harvest” of human souls will be of such magnitude that no man can number. What is now called “the church” is only a kind of firstfruits of that harvest (Jas. 1:18).

How can we anchor our souls? As Christians, how can we anchor our mind, will and emotions to possess a solid sense of identity and a good reason for being unless we can rely on Christ’s faithfulness to fulfill God’s covenant with Abraham? The Scriptures tell us that this covenant is an anchor—steadfast and sure! Why is this so? Because this covenant assures us that all humanity will be blessed in Christ!

So why do so many Christians feel insecure in God’s love? One problem is the unscriptural tradition that most people will be lost forever—that only the fittest will survive in God’s economy!

Another unbiblical tradition that keeps many of us from having a solid sense of identity and a good purpose for being is the tradition that people who die in sin or while unconverted will never be brought to repentance. And why? Because they failed to recognize their “chance” to exercise sufficient wisdom to “seize the moment” (so tradition would have us believe). But is that what the Scriptures really teach? Are we saved, not by God’s grace, but by chance—or by our cleverness to recognize our “chance” before it’s “eternally too late”? If so, will most flesh sing God’s praise and bless His name forever while agonizing from an endless hell? If that describes the final scenario our Loving Creator has in mind, how is Abraham’s covenant a sure anchor for the soul? What hope does Abraham’s covenant offer? Where is our Lord’s tender mercy?

The Bible says that it is appointed to men once to die, and after that the judgment7 (Heb. 9:27-28). It does not say after death all hope is gone! Thus, we see that:

· Sodom’s fiery judgment is “eternal” (Jude 7)—until—God “will restore the fortunes of Sodom” (Ez. 16:53-55);

· Israel’s “affliction is incurable” (Jer. 30:12)—until—the Lord “will restore health” and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

· The sin of Samaria “is incurable” (Mic. 1:9)—until—the Lord “will restore . . . the fortunes of Samaria.” (Ez. 16:53);

· Ammon is to become a “wasteland forever” and “rise no more” (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will “restore the fortunes of the Ammonites” (Jer. 49:6);

· An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation “forever”—until—the tenth gener-ation (Deut. 23:3);

· Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were “everlasting”, that is—until—they “were shattered” (Hab. 3:6);

· God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah “forever”—until—the Lord delivers him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17);

· Egypt and Elam will “rise no more” (Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will “restore the fortunes of Egypt” (Ez. 29:14) and “restore the fortunes of Elam” (Jer. 49:39).

· “Moab is destroyed” (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord “will restore the fortunes of Moab” (Jer. 48:47);

· Israel’s judgment lasts “forever”—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

· So, narrow is the way to life and few find it—until—Christ and His church confiscate the “strong man’s” booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28);

· God is now calling out “a people for His name”—an “elect” or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen—until—the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore “David’s tabernacle” so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the church is the first born, the beginning—until—in all (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1:18).


Creation did not fall into ruin by it’s own choice, according to Romans 8:20-21. God Himself allowed it because of a hope He cherished in His heart.



This list could go on and on. I don't see how any Christian that follows Jesus could miss it. The simple word all out-weights the Pagan induced word of eternal over the Greek words that were supposedly written in that way. Any scholar that can't see the inductions of Paganism into the churches needs to take off their rosy colored glasses. This is a major problem in the promotion of our Faith. It lost its way a long time ago, not even understanding God's Will and the Glorious Sacrifice of Christ. Ghandi of India said that he loved this Jesus Christ but hated the world's Christians. Why, because they don't follow or obey Jesus Christ, and their Paganism, worldliness and even their hatred of Jesus & God has polluted their Faith, the Faith that Jesus would see today, if he were to return now.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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I didn't want to copy paste and will try to avoid that in the future. Where that talk came from is given, I don't promote the website, but was using this idea of universal salvation through them for others to see there is more to things than relying on experts telling you what to believe and who to follow and what is proven true. How many times have we heard this, the poor Pharisees were so misled. Isn't God bigger than our puny minds and their way below average Heavenly thoughts. The word all resonates in Scripture when God speaks of all bowing down, praising God, praising his son Jesus, being blessed, ... Shall we say there is an error with this word and just understand that the eternal word of evil torment is greater than the constantly repeated word of all exercising God's Mercy, Glory, Heart and Love? Something is amiss. Are we understanding the disciples early Faith in Christ & God? There are the seeds of Satan planted with the garden of God's good seeds, they have grown up with the early seeds and have been choking those who bear the Gospel and Faith of Jesus. The Faith of Christ has been eroded to something that is disdainful, corrupted and choking the believers of Jesus.

In your faith as it stands, you are assured and rightly so, but you are also being choked, some sincere ones check everything out and find out the real hidden Faith of God's great love and purpose for all of mankind & creation.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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Quote by
Der Alter

""If you want to know what Greek words mean I suggest that you consult reputable Greek language sources rather than blogs by unknowns with unknown/questionable expertise."


You are right about being unknowns with unknown/questionable expertise, yet this shouldn't discredit what they found, for men with honorable expertise have discredit the New Testament (
Desiderius Erasmus) by falsifying translations and others have hurt the faith by not following / obeying the commands of Jesus (RC Papal(s) & its authorities for hundreds of years, as well as countless ones of authority and reputations throughout our Christendom's Heritage & History). So what gives, are you not able to deal with a lesser voice? Jesus was before the eyes of many as just a carpenter's son with a demon. Many of Jesus' disciples were simple fishermen (and probably with the same demon). We are to listen to people with reputation & fancy knowledge and degrees and some other simpler ones inspired to research, study and present what is on their minds and what they found (especially since it is troubling to the Church). Sir Issac Newton's publisher would not print his findings, for the publisher knew that Newton would be destroyed by the Church and its authority. Sir Issac Newton was in the same genius standing as Albert Einstein and was quite reputable (He loved the Bible and diligently researched it, he was quite qualified to an expert and what he found could be as much a threat as another quite qualified individual who was executed by the Church, Michael Servetus.

Did you look over and read what
REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M. spoke about and the many doctors that he referenced in AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS ? I am not a Universalist or believe in Universalism, but I try to be forward in my Faith and not scared at what I would find. My Faith is personal with my Father in Heaven with Christ Jesus as Lord, it isn't written in some denomination or Orthodox or Unorthodox group beliefs. It is that my Father in Heaven can save me and will through my Lord Jesus. Faith is personal and should be. Numbers don't count, but heart, sincerity and following (obeying) Jesus do. The Tares capitalizing on our shared Faith is no miscalculation over the last 2,000 years and shouldn't be underestimated. Changing a very small fraction of your stated 10% uncorroborated factual New Testament is enough to totally misaligned our understanding of the Gospel diverting our Faith and choking believers. Yet in all of this, there is hope and promise through our unfortunate ignorance (which is innocently so).


 
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Stephen Kendall

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There is one thing that I have noticed that some sincere Christian individuals with a problem with depression and thus actually thinking that this torment God is going to cast them into Hell, or for others, totally destroy them (no existence)). Yet with the promise of universal salvation, which is as far as night is from day more Glorious than the sub-glorious belief with the attachment of eternal damnation, there is not a cause or needed in their weaker mental stability & control to believe in hopelessness and to worry about failing God. Is it wrong to give salvation hope to the mentally bothered ones? I don't think that they are less than us, for we too are being choked by the evil tares around. These tares are left in place for God's concern that his children would be harmed, he knew that they could survive and will, though choked.

With universal salvation, the whole of the Bible is put into place gloriously. Jesus sacrifice becomes fantastic and with a much greater purpose. For those satisfied with status quo and don't really mind the choking effects around some of it, then good luck brother and sister, I love you and only wish the best. What would Jesus find if there are millions believing in a universal salvation with beaming Faith thinking of a Glorious Father and Son, seeing the meaning of Scripture and can't stop smiling and telling others of a wonderful God and Father. Would it be possible to convert the world with such faith? For starters, obeying Jesus under universal salvation is our main concern and loving our brethren would be as common as the smiles on everyone's face, maybe the earth would shout, "Come Lord Jesus come!
 
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Stephen Kendall

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Good night again, I hope there wasn't too much offense, if so please tell me, I will try to apologize, explain and fix it the best I can. Please try to listen with an open mind. We are human and can easily offend each other, but shouldn't. My feelings expressed offensively are not against individuals but against something that shouldn't be there in our Faith in God and Christ.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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If anyone would be interested please look at Dave's post and Spruikah's on http://jesuschristians.com/forum/4-everything-else/43178-snippets-from-the-hard-copy-universal-reconciliation-library-of-rodger-tutt?start=140
made yesterday, I believe. They are rather potent and talking similarly about universal salvation and our basic faith in Christ. The aren't long, average only. You should be inspired, not converted. "Jesus Christians" is no longer a religious group (they were disbanded years ago), but the site is still running. They are there to have fellowship and just sincerely search their faith. If you tote much of Christendom's baggage (ex. Tare's choking things) then it would be hard to have fellowship, but if you are just reading the posts, it should be a piece of cake with the frosting of inspiration too.
 
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Der Alte

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We have two camps. One the ruling body fully supported and the other an underclass and so the questionables.

... It is about Faith. Do we support Faith in Jesus and what he has commanded, surely he isn't the questionable class is he? The Faith that Jesus was talking about in "will there be Faith (people obeying his commands) when He returns?, besides them being able to see the intent of his sacrifice and obeying his Father's will (to save all). Even Scripture repeats this universal salvation (to save all)(all will bend their knees)...

None of this address the nine (9) irrefutable Greek language resources I quoted from.

I don't want to do this but copy / paste seems to be a regular in arguments, so here are a few things to prove wrong and cast out of the Bible since they all speak of universal salvation through Jesus Christ the Redeemer: ... so I will only give a small fraction of what the Bible has referring to this purpose of Christ and this gigantic difference by knowing your Greek better ... I do understand the nature of God, the purpose of him saying what did and what it implies and also the greatness of Jesus' sacrifice and salvation))

"Copy/paste" implies dishonestly copying from a source without identifying the source, giving the impression that a post was the poster's own thoughts. It is very proper to quote from and identify sources to support an argument.

...you may find where this came from by visiting absolute assurance in jesus christ

Acts 3:21 tells us God has promised through all His holy prophets that He will restore ALL things. ...

· that all earth’s families will be blessed through Christ, Abraham’s “Seed” (Gen. 12:3, Acts 3:23, Rom. 4:13). Furthermore, according to Galatians 3:8, this promised blessing means that all earth’s families will be turned from their sins; justified and set right with God;

· that success or failure at keeping God’s law has no bearing on whether or not this promised blessing will finally be bestowed, for the law cannot cancel this covenant (Gal. 3:17-21);

· that all earth’s families, therefore, will remember the Lord, turn to Him and worship Him (Ps. 22:27-28);

· that all flesh will bless His name forever and sing His praise (Ps. 145:21; 66:3-4, Rev. 5:13);

· that His tender mercies are over all His works, and all His works shall praise Him (Ps. 145:9-10);

· that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and give thanks to the Lord. Furthermore, they will swear to Him and oath of allegiance and give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. And this will bring glory to our loving Father. (Isa. 45:21-24, NKJV, also see the Amplified Version; Phil. 2:9-11);3

· that our Tender Father of all Compassion is not pleased or glorified with mere lip service. (Matt. 15:8, 2 Cor. 1:3-4);
.
· that God’s will and purpose must come to pass and no one can restrain Him. For He works ALL things according to His will (Ps. 33:10-11, Prov. 19:21; 21:1, Ecc. 3:1,17, Dan. 4:34-35, Eph. 1:11);

· that His will and good pleasure and purpose is to unite ALL creation in Christ (Eph. 1:10; 2:9-10);

· that His Word will not return void but accomplish His desire, pleasure and purpose (Isa. 45:23; 46:11; 55:11);

· that through His death on the cross, Christ will draw all mankind to Himself. For Gabriel announced that Christ our Savior shall be glad tidings of great joy to all people (John 12:32-33, Luke 2:10);

· that BECAUSE God created all things for His pleasure, He is worthy of all power, honor and praise (Rev. 4:11);

· that for this reason Christ descended into Hades and proclaimed the gospel to the dead, specifically Noah’s disobedient generation—so they could be judged in order that they might live by God’s Spirit (1 Pet. 3:19; 4:6);

· that Christ, our Good Shepherd, who preached the gospel to Noah’s generation, is the same yesterday, today and forever. Thus, we can rest assured that He will fulfill the redemptive plans of God’s heart for ALL generations (Ps. 33:11, Heb. 13:8);

· that God has given Christ ALL things (Matt. 11:27; 28:18, Luke 10:22, John 3:35; 13:3; 17:2, Eph. 1:22, Heb. 1:2; 2:7-8, 1 Pet. 3:22);

· that Christ will accomplish His Father’s will and lose nothing of all He’s been given (John 6:37,39; 17:2, Heb. 10:7,9);

· that in the last days God will pour out His Spirit on ALL mankind, and whoever calls on the Lord’s name will be restored and saved. And as has been shown, all will not only call on the Lord’s name, but all will swear allegiance to Him and offer Him thanks (Joel 2:28-32, Acts 2:16-38);

· that just as Adam’s trespass brought condemnation on all people—so also—Christ’s act of righteousness was justification that brings life to all people. For as through Adam’s disobedience “the many” were made sinners—so also—through Christ’s obedience “the many” will be made righteous (Romans 5:18-19);

· that therefore where sin abounded, grace abounded much more! (Romans 5:20);

· that the whole family4 in heaven and earth is named after our Father. For we are all His offspring. Thus He is above all, through all, and in all (Amos 9:12, Acts 17:28, Eph. 3:14-15; 4:6);

· that God’s mercy triumphs over judgment. For it is His tender mercy that governs His judgment (Ps. 62:12, Jam. 2:13);

· that the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Messiah (Dan. 7:14,27, Rev. 11:15);

· that the Lord has made bare His holy arm (strength!) and all shall see His Salvation (Isa. 52:10);

· that righteousness and praise shall spring forth before all nations, and everlasting joy shall come to them (See all of Isaiah 61);

· that He Who is Sovereign Holy Love will have mercy on those who were not His people. He will say to them, “You are My people!” And they shall say, “You are my God!” (Hosea 2:23);

· that Sovereign Holy Love will raise from death those who were not His people. He will thus be the Plague and Destruction of death—and Hades (Hos. 13:13-14);

· that Paul therefore could joyfully shout, “O death, where is your sting? O Hades where is your victory?” (1 Cor. 15:54-55);

· that all things came through Christ and are made for Christ and will finally be subject to Him. For He has tasted death for everyone. (1 Cor. 15:25-28, Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:2; 2:8-10, Rev. 4:11);

· that God is reconciling ALL to Himself through Christ’s cross (John 12:32, 2 Cor. 5:18-19, Col. 1:15-20);

· that Authentic Love reveals itself, not only in words, but in deeds done in integrity, and God’s ever-active love never ceases or fails (1 John 3:18, 1 Cor. 13:8);

· that Christ will be satisfied that God’s will and pleasure has prospered in His hand through His death on the cross (Isa. 53:10-11);

· that God’s will is that none should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9);

· that God is the Savior of ALL people, especially (not exclusively) of those who believe. These things prescribe and teach (1 Tim. 4:9-11);

· that through His love-sacrifice Christ, the Lamb of God, has put away sin—the sin of the world (John 1:29, Heb. 9:26, 2 Cor. 5:19);

· that all is from and through God and must return to Him, for God desires all to be saved, and this will be confirmed in due time. Again we recall how God’s Word will not return void but will accomplish all He desires. (Isa. 55:11, Romans 11:32-36, Heb. 2:10, 1 Tim. 2:4-6, Rev. 4:11);

· that Christ, through His church, will eventually fill all things so God will become all—not merely in some—but in ALL (1 Cor. 12:6, 15:28, Eph. 1:22; 4:10, Col. 3:11);

· that the earth is the Lord’s in all it’s fullness and those who dwell therein. So Christ will inherit the nations and all He has made will worship Him (Ps. 1:8; 24:1; 83:8; 86:9, 1 Cor. 3:11; 12:6, Rev. 5:13);

· that the Father has given His Son dominion over the works of His hands (all of which shall praise Him). And He has put all things under His feet (Ps. 8:6; 145:9-10);

· that our Father does whatever pleases Him (fulfills His pleasure) in Heaven and earth and all the deep places (Ps. 135:5-6, Eph. 1:9-11);

· that in one passage the declaration occurs twenty-six times that God’s mercy endures forever (Ps. 136);

· that God’s prophetic Word (which cannot return void) is, “Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!” (See all of Ps. 150.);

· that in the last days all nations shall flow into the Lord’s house (Isa. 2:2);

· that Christ the Savior of all men, our Trustworthy Good Shepherd, will not fail. Neither will He be discouraged until He establishes justice (salvation) in the earth (Isa. 42:4, Matt. 12:18-21);

· that Christ is a Covenant (Promise!) and a Light to all who are spiritually unenlightened, who weep under the shadow of darkness. He is to free them from idolatry’s prison. For God will not share His glory with graven images (Isa. 42:6-9, Luke 1:78-79);

· that He makes all things new. For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ all shall be made alive (Isa. 25:7-8, Romans 5:18, 1 Cor. 15:22, Rev. 21:4-5);

God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as innumerable as the sand grains on the seashores and as plentiful as the stars in the heavens! For all who have faith in Christ, according to Scripture, are descendants of Abraham (Gen. 22:17-19, Romans 2:28-29, Gal. 3:6-7, Rev. 7:9). So Christ’s ultimate “harvest” of human souls will be of such magnitude that no man can number. What is now called “the church” is only a kind of firstfruits of that harvest (Jas. 1:18).

This is out-of-context proof-texting. Jumping all over the Bible, a verse here, a verse there, jamming them all together with no regard for the different contexts.

How can we anchor our souls? As Christians, how can we anchor our mind, will and emotions to possess a solid sense of identity and a good reason for being unless we can rely on Christ’s faithfulness to fulfill God’s covenant with Abraham? The Scriptures tell us [Christians, DA] that this covenant is an anchor—steadfast and sure! Why is this so? Because this covenant assures us [Christians, DA] that all humanity will be blessed in Christ! [Wrong! DA]

This is correct "as Christians" which does not include those who reject scripture and live corrupt, sinful lives.

So why do so many Christians feel insecure in God’s love? One problem is the unscriptural tradition that most people will be lost forever—that only the fittest will survive in God’s economy!

Another unbiblical tradition that keeps many of us from having a solid sense of identity and a good purpose for being is the tradition that people who die in sin or while unconverted will never be brought to repentance. And why? Because they failed to recognize their “chance” to exercise sufficient wisdom to “seize the moment” (so tradition would have us believe). But is that what the Scriptures really teach? Are we saved, not by God’s grace, but by chance—or by our cleverness to recognize our “chance” before it’s “eternally too late”? If so, will most flesh sing God’s praise and bless His name forever while agonizing from an endless hell? If that describes the final scenario our Loving Creator has in mind, how is Abraham’s covenant a sure anchor for the soul? What hope does Abraham’s covenant offer? Where is our Lord’s tender mercy?

See my next post following the cointinuation of this post.
 
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Der Alte

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The Bible says that it is appointed to men once to die, and after that the judgment7 (Heb. 9:27-28). It does not say after death all hope is gone! Thus, we see that:

· Sodom’s fiery judgment is “eternal” (Jude 7)—until—God “will restore the fortunes of Sodom” (Ez. 16:53-55);

· Israel’s “affliction is incurable” (Jer. 30:12)—until—the Lord “will restore health” and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

· The sin of Samaria “is incurable” (Mic. 1:9)—until—the Lord “will restore . . . the fortunes of Samaria.” (Ez. 16:53);

· Ammon is to become a “wasteland forever” and “rise no more” (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will “restore the fortunes of the Ammonites” (Jer. 49:6);

More out-of-context proof-texting. A verse here and a verse there jam them together while ignoring the individual context.

· An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation “forever”—until—the tenth gener-ation (Deut. 23:3);

· Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were “everlasting”, that is—until—they “were shattered” (Hab. 3:6);

· God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah “forever”—until—the Lord delivers him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17);

· Egypt and Elam will “rise no more” (Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will “restore the fortunes of Egypt” (Ez. 29:14) and “restore the fortunes of Elam” (Jer. 49:39).

· “Moab is destroyed” (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord “will restore the fortunes of Moab” (Jer. 48:47);

· Israel’s judgment lasts “forever”—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

That the word translated "forever" is used hyperbolically in a few verses does not change the primary meaning, forever, without end, everlasting, etc.

· So, narrow is the way to life and few find it—until—Christ and His church confiscate the “strong man’s” booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28);

· God is now calling out “a people for His name”—an “elect” or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen—until—the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore “David’s tabernacle” so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the church is the first born, the beginning—until—in all (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1:18).
Creation did not fall into ruin by it’s own choice, according to Romans 8:20-21. God Himself allowed it because of a hope He cherished in His heart

More out-of-context proof-texting.

This list could go on and on. I don't see how any Christian that follows Jesus could miss it. The simple word all out-weights the Pagan induced word of eternal over the Greek words [Absolutely false! DA] that were supposedly written in that way. Any scholar that can't see the inductions of Paganism into the churches needs to take off their rosy colored glasses.

Accusation of paganism is false! Totally ignores the nine (9) irrefutable Greek language sources I quoted from.

This is a major problem in the promotion of our Faith. It lost its way a long time ago, not even understanding God's Will and the Glorious Sacrifice of Christ. Ghandi of India said that he loved this Jesus Christ but hated the world's Christians. Why, because they don't follow or obey Jesus Christ, and their Paganism, worldliness and even their hatred of Jesus & God has polluted their Faith, the Faith that Jesus would see today, if he were to return now.

More empty accusations of paganism!
 
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Der Alte

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This is a result of my own studies, not a complete argument copy/pasted from a random website. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.” (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
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The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum
 
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Der Alte

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You are right about being unknowns with unknown/questionable expertise, yet this shouldn't discredit what they found, for men with honorable expertise have discredit the New Testament (Desiderius Erasmus) by falsifying translations and others have hurt the faith by not following / obeying the commands of Jesus (RC Papal(s) & its authorities for hundreds of years, as well as countless ones of authority and reputations throughout our Christendom's Heritage & History).

A lot of empty claims and accusations! Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support any of this?

So what gives, are you not able to deal with a lesser voice?

I just did! I provided evidence from nine (9) irrefutable modern Greek language sources which refuted your one (1) Universalist source published more than 150 years ago.

Jesus was before the eyes of many as just a carpenter's son with a demon. Many of Jesus' disciples were simple fishermen (and probably with the same demon). We are to listen to people with reputation & fancy knowledge and degrees and some other simpler ones inspired to research, study and present what is on their minds and what they found (especially since it is troubling to the Church). Sir Issac Newton's publisher would not print his findings, for the publisher knew that Newton would be destroyed by the Church and its authority. Sir Issac Newton was in the same genius standing as Albert Einstein and was quite reputable (He loved the Bible and diligently researched it, he was quite qualified to an expert and what he found could be as much a threat as another quite qualified individual who was executed by the Church, Michael Servetus.

None of this proves anything about the website you linked to.

Did you look over and read what REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M. spoke about and the many doctors that he referenced in AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS ?

I read some of it and I refuted all of his claims from nine (9) irrefutable, modern Greek language sources. Your one source said the ancient Greeks never used aion/aionios to mean everlasting, unending, eternal, etc. My sources quoted from ancient Greek writers which prove that aion/aionios was in-fact used synonymously with aidos.

The Tares capitalizing on our shared Faith is no miscalculation over the last 2,000 years and shouldn't be underestimated.

This does not make any sense to me. Please either quote or direct me to something which explains what you mean.

Changing a very small fraction of your stated 10% uncorroborated factual New Testament is enough to totally misaligned our understanding of the Gospel diverting our Faith and choking believers. Yet in all of this, there is hope and promise through our unfortunate ignorance (which is innocently so).

What is your source for this 10% statistic? What people who make claims that the NT was corrupted, changed, etc. don't know is that there is no, zero, none manuscript evidence for their claims. It has been estimated that about 90% of the NT can be recreated from citations in the early church fathers writing in the first 300 years of the Christian era. There are no substantial differences between those writings and the NT that we have today.
 
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