Wifely Submission

[SallyNow]

I agree, if the wife or husband by some psychological deficit enjoys being submissive, then whatever, not my concern. I just have a MAJOR problem with forced submission.

If someone is being pressured into being "submissive", and their psychological illness is used as an excuse or exploited to get the desired effect (submissive partner), then it is forced submission.

Uh, BDSM where both parthers agree is not a deficit, it is a way of sexual expression. Kinda of harsh to call it deficit. You will not recognize them in the street. They are just like you and me.....

Forced submission is hell. I am a survivor of such a relationship.....The problem is that submission is often pressured upon the woman through sex. Man wants to have it, woman has to give it...whether she likes it or not. He was a Christian and I ended up being raped and other wise sexually abused.

So, I tend to be very suspicious about the fact that Christian men think that the woman should submit because the bible says so. They forget the rest of the bible and the way Jesus treated all His followers. He washed the feet of them to show them that He is the teacher but He is equal to them and respects them....

But some people who participate in BDSM relationships may indeed have psychological illnesses that are being exploited for the use of the other partner(s). But that's another topic altogether.

Submission is not so easy to define as "do what he says". It's very complicated, and for someone to be truly submitted to, they must let the other decide, with no pressure, no threats, nothing but respect and kindess and love. And Christianity demands everyone be submissive, everyone be kind and respectful and ready to serve. It's not about beign a slave, but about being parteners in serving each other:

21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Also, let us keep in mind that this we are not longer in the culture, society, or age when these letters were written. What they say are still applicable, yes, but it's not as simple as sticking them in a Google translator and coming up with the real, intended meaning. Context does a lot to show us what something really means.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

The problem is no one that disagrees w/ what the submission (which is clearly in scripture...so you either believe God or not) understand what is meant by submission. It doesn't mean grovelling and doing every whim, nor does it mean you have no right and do no thinking of your own or any leadership whatsoever. No no no!

Ex: A woman is a pastor. In that position she is leadership. God set her as that while as pastor. But she's also a wife and w/ her husband her husband is then the leader. That doesn't mean she grovels and does his every whim. No. It means that out of love they work together. It's a two way thing, the man must love the woman and then the woman submits out of love. It has nothing to do w/ control or power. It's mearly how God established it, the man to be the head. It's that simple.

Now if you don't understand that...then I hope and pray the Lord reveals it to you. Good day.

 

[SallyNow]

The problem is no one that disagrees w/ what the submission (which is clearly in scripture...so you either believe God or not) understand what is meant by submission. It doesn't mean grovelling and doing every whim, nor does it mean you have no right and do no thinking of your own or any leadership whatsoever. No no no!

Ex: A woman is a pastor. In that position she is leadership. God set her as that while as pastor. But she's also a wife and w/ her husband her husband is then the leader. That doesn't mean she grovels and does his every whim. No. It means that out of love they work together. It's a two way thing, the man must love the woman and then the woman submits out of love. It has nothing to do w/ control or power. It's mearly how God established it, the man to be the head. It's that simple.

Now if you don't understand that...then I hope and pray the Lord reveals it to you. Good day.

No, it's not simple. The Bible was written for all time, but it was still written in certain times, and it had to make sense to those first readers. Bible translation and interpretation is rarely "simple" or "easy". It's complicated, it involves understanding the traditions, cultures, and societies of Biblical times and of times inbetween and up till now, and it involves a lot of time and energy and willingness to read and listen and pray.

 

[Lanakila]

I personally believe that the Scriptural teaching that wife submit to their husband out of obedience to God is not only archiac but damaging to both spouses and the marriage. In fact as a former fundamentalist Christian wife I submitted, and my husband demanded it (guilt tripped me about God's wishes for me if I rebelled). Our marriage ended because the love that was orignially there was destroyed by not only the concept of submitting, but by the practice.

I eventually lost respect for him because he didn't treat me as an equal in the relationship. He lost respect for me because I let him treat me the way the Bible says works. Frankly it doesn't work in a healthy marriage. When the teaching of submission was given women were property and betrothed while they were children to some man they didn't know. Not only that, but that man likely had way more than one wife.

 

[TheMissus]

The problem is no one that disagrees w/ what the submission (which is clearly in scripture...so you either believe God or not) understand what is meant by submission. It doesn't mean grovelling and doing every whim, nor does it mean you have no right and do no thinking of your own or any leadership whatsoever. No no no!

Ex: A woman is a pastor. In that position she is leadership. God set her as that while as pastor. But she's also a wife and w/ her husband her husband is then the leader. That doesn't mean she grovels and does his every whim. No. It means that out of love they work together. It's a two way thing, the man must love the woman and then the woman submits out of love. It has nothing to do w/ control or power. It's mearly how God established it, the man to be the head. It's that simple.

Now if you don't understand that...then I hope and pray the Lord reveals it to you. Good day.

But you still haven't defined how a wife is expected to submit. How does "submit out of love" clarify anything if you haven't explained "submit"?

If it is working together, then it's not submission. It's a marriage of equals. Which is it?

 

[gwenmead]

I voted "other". Here's my explanation.

The plethora of Christian denominations makes it clear to me that people view, interpret, and follow the Bible differently. This very thread makes it clear that there isn't a common understanding of what it means for a wife to submit, either in or out of a Biblical context. (Though, truth be told, it doesn't make much sense to me to try to deny, mitigate, or dumb down what the Bible actually says about it.)

Consequently I figure that whether or not a Christian wife should "submit" to her husband depends on how much of a Biblical literalist she is. If she's moderate in her interpretation of the various scriptures about women, then perhaps she'll work out a more or less egalitarian relationship with her spouse (perhaps using Galatians 3:26-29 as a guide).

On the other hand, if she's a literalist, she'd best be submitting to her spouse, regardless. One would hope that her husband would follow the additional injunction of "husbands, love your wives"; but that's really up to him, not her. The Galatians verses can serve as a consolation that she is spiritually equal in God's eyes, even though she isn't materially equal in the real world.

Incidentally, unilateral submission cannot happen within an equal relationship. The two states contradict one another.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I assume your answer is "No" then?

Are you familiar with the comeback about what happens when one "assumes" things?

 

[quantumspirit]

wives should submit to husbands when possible, and husbands should also submit to wives!

 

[TheMissus]

What about the husbands that want their wives to be strong, independent women? Are the wives being insubordinate for not following the Biblical orders to "submit"? Or would they not submit by being doormats when it clearly goes against their husbands' wishes?

 

[kopilo]

An independant women to me wouldn't want the majority of their husband's net worth hanging off her fingers in the form of diamond rings. [/end satire]

 

[jesusmysaviour76]

The bible tells us that the woman needs to submit but it also tells us that our husbands need to love us like Christ loved the church.

In saying that if you are married to a non Christian he may not love you like Christ loved the church, so if he asks you to do immoral things then I don't believe that God expects you to submit. Jesus healed on the sabbath, he went against the "Law". I think we can become too legalistic and not rely on our wisdom and God's guidance to show us the right decision.

 

[kopilo]

"In saying that if you are married to a non Christian he may not love you like Christ loved the church, so if he asks you to do immoral things then I don't believe that God expects you to submit."

What happens if a wife's husband is Christian and asks her to do something immoral?

 

[Emmy]

Dear KatAutumn, you had some good replies, and I agree. Paul did not say to submit, whatever the demand. He was trying to teach a standard for believers of Christian behaviour. A Christian is, or should, always be doing what Christ teaches, men love their wives, wives love their husband, parents love their children, and children love their parents. The father rules with love and fairness, the mother does too. Where LOVE rules, there will always be Peace and Joy. While the children are small they listen to their parents, and when they are old enough to decide for themselves, the parents guide them lovingly and helpfully. That`s why it is easier when both parents are Christians, but we do not live in a perfect world, we live in an imperfect one, and have to do our best. I say this humbly and kindly, KatAutumn, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[full_of_faith]

The problem is no one that disagrees w/ what the submission (which is clearly in scripture...so you either believe God or not) understand what is meant by submission. It doesn't mean grovelling and doing every whim, nor does it mean you have no right and do no thinking of your own or any leadership whatsoever. No no no!

Ex: A woman is a pastor. In that position she is leadership. God set her as that while as pastor. But she's also a wife and w/ her husband her husband is then the leader. That doesn't mean she grovels and does his every whim. No. It means that out of love they work together. It's a two way thing, the man must love the woman and then the woman submits out of love. It has nothing to do w/ control or power. It's mearly how God established it, the man to be the head. It's that simple.

Now if you don't understand that...then I hope and pray the Lord reveals it to you. Good day.

Then if "the man to be the head" to me means that the woman is to submit to her husband and what he says go. Not in my world! My husband and I are equals, and I believe that is the way marriage should be. Hey, if the wife WANTS to submit to her husband, that is fine, it's her choice. She shouldn't do it because she feels that she HAS TO.

 

[Rochir]

Ah, you have to love these salvationist monotheistic religions and there total disenfranchisement of women.

Yeah, let's also discuss the "rights" of women in traditionalist Hindu or Konfuzian families!The suppresion of women's right of self-determonation is a global problem which cannot really be tied to one specific religion!

 

[Athene]

It's slightly ironic that Christianity touts itself as the religion of freedom, through God's grace we are free from sin, through Christ we have been set free. Yet this freedom some how bypasses half the human race. Through Eve's sin we are not allowed to lead in churches or teach a man, we must be subject to our husbands, man is the glory of God but women is merely the glory of man therefore we must cover our heads in worship otherwise it is shameful. How is this any different from any of the other religions which practice the subjugation of women?

And the church tries to explain this away by telling women that God made us to be submissive and that by denying our submissive nature we are going against our natural feminine roles.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

So Kat, do you believe a wife should stand behind her husband, or she stand by herself? The husband is supposed to be the spiritual leader of the household; unfortunately, today's society has said a man has no right to be the leader of the house. Why? Because the woman is the one giving birth to the kids and therefore she has more parental rights and more say than the man. Please tell me I'm wrong.

BTW, I'm the spiritual leader and boss of my house. My wife stands behind me, but I respect her enough to get her opinion on things. However, you guys don't want men in charge, you want men to succumb to the authority of women. Maybe that's why you have such a hard time with accepting Christianity.

 

[TheMissus]

Nice of you to tell us what we think.

 

[gwenmead]

The husband is supposed to be the spiritual leader of the household; unfortunately, today's society has said a man has no right to be the leader of the house. Why? Because the woman is the one giving birth to the kids and therefore she has more parental rights and more say than the man. Please tell me I'm wrong.

I can't say whether you're right or wrong here, because it isn't specifically clear to me what exactly you mean by this. Are you referring to family law here?

If so, I can agree with you that while much of family law is not written to be gender biased in theory, it often ends up that way in practice; and that isn't right.

But I'm not convinced this has anything to do with spiritual leadership. Though I'd be happy to be enlightened as to the connection, since perhaps I simply don't see it.

BTW, I'm the spiritual leader and boss of my house. My wife stands behind me, but I respect her enough to get her opinion on things. However, you guys don't want men in charge, you want men to succumb to the authority of women. Maybe that's why you have such a hard time with accepting Christianity.

I'm glad that you and your wife have an arrangement that works for you. That's no bad thing.

However, I think you may have been misinformed about "what women want" as far as who should be in charge. If you have been hanging around women who want to dominate men, I suppose I can see why you might broad-brush the topic.

What a woman wants depends on the woman. You are right that I, as an individual, don't want men in charge of my life. That has almost nothing to do with gender, however, and everything to do with believing that I am an adult, and am the best authority when it comes to my own life. Anybody else "in charge", so to speak, would likely screw it up - and experience has reinforced this.

I don't care whether or not men submit to women. I would rather see a world where men and women are considered fully equal adults, in partnership or out of it, responsible for themselves as individuals. It is not an equal world if one gender must give in to the other: matriarchy is no better than patriarchy.

I suspect more women think like this than you may realize.

 

[kopilo]

*quietly slides left hand off of the computer table...*

Though, in my defense, my husband chose my rings, not me. :o

, but if your ring contained a different gem stone then a diamond or even 'worse' if it contained a ziconia or colored glass. You'd proberly be mighty annoyed with him.

"I am submitting to my husband! He wants me to be strong, freethinking, and independant, and that's what I'm doing!"