Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

[Stephen Kendall]

What is your source for this 10% statistic? What people who make claims that the NT was corrupted, changed, etc. don't know is that there is no, zero, none manuscript evidence for their claims. It has been estimated that about 90% of the NT can be recreated from citations in the early church fathers writing in the first 300 years of the Christian era. There are no substantial differences between those writings and the NT that we have today.

100% - 90% (your above 90%) = 10% uncorroborated factual New Testament. If, say, one word was changed in a tiny moderate way, say the Greek word meaning long age or eon into Plato's changed Greek word (he exaggerated) extremely extended eon with eternal emphasis, then we have a complete change of Scriptural meaning if being a leading writer, other Greeks follow his writings in their own writings (maybe an innocent mistake that spiraled outward to complicate things), then later translators would find the word different than originally meant to be and not even knowing it sense it satisfied the creeping Paganism within the Faith. One tiny tiny change within the giant 10% uncorroborated NT probably destroyed the faith of the first believers of Christ into becoming Pagan (eternal punishment in Hell believers). I can't see, or you, for the missing pieces of the puzzle of what has actually happened with our Faith, but you know that history is filled with deceit within the Church (deceit in not being a follower of Christ (obeying him)(being instead killers, liars, violent, worldly, conniving, etc.) yet being in authority over the churches). How do you handle the splits within the churches, all playing for power, yet few sincere with obeying the simple and beautiful commands of our Lord Jesus Christ? Something is amiss with our Faith today. Why would Jesus say, "Would the son of man find Faith when he returns?" If Faith is already here and healthy and well, what is the problem? The problem is simple, Christians are not obeying Jesus, yet are obeying man's concoctions, so where is Faith? That is a serious problem. Now, how do you correct things to get us back on track? A simple question is "Do Christians even know say 20 or 50 of the commands of Jesus Christ?" If they aren't taught or emphasized by their churches, there is a huge problem, for this is their real Faith, not the churches' other ideas. Don't you agree? If the real Faith was universal salvation with a period of punishment appropriate to crimes for those not believing in Christ (obeying him) or falsely saying they believe in him, then the job of followers of Christ becomes powerful and enabling for the Faith to grow through all the peoples of the world. This Pagan torture Hell for eternity plays against the teachings of Christ and for what it means to be in the family of God.

Using supports and proofs of many expert individuals is probably how we got here. If you use common sense and expert research from all sincere individuals into what may have gone wrong then you may discover that the well to do ones didn't do a very good job of preserving the Faith of Christ for us. Why didn't Jesus use the experts to spread the Gospel? He used fishermen, hated tax collector, etc. He later did use an expert, Apostle Paul, but Paul had to be forced converted. Paul didn't see things on his own, but was selected to be forced into the Faith by a direct miracle and personal revelations. He still could have rejected Jesus, but Paul was wanting to please God and realized that he was on the wrong side.

The rich, experts, powerful and rulers (especially many of the church rulers) have been enemies of the faith. Read your Bible & Christian history about this (the rich or facilitators of the upper class (experts) were noted in the Bible to be enemies of God) . I can listen to and be edified by those who truly follow and obey Jesus (hopefully being experts, but could be tax collectors or fishermen, or even a carpenter), but I won't hear the leaders and experts who don't follow or obey my Lord. We are suppose to discern. It is easy to discern evil from good if individuals don't obey our Lord.

Faith should be coming back to the Earth, possibly some will be helped through threads like this one, I hope. It is said that Faith will return in the last Days. It definitely isn't returning in the mess up way that it is with great ignorance of the commands of Christ and the meaning of his sacrifice, and with all this grave disobedience to Him around us. Faith can return, if diligence in checking out things and using more common sense and basic logic than the works from some experts. It is best to seek a standing on the Rock alone (obeying and following Jesus alone) then question everything else, checking them out for ourselves. Forming this right Faith (following and obeying Christ) is paramount to following the experts and leaders. If we have the right Faith, we will be having the Faith that Jesus would want of us when he returns. I will have to get back to you on all of you other topics of your long posts, sorry, but my family obligations are part of my Faith in Jesus as well. I have tried to point things back to what Faith is. I hope some have seen the importance of obeying Christ alone, for he is sufficient and gives us personally sufficiency through the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us and God is willing and pleased to saved us that we are following his son Jesus alone.

 

[Der Alte]

100% - 90% (your above 90%) = 10% uncorroborated factual New Testament. If, say, one word was changed in a tiny moderate way, say the Greek word meaning long age or eon into Plato's changed Greek word (he exaggerated) extremely extended eon with eternal emphasis, then we have a complete change of Scriptural meaning if being a leading writer, other Greeks follow his writings in their own writings (maybe an innocent mistake that spiraled outward to complicate things), then later translators would find the word different than originally meant to be and not even knowing it sense it satisfied the creeping Paganism within the Faith.

Supposition, speculation which you decide at the end is absolutely factual. I provided evidence from nine (9) irrefutable sources that aion/aionios meant eternal, everlasting, unending, etc. To prove this there were quotes from pre-NT Greek writers. Nothing anyone can or did say refutes that. Please present your evidence for 'creeping Paganism?"

One tiny tiny change within the giant 10% uncorroborated NT probably destroyed the faith of the first believers of Christ into becoming Pagan (eternal punishment in Hell believers).

I notice you ignored my [post=66579301]Post #39[/post] where I documented the Jewish belief in hell before and during the time of Jesus. And I don't see any evidence for "the giant 10% uncorroborated NT probably destroyed the faith"

I can't see, or you, for the missing pieces of the puzzle of what has actually happened with our Faith, but you know that history is filled with deceit within the Church (deceit in not being a follower of Christ (obeying him)(being instead killers, liars, violent, worldly, conniving, etc.) yet being in authority over the churches).

Empty claims with no, zero, none evidence.

How do you handle the splits within the churches, all playing for power, yet few sincere with obeying the simple and beautiful commands of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Who made you the judge over the churches?

Something is amiss with our Faith today. Why would Jesus say, "Would the son of man find Faith when he returns?" If Faith is already here and healthy and well, what is the problem?

You are not the first person to decide that the church has been wrong for 2000 years +/- and that only you have the truth. There is a whole alphabet out there making the same claim LDS, JW, SDA, WWCG, UU, OP UPCI, INC and on and on.

The problem is simple, Christians are not obeying Jesus, yet are obeying man's concoctions, so where is Faith? That is a serious problem. Now, how do you correct things to get us back on track? A simple question is "Do Christians even know say 20 or 50 of the commands of Jesus Christ?" If they aren't taught or emphasized by their churches, there is a huge problem, for this is their real Faith, not the churches' other ideas. Don't you agree?

No I don't agree. Still playing judge.

If the real Faith was universal salvation with a period of punishment appropriate to crimes for those not believing in Christ (obeying him) or falsely saying they believe in him, then the job of followers of Christ becomes powerful and enabling for the Faith to grow through all the peoples of the world.

Please show me where Jesus taught universal salvation? Check out post #39

This Pagan torture Hell for eternity plays against the teachings of Christ and for what it means to be in the family of God.

See post #39.

Using supports and proofs of many expert individuals is probably how we got here. If you use common sense and expert research from all sincere individuals into what may have gone wrong then you may discover that the well to do ones didn't do a very good job of preserving the Faith of Christ for us.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.​

Why didn't Jesus use the experts to spread the Gospel? He used fishermen, hated tax collector, etc. He later did use an expert, Apostle Paul, but Paul had to be forced converted. Paul didn't see things on his own, but was selected to be forced into the Faith by a direct miracle and personal revelations. He still could have rejected Jesus, but Paul was wanting to please God and realized that he was on the wrong side.

Ταῦτα πάντα ἐλάλησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐν παραβολαῖς τοῖς ὄχλοις, καὶ χωρὶς παραβολῆς οὐδὲν ἐλάλει αὐτοῖς·

The rich, experts, powerful and rulers (especially many of the church rulers) have been enemies of the faith. Read your Bible & Christian history about this (the rich or facilitators of the upper class (experts) were noted in the Bible to be enemies of God) .

Some not all were.

I can listen to and be edified by those who truly follow and obey Jesus (hopefully being experts, but could be tax collectors or fishermen, or even a carpenter), but I won't hear the leaders and experts who don't follow or obey my Lord. We are suppose to discern. It is easy to discern evil from good if individuals don't obey our Lord.

Yes you are so righteous and almost everyone else doesn't follow or obey the Lord.

Faith should be coming back to the Earth, possibly some will be helped through threads like this one, I hope. It is said that Faith will return in the last Days.

Where is this said?

It definitely isn't returning in the mess up way that it is with great ignorance of the commands of Christ and the meaning of his sacrifice, and with all this grave disobedience to Him around us

More Judging.

Faith can return, if diligence in checking out things and using more common sense and basic logic than the works from some experts. It is best to seek a standing on the Rock alone (obeying and following Jesus alone) then question everything else, checking them out for ourselves. Forming this right Faith (following and obeying Christ) is paramount to following the experts and leaders. If we have the right Faith, we will be having the Faith that Jesus would want of us when he returns.

Unless you read Greek and Hebrew you are following the experts and leaders who translated the Bible into English.

I will have to get back to you on all of you other topics of your long posts, sorry, but my family obligations are part of my Faith in Jesus as well. I have tried to point things back to what Faith is. I hope some have seen the importance of obeying Christ alone, for he is sufficient and gives us personally sufficiency through the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us and God is willing and pleased to saved us that we are following his son Jesus alone.

You assume that only you have the right faith and follow Christ alone.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

A lot of empty claims and accusations! Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support any of this?

These things can be found and studied, if you are willing to know. I thought that you already knew, sorry.

I just did! I provided evidence from nine (9) irrefutable modern Greek language sources which refuted your one (1) Universalist source published more than 150 years ago.

You are willing to refute beforehand, but not listen or be objective to find out what is true. You are bent upon defense and attack. I am sorry to attack by my placement of Orthodox faith, yet also all denominations and even Unorthodox ones. It is not me against you or vice-versus, it is just simply you checking out things and I try to do the same. I am sorry to be acting so arrogant and seemingly superior, this surely isn't helping, but neither is not being objective enough or open minded enough to try to hold down our battling to respect each other and honor Christ's command for us of being known by our love for one another and not our different standings. Even the earliest churches had different standings and the faithful were loving to one another, remembering Jesus over their differences. I will try to go back over your 9 sources, but there are some sources with the article that I gave you also. I am supposing that we already have decided what we believe and refuse to see God or Christ any differently. Your job seems to try to convert me or save me, turn me over to Orthodox beliefs, for that is the purpose of this Unorthodox area of Christianforums.com. My job seems to try and ponder these findings objectively, if possible. Instead, we have some walls quickly erected to separate one from the other. What is next, flaming arrows? I want to be your friend and put down weapons. Maybe we need to see what we have in common. I don't fear what you have to say and really am not offended. I can't change what I believe and really don't want to bother you with the way that you believe, for your beliefs keep you strong in the Lord and he is able to save you and already has accepted you. I can see why my attacks, especially against your particular area of Christendom (the ruling majority part) greatly bothers you, but really, we belong to Jesus first or we just aren't his, right? Maybe, I am wrong and weak in faith, that is ok with me and my God (for He is able and willing to save us even if we be weak Christians), for I build my faith even through my ignorance, yet I do believe that all makes sense in the way that I believe and so am satisfied. I don't want anyone to join my personal beliefs, but if they are truly choking from their own, I just offer to them encouragement to do their own search for what they really do believe in, it may be different than my own, I would like to hear such.

I am a rather serious person and researcher, but still I develop a logical pattern and follow such, yet not listening very closely to unrepentant persons who have committed extreme violations against Jesus' commands' though being leaders or experts in knowledgeable areas. And I use my intuition with logic and reasoning to decide on difficult matters after exhaustive research. I did well in college, before quitting. Yes, I wasn't a graduate of anything more than an Associate Degree. It was common for me to have to correct teachers, tests, exams, experiments and textbooks. I am fiercely independent and excelled in much of what I have done academically. When I tackled my faith to see what I believed in, I spend months scouring over many sources and covering many historical individuals, testimonies and periods of history. Each of my research questions were thoroughly answered in my heart, but found that you can not really share these with others when they conflict. My purpose here is to not to convert, but to give hope and rest from the harshness of an evolving belief system, that left Jesus' disciples' faith. If we knew Jesus' language and could understand him and listen directly to him, we could know for sure what he said, but our place is now (2,000 years later) and all Christendom has is a peculiar faith that seems to suggest hypocrisy in the nature of God & Christ. Do you blame me for trying to find out for myself and with anyone's non-bias help (discern & listen), what Jesus really said, not a questionable 90% accuracy, but 100% on key items that disturb most people's minds and faiths.

The commands of Christ don't seem to be well known or that of being very popular within today's Christendom, yet to obey them is vital in our personal relationship with Him.




stephen kendall posted
"The Tares capitalizing on our shared Faith is no miscalculation over the last 2,000 years and shouldn't be underestimated.

This does not make any sense to me. Please either quote or direct me to something which explains what you mean.

It is simply my warning about the Tares that Christ spoke about in his parable, what I believe are the non-Jesus-commandments & -teachings sections of Christendom, are the Christendom's busy-works, unproductive to the Spirit or Gospel of Christ, and much of it is theological based and church believed-in non-Gospel doctrines. This is to me unproductive and hijacks our shared Faith that we were meant to have alone & personally with our Father within the Gospel of Christ. Tares have been growing for thousands of years, yet the purest Faith really is still out there and demonstrated in the innocence, zeal, honesty, hard-working ways and the humility of our productive brethren all around the world. They will always believe in Jesus before they believe in anything else and they actually obey him and know what he told them (his teachings and commands) and Jesus' Gospel is living within their hearts.

I don't mean to come down hard on you & anyone else or make people feel bothered. We each have a part in the Gospel, please continue in yours. How I see things, I have expressed, not to harm, but to promote the healing and well being of those who really are choking on non-Gospel things all around them, crowding their hearts with needlessness. If you are warning people of a God who will judge them and torment them in everlasting torment forever in Hell if they don't believe in what you tell them, what are you really saying to people, " He is a tyrant and evil God to many unfortunate lost souls?" I am taught by Christ to be loving, kind, forever forgiving, compassionate, understanding, tolerant and to always follow Him alone (the narrow straight road), this done, allows me to live so, as long as I don't believe that God torments outsiders to a non-ending series of torments dying forever. Is it not God who judges and sentences, then how inhumane is such a God to not extinguish the soul but capture in relentlessness of pains and sufferings . I can believe in the beautiful way of Christ and follow him to my death, but I can't tell people of what must be a lie to convict my God of sin himself beyond anything that I have ever known or heard of. Universal salvation makes sense and presents a victorious God & Son over sin, death, lost souls and proclaims that every knee will bow down to a Glorious and beloved Father of all. Praise his name, our Merciful Redeemer.

Our job as Christian is to obey the teachings and commands of Lord Jesus Christ and that is enough in our lifetimes to keep us very busy, perhaps forever and in love with a most wonderful God & beloved Father.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

You assume that only you have the right faith and follow Christ alone.

Thank you for reading and replying to my posts. Sorry for my failure in your eyes. Please forgive me for being so wrong and weak before you. I am honest though that I am satisfied with my conclusions, but in your kindness, I will later take up checking out your information better.

If I attacked the commands and teachings of Jesus Christ then you should abase me and correct me, but if I have supported them what in the world are you doing to another believer in Jesus? The difference between us is that I am a follower and believer in Jesus Christ alone (less than your beliefs), and you are a believer is that plus your additional beliefs, so you attack my ignorance and stupidity of what you know and believe. That is ok with me. I believe that when you are standing on Christ with one foot and something else with the other then your footing is questionable and I give you a warning (or others) of the choking and unstably effects of Jesus' Parable's spoke of tares in his garden.

I get your zero, which is fine, and you get my 100 for your knowledge and extra standings that you believe in and should, yet until you change your mind though. Have a wonderful day. Sorry for my less than humorous puns if they were even visible to you.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I guess the rest of the audience out there is listening and so to any of you I give my attention. I really don't have much to say, since I have said it all already, but I will listen to others. I think Der Alter and myself about finished up. He wins, I lose, but anyone can win if they just know what it is that they really believe in. Der Alter does. I do, but his score is higher than mine, so I forfeit any challenge between us. I am at least a good sportsman, even if I am lacking the extra things besides my simple faith in God & Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

These things can be found and studied, if you are willing to know. I thought that you already knew, sorry.

I am very willing to know that is why I have graduate level education in Theology and both Bilbical languages. I find it very insulting when someone assumes that I am not willing to know and that I have not studied.

You are willing to refute beforehand, but not listen or be objective to find out what is true. You are bent upon defense and attack. I am sorry to attack by my placement of Orthodox faith, yet also all denominations and even Unorthodox ones. It is not me against you or vice-versus, it is just simply you checking out things and I try to do the same. ...neither is not being objective enough or open minded enough to try to hold down our battling to respect each other and honor Christ's command for us of being known by our love for one another and not our different standings.

You say you are sorry to attack then imply that I am not objective and open minded. You object to "using supports and many experts" post #41 but you quoted from and linked to at least three sources. You make accusations of pagansim, unscriptural and unbiblical traditions, worldliness, hatred of Jesus and God, polluted faith, etc. Do you consider that is "respect each other and honor Christ's command for us of being known by our love for one another post #38?"

I will try to go back over your 9 sources, but there are some sources with the article that I gave you also. I am supposing that we already have decided what we believe and refuse to see God or Christ any differently.

Yes there were sources at your link to the 140+ year old Universalist article, "Aion/Aionios" but all the sources I quoted from were modern.

Your job seems to try to convert me or save me, turn me over to Orthodox beliefs, for that is the purpose of this Unorthodox area of Christianforums.com.

My "job" which I have been doing for several decades is to seek, teach and preach the truth. To do that I followed Paul's instructions to Timothy, "Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

I am a rather serious person and researcher, but still I develop a logical pattern and follow such, yet not listening very closely to unrepentant persons who have committed extreme violations against Jesus' commands' though being leaders or experts in knowledgeable areas.

Here you seem to be equating "being leaders or experts in knowledgeable areas" with "have committed extreme violations against Jesus' commands' " And that assumption appears to be pointed right at me.

our place is now (2,000 years later) and all Christendom has is a peculiar faith that seems to suggest hypocrisy in the nature of God & Christ

Accusation of "peculiar faith" and "hypocrisy."

Do you blame me for trying to find out for myself and with anyone's non-bias help (discern & listen), what Jesus really said, not a questionable 90% accuracy, but 100% on key items that disturb most people's minds and faiths.

You keep throwing around this "90% accuracy" stuff, where did you get this number? Are you aware that saying this is calling both Jesus and God liars? Did God's word only accomplish 90% of what He wanted? Did 10% of the law pass away? Did Jesus' words pass awy?

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.​

The commands of Christ don't seem to be well known or that of being very popular within today's Christendom, yet to obey them is vital in our personal relationship with Him.

Which commands would those be? How about this commandment? Notice that word "all?"

Mat 22:37-40
(37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(38) This is the first and great commandment.
(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets​

The Tares capitalizing on our shared Faith is no miscalculation over the last 2,000 years and shouldn't be underestimated.

Was Jesus wrong in Matt 16:18?

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.​

It is simply my warning about the Tares that Christ spoke about in his parable, what I believe are the non-Jesus-commandments & -teachings sections of Christendom, are the Christendom's busy-works, unproductive to the Spirit or Gospel of Christ, and much of it is theological based and church believed-in non-Gospel doctrines.

More false accusations without evidence. Perhaps your posts would be more productive if they weren't filled with attacks and accusations against "sections of Christendom."

If you are warning people of a God who will judge them and torment them in everlasting torment forever in Hell if they don't believe in what you tell them, what are you really saying to people, " He is a tyrant and evil God to many unfortunate lost souls?"

Do you think God was a tyrant and evil when He sent down fire from heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and everyone in it; men, women, children, and infants? Or when God commanded Israel to attack pagan cities and kill all the inhabitants; men, women, children, infants? Deut 2:34, 3:6, 20:16-18, 1 Sam 22:19, Jer 41:16, Ezek 9:6,

I was taught by Christ to be loving, kind, forever forgiving, compassionate, understanding, tolerant and to always follow Him alone (the narrow straight road), this done, allows me to live so, as long as I don't believe that God torments outsiders to a non-ending series of torments dying forever. Is it not God who judges and sentences, then how inhumane is such a God to not extinguish the soul but capture in relentlessness of pains and sufferings . I can believe in the beautiful way of Christ and follow him to my death, but I can't tell people of what must be a lie to convict my God of sin himself beyond anything that I have ever known or heard of. Universal salvation makes sense and presents a victorious God & Son over sin, death, lost souls and proclaims that every knee will bow down to a Glorious and beloved Father of all. Praise his name, our Merciful Redeemer

See my [post=66579301]post #39[/post] You are trying to impose your finite, imperfect knowledge and sensibilities on the infinite, perfect God regardless of what scripture says.

Our job as Christian is to obey the teachings and commands of Lord Jesus Christ and that is enough in our lifetimes to keep us very busy, perhaps forever and in love with a most wonderful God & beloved Father.

I guess the entire early church got it wrong but somehow 2000 years later somehow you got it right.

Justin Martyr- First Apology [a.d. 110-165.]

And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass

And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; "110 and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.

Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]

For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,

A certain woman lived with an intemperate4 husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.

But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.14

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 63

In the Apocalypse also, we read the anger of the Lord threatening, and saying, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God mixed in the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; neither shall they have rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.”
2. Since, therefore, the Lord threatens these torments, these punishments in the day of judgment, to those who obey the devil and sacrifice to idols, how does he think that he can act as a priest of God who has obeyed and served the priests of the devil; . .

Cyprian Epistle 30 Chapter 7
He has prepared heaven, but He has also prepared hell. He has prepared places of refreshment, but He has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the light that none can approach unto, but He has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Refutation of all Heresies Book 9 Chapter 23

But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unquenchable fire.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato 3

Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is unquenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.

Tatian’s [A.D. 110-172] Address Chapter 13

The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] De Principiis Part First

the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. A notable proof this of the fire eternal! a notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn, and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?

Origen [A.D. 185-230-254] De Principiis Book 2 Chapter 3

nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.

Minucius Felix [A.D. 210] The Octavius Chapter 35

Nor is there either measure or termination to these torments. There the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them, feeds on them and nourishes them. As the fires of the thunderbolts strike upon the bodies, and do not consume them; as the fires of Mount Aetna and of Mount Vesuvius, and of burning lands everywhere, glow, but are not wasted; so that penal fire is not fed by the waste of those who burn, but is nourished by the unexhausted eating away of their bodies.​

 

[Stephen Kendall]

We are discussing this issue about eternity in JesusChristians.com (last night/this morning) and an interesting perspective has come out of it. I will make a simple copy/paste from the other site to this thread and leave a link to where it came from.

link: http://jesuschristians.com/forum/4-...conciliation-library-of-rodger-tutt?start=150

Stephen's post (spk):

"I read Dave's post above this one you gave and just now yours. I am wondering how a human being deals with even one little God eon? It seems cruel to put a human into such a time period (one of God's). I have a 3 year old son that thinks, "wait a minute" means eternity. My 9 year old son may think a lifetime is an eternity, yet he is noticing Dad isn't an eternity, yet dad is approaching the end (62 years old and counting). So maybe we have blown all this anger causing fuss over the humanly unmeasurable eon out of portion. Sometimes it is better to be a listener than a speaker, but please someone say a little something here."

Dave's post that I referred to may have said it better than my short one above, but why not list eon as eternity, for we should be scared out of our wits about failure in this lifetime to be born again with Christ, right? So Der Alter you win by default and please have a little funny bone in all of this, I accept you as my brother and love you, there is no reason to have friction or allow anger to take root over night into our souls.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Now, I wish solving Trinity was this easy. That would be another thread, I don't believe that I will go there. Please let us be angry but not to let it take root in us, remembering our Lord's command to love each other. Good day my brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Oh, I forgot "Will the son of man find Faith on Earth when he returns"? The answer depends upon us, for we are of Faith if we obey the commands of Christ and in-which being known by our love for one another is very important.

 

[Der Alte]

We are discussing this issue about eternity in JesusChristians.com (last night/this morning) and an interesting perspective has come out of it. I will make a simple copy/paste from the other site to this thread and leave a link to where it came from.

link: http://jesuschristians.com/forum/4-...conciliation-library-of-rodger-tutt?start=150

Stephen's post (spk):

"I read Dave's post above this one you gave and just now yours. I am wondering how a human being deals with even one little God eon? It seems cruel to put a human into such a time period (one of God's). I have a 3 year old son that thinks, "wait a minute" means eternity. My 9 year old son may think a lifetime is an eternity, yet he is noticing Dad isn't an eternity, yet dad is approaching the end (62 years old and counting). So maybe we have blown all this anger causing fuss over the humanly unmeasurable eon out of portion. Sometimes it is better to be a listener than a speaker, but please someone say a little something here."

Dave's post that I referred to may have said it better than my short one above, but why not list eon as eternity, for we should be scared out of our wits about failure in this lifetime to be born again with Christ, right? So Der Alter you win by default and please have a little funny bone in all of this, I accept you as my brother and love you, there is no reason to have friction or allow anger to take root over night into our souls.

Pity that you think it is about winning and losing.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Pity that you think it is about winning and losing.

You are right about that, thank you. Let us be the two of more who come together before the Lord so that he will be here with us.

The purpose of this forum seems satisfied and that is to resolve the issue of our debate about will Jesus find Faith when he comes back. The answer is that he will if we are there for him. Not knowing everything, but at least loving each other and respecting our different views. I have a tiny bit of wisdom from debating here and it is to be careful about hurting others' feelings when I speak what I believe. We can't really do anything about problems, like my idea of tares around us, but we can at least make it easier on each other. I am wrong to use harsh phrases and words that seem to attack you and your standing (much of Christendom and this website as well). Actually I meant to put almost all of Christianity in the group, yet as you said, I am not qualified to judge and calling organized Christian groups having tares or hijacked or other bad terms and meanings, just isn't proper. My conclusion about the validity of being human and believing in eternal torment is correct, though I reserve much deeper thought on the matter (this thought and words should be kept to myself, other than to help what I call fellow Christians choked by such shock). There is the hint of universal salvation in the Scripture, so why not soften our standings on forever tormenting Hell?

I do appreciate you reading my posts, that is a lot for one to do, in itself. Have a wonder day and night in the Lord.

 

[James Is Back]

Why not have this thread locked?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Why not have this thread locked?

No. I have seen Der Alter methods of taking over other honorable searching and discussion threads with his tactics like "I (Der Alter) provided evidence from nine (9) irrefutable modern Greek language sources" and in his striking over-sized Georgia black and red fonts in a barrage of attacks and huge intimations to silence yet another heretic thread. He actually likes to win, shameful that you, Der Alter and you "James is Back" that you both can not admit this simple pride and scheme of yours.

You want this thread and silence it, go ahead. I gave Der Alter my hand in friendship, yet I also admit that I could not hold my tongue in the wrongs that I believed were occurring within our Christian Faith, but never intended to call him or you a heretic or unsaved, and I don't hate or dislike either of you, I just don't see why you call yourselves followers of Christ scheming deceitfully to take apart this thread as you just indicated in the above post of ending it (to closed it). I wouldn't be surprised that your heroes are heretic destroyers like John Calvin or the many others like him. It is awkward that heretic haters act just like the Pharisees to kill or destroy, yet these accused heretics love and follow Christ and that is their real crime, for they, on the way out, pray to God that the heretic haters be forgiven. God is merciful and with Jesus himself asking for forgiveness of his own haters, a universal salvation must have been implemented to those very lost Pharisees when he made that prayer to his Father, or must he have lied and thus all of Christianity blows away like the dust in the Wind! For many of the Pharisees went to their graves and only Jesus' blanket forgiveness forgave them of their horrible crimes (all of their crimes). You fail to see the power of God (the power of the Holy Spirit) that he will accomplish and fulfill his desires for they are good indeed!

There is way too much evidence that universal salvation is very real. I think this is the way you like to speak: There is way too much evidence that universal salvation is very real and the haters of heretics better hope that is true.

I will be back to post some more. I still would rather Der Alter and you to change and accept your incomplete knowledge of the things of God and have room in your hearts to keep true to Christ's commands, especially the key one of "being known by your love for each other (all who profess Jesus is Lord and obey his commands first and foremost, as I say alone").

If the moderators can allow this thread to stay open, to not be run into the ground by such deliberate and intimidating attacks as I see here and other closed Threads involving Der Alter, that would be appreciated. There is victory in life and in death, through Jesus alone.

Like I have said before, forgive me if I am wrong in what I say, but I do believe that it is so.

 

[Norah63]

Unorthodox seems too hard to bear for some posters. Instead of letting the discussions flow.
I appreciate most of Stephen's posts, even if a little long for my taste.
Yet where else would I want to go to read beliefs that others hold, that are not cookie cutter orthodox?
Unity of the faith is not an easy task with the letter of the law, or pure brain power with many degrees, instead of the spirit giving life.
Yes I believe Jesus will find faith, even a little will be enough in His hands.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Unorthodox seems too hard to bear for some posters. Instead of letting the discussions flow.
I appreciate most of Stephen's posts, even if a little long for my taste.
Yet where else would I want to go to read beliefs that others hold, that are not cookie cutter orthodox?
Unity of the faith is not an easy task with the letter of the law, or pure brain power with many degrees, instead of the spirit giving life.
Yes I believe Jesus will find faith, even a little will be enough in His hands.

I woke up this morning wishing I hadn't made my last post. WWJD? I don't know, but I don't feel good being silenced or in responding to such. Jesus was quiet when he was judged. Maybe like he has told us, don't resist. I admired the Disciple Stephen's response when he was about to be martyred, but was it the response that Jesus would want of him? I am sorry to ask. It is all puzzling the attacks and silencing of others. I just want friendship and sharing. I stepped out of line with my accusatory tones at the very start, yet it had seemed appropriate. How does one stay within the teachings of Christ at times like this? It is as though you should be just observing the ocean waves and the storm, yet letting it all pass, keeping your peace. The peace from Christ is more important than the raging storms of life. It is God who judges anyway.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Yes I believe Jesus will find faith, even a little will be enough in His hands.

He can, is able and will. A person's little faith in God's hand is secure and sufficiently supplied with his Holy Spirit living within.

 

[Der Alte]

No. I have seen Der Alter methods of taking over other honorable searching and discussion threads with his tactics like "I (Der Alter) provided evidence from nine (9) irrefutable modern Greek language sources" and in his striking over-sized Georgia black and red fonts in a barrage of attacks and huge intimations to silence yet another heretic thread. He actually likes to win, shameful that you, Der Alter and you "James is Back" that you both can not admit this simple pride and scheme of yours.

You began by linking to a 45 page article published in 1875 in support of your argument about aion/aionios but when I respond with a two page post quoting from 9 Greek sources which I researched myself, and which, if you even read, you have not addressed. Then you also copy/pasted about 6 pages from "absolute assurance in jesus christ" which included pages of discussion and at least 145 scripture, and here you accuse me of "a barrage of attacks and huge intimations to silence yet another heretic thread. .. , shameful that you...simple pride and scheme of yours"

I just don't see why you call yourselves followers of Christ scheming deceitfully to take apart this thread as you just indicated in the above post of ending it (to closed it). I wouldn't be surprised that your heroes are heretic destroyers like John Calvin or the many others like him. It is awkward that heretic haters act just like the Pharisees to kill or destroy, yet these accused heretics love and follow Christ and that is their real crime, for they, on the way out, pray to God that the heretic haters be forgiven. God is merciful and with Jesus himself asking for forgiveness of his own haters, a universal salvation must have been implemented to those very lost Pharisees when he made that prayer to his Father, or must he have lied and thus all of Christianity blows away like the dust in the Wind! For many of the Pharisees went to their graves and only Jesus' blanket forgiveness forgave them of their horrible crimes (all of their crimes). You fail to see the power of God (the power of the Holy Spirit) that he will accomplish and fulfill his desires for they are good indeed!

Nothing but personal attack!

There is way too much evidence that universal salvation is very real. I think this is the way you like to speak: There is way too much evidence that universal salvation is very real and the haters of heretics better hope that is true.

See this link to my [post=66579301]post #39[/post]

I will be back to post some more. I still would rather Der Alter and you to change and accept your incomplete knowledge of the things of God and have room in your hearts to keep true to Christ's commands, especially the key one of "being known by your love for each other (all who profess Jesus is Lord and obey his commands first and foremost, as I say alone").

I have asked you more than once to refrain from insults!

If the moderators can allow this thread to stay open, to not be run into the ground by such deliberate and intimidating attacks as I see here and other closed Threads involving Der Alter, that would be appreciated. There is victory in life and in death, through Jesus alone.

Like I have said before, forgive me if I am wrong in what I say, but I do believe that it is so.

More insults. Why don't you try addressing the topic with supporting material that you have researched for yourself, as I do, instead of copying everything from universalist websites which say what you want to hear?

 

[he-man]

There is way too much evidence that universal salvation is very real. I think this is the way you like to speak: There is way too much evidence that universal salvation is very real and the haters of heretics better hope that is true

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness..

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I guess that I will come back to the idea that if we are being choked by status quo and need some relief, there is a world of knowledge and facts out there to investigate. Check it out. This is for those who need some help. Explore the main topics that have cemented much of Christendom, for the choking may well be from a human pursuit of perfection through knowledge and not obedience. Jesus tells us to just obey him to show that we are his and love him. If a belief in torment Hell is harming your faith, then research everything that you can about it. You can start with universal salvation, much of which is hinted in the Bible. Be open minded and see what God will tell you about this idea. Find out that the Greek words for eon have slowly evolved through writers like Plato into a lot more than the way they were spoken of hundreds of years earlier in Jesus day. Find out why our general faith has changed a lot, being more of faith in man trying to figure it all out as knowledge without obeying and trusting Jesus to go the narrow and straight way to God. You will be enlightened and with the peace of Christ if you truly search for the truth yourselves. Faith is a shared thing that comes to all through the Holy Spirit living within us as we try to obey Jesus and accept this as our knowledge and gain.

I will post each day what comes to me till the end of this thread be it today or years in the future. If any would want a better platform to discuss things then either meet me on http://jesuschristians.com/forum as spk (stephen) or you may email me to discuss things at stephen_paul_kendall@yahoo.com . I really only wanted to help others to relieve the burden and choking of things that were added to our shared faith.

It seems best for now to continue as to help others to be enlightened with the faith of Christ so that Jesus will find faith when he returns to Earth. I would like this to be a meeting place of those who need to escape the tares of God's garden. All are welcome.

May God bless this forum and all of its members whether Unorthodox or Orthodox, but remembering that all who trust and believe in Jesus alone will not be disappointed. I say Jesus alone, because Jesus said the straight and narrow road that leads to life is the road to follow.

Since I am not a scholar, I will try to offer up the pieces slowly each day not to present a case for arguments, but to give those who want to check them out the pathway that I went over time to draw some of the conclusions about our shared faith. This may take time. I don't promise communicating with everyone, but will with those who make it sincerely easier to talk with, for I am not an intellectual and am not here to debate, but am concern and want to help those afflicted by a real problem within our Faith in Jesus. I hope to have only a friendly fellowship with any who want the same. I have been a farmer and construction worker most of my life, much like the simpler life styles of our Lord while he was on Earth and his disciples, except for Apostle Paul and perhaps Matthews, Luke (oh well). I must say also that I did attend several colleges for a few years awhile ago (mostly tech and engineering). Have a great day for now, will be back a little latter.

And I will try to limit my posts to keep it more interesting, sorry about this one being a bit long. Praise God!

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Explore the main topics that have cemented much of Christendom, for the choking may well be from a human pursuit of perfection through knowledge and not obedience. Jesus tells us to just obey him to show that we are his and love him.

By all means everyone should research everything for themselves but I recommend that they not go to universalist websites where they will only get a one sided skewed view .

If a belief in torment Hell is harming your faith, then research everything that you can about it.

The Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place where the unrighteous were punished in fire forever and they called it Sheol and Gehinnom. For documentation see link to my [post=66579301]post #39[/post] this thread.

You can start with universal salvation, much of which is hinted in the Bible. Be open minded and see what God will tell you about this idea. Find out that the Greek words for eon have slowly evolved through writers like Plato into a lot more than the way they were spoken of hundreds of years earlier in Jesus day.

You lack of knowledge is showing loud and clear. Plato lived about 428 years BC! Philo lived ca. 50 years BC! And both document tha the Greek words aion/aionios meant forever, eternal, unending, everlasting, etc.

Find out why our general faith has changed a lot, being more of faith in man trying to figure it all out as knowledge without obeying and trusting Jesus to go the narrow and straight way to God. You will be enlightened and with the peace of Christ if you truly search for the truth yourselves. Faith is a shared thing that comes to all through the Holy Spirit living within us as we try to obey Jesus and accept this as our knowledge and gain.

The way the faith was changed was by the addition of universalism and rejection of hell. For a thorough study of the Greek words aion/aionios in my [post=66579301]post #29-30[/post] this thread.

I would like this to be a meeting place of those who need to escape the tares of God's garden. All are welcome.

The tares are universalism and rejection of hell.