Wifely Submission

[PETE_]

For a long time, I forced myself to go along with what is termed the "biblical model" of husband-wife relationship, though it really didn't fit in with all that I instinctively thought right. I thought as a Christian, I had to acept the husband authority-wife-subordinate helper, but equal! model....till I realised that that model is just some people's interpretation of Scripture...

... and really, it goes against all other Scriptural paradigms...such as the basic creation of all humans in God's image, God's own basic nature of perfect, unquestionable justice and righteousness, Jesus' unconcern for authority structures, God's own self-giving and submissive nature as shown in the Son, the Trinity where harmony and love are the normative, not authority!

Jesus gave up the authority He had as God to submit Himself to the will of the Father to sacrifice Himself for us. If He can serve the Father and others, why should we not follow that example. The scripture on roles in marriage are pretty clear.
Is the church equal to Jesus, or is His bride (the church) to be under His Authority


I cannot tell you how FREE I felt when i realised that an egalitarian relationship between men and women was possible in the church, and indeed, is what i believe is THE Christian pattern.

It fits in so much better with the God of love and justice. It fits in so much better with the God who came down to die for all. It fits in so much better with the One who accepts all on the same terms, but has special concern for the poor, the downtrodden, the outcasts, and brings them on par with others. This God, want new authority structures, and hierarchies? No....never.

There are no new authority structures. God set up marriage with Adam and Eve. The Christian life is all about submission and service.



We must re-examine, with open minds, our pre-conceptions about those few..so few!... passages that make us hold these, even to our own mind, strange views. Lets not be afraid to question them if they don't seem right. We have, after all, the mind of Christ.

Sorry for going on a bit!

Having an open mind is one thing. But can you support your view with scripture? Being submissive to God is a must before we can truely submit to others.

 

[jak]

Well, yes. There are two threads running through Scripture...one, that there is equality in God's creation of men and women in His image, and in





His salvation of all through Christ, and the free bestowing of the Spiirt on all, with no restriction of gifts to any sex...and then the other thread, where men are seen as primary

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

I keep hearing this propaganda over and over again, like it actually happens.

But it doesn't.

Most husbands don't "lead" their wives, like one leads sheep or lambs. They might talk like that,but most men actually have a very egalitarian relationship with the wives, because if it were any other way, the wives would kick their butts or leave.

The ones that try to "lead" their wives end up with very subservient, cowed women, or with women who are unhappy, or with women who eventually tell them to take a hike.

If something doesn't happen often, does that make it any less true? People abuse the Bible - that doesn't change what the Bible says. Their imperfection doesn't make the word of God evil when they twist it - it's just their twisted words.

half of the problem is that you don't get half of the picture. Answer me this: why does the Bible say that the wife is to be subservient to the husband? Until you understand that, you understand nothing of the Biblical model for marriage.

In the Christian faith as I know it, He is the Son of God. He must be obeyed. If obedience is required the phrasing of a command is unimportant. Christ isn't abusing His authority, but that doesn't make Him any less the boss.

If Jesus appeared and told you to "jump", would not failing to jump be disobedience to God?

You're still ignoring the part about what the husband is said to do. The Bible doesn't play with "ifs" on marriage, it's direct.

If the husband loves his wife - truly loves her - there is no need for either of them to be submissive or dominant. It's thoroughly unimportant who's in charge and who's following if both people love each other equally.

Being in charge is only important if you're worried about dissention.

Yeah, because I'm definitely encouraging wife beating, right? People don't care to follow the model - that doesn't make it any less than it is.

And really, you can think what you want. It's not about being in charge. If you want to pointlessly argue, go right ahead. I'm just not going to when you're arguing against something I'm not arguing for. It's stupid and pointless.

 

[Konkurrent]

If something doesn't happen often, does that make it any less true?

If something is statistically more likely to end in failure, does that make it more or less intelligent to do?

Answer me this: why does the Bible say that the wife is to be subservient to the husband? Until you understand that, you understand nothing of the Biblical model for marriage.

See, once again you're making the mistake of automatically assuming that anyone who doesn't see things your way is wrong. Ask yourself this: if a great many people disagree with you on why the Bible says that a wife must be subservient, why do you dismiss their opinion without a second thought? What makes you sure that your Christian view is automatically superior to another Christian's view?

You're still ignoring the part about what the husband is said to do. The Bible doesn't play with "ifs" on marriage, it's direct.

I'm not ignoring it. You're just stuck on it.

Yeah, because I'm definitely encouraging wife beating, right?

Never said that, but it's interesting that you automatically jumped to that conclusion. I wonder why that keeps springing up in your mind...

People don't care to follow the model - that doesn't make it any less than it is.

But strangely enough, the people least likely to follow that model (agnostics and atheists) are also the people least likely to have a marriage ending in divorce.

Why do you think that is?

It's stupid and pointless.

I agree, but we're talking about a different "it", I'll wager.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

If something is statistically more likely to end in failure, does that make it more or less intelligent to do?

Depends entirely on what failure is, you yourself said that you can't say what is and isn't a successful or unsuccessful marriage.

See, once again you're making the mistake of automatically assuming that anyone who doesn't see things your way is wrong. Ask yourself this: if a great many people disagree with you on why the Bible says that a wife must be subservient, why do you dismiss their opinion without a second thought? What makes you sure that your Christian view is automatically superior to another Christian's view?

See, you still aren't answering it!!!

It's too bad every single argument in this thread made against the Biblical model fails to even once reference the Bible for the Biblical model to attack it.

I'm not ignoring it. You're just stuck on it.

Yeah, because it's essential to the Biblical model and each and every argument made in this thread against the Biblical model has to ignore it to be made.

Never said that, but it's interesting that you automatically jumped to that conclusion. I wonder why that keeps springing up in your mind...

Because, over a 300+ post thread, you get the general jist of the argument made against something so clear and perfect.

But strangely enough, the people least likely to follow that model (agnostics and atheists) are also the people least likely to have a marriage ending in divorce.

Why do you think that is?

They're also the least likely to get married, least likely to have kids, and aren't subject to ignorant abuse of God's word to create power in a marriage.

I agree, but we're talking about a different "it", I'll wager.

Most certainly are. That's why I said it.

 

[TheMissus]

I'm pretty sure a marriage that ends in divorce wouldn't be considered successful. If a marriage ends in divorce, it's a failure. And if you plan on using my own argument against me, (or Konkurrent's) you might want to quote one of my posts where either of us said that divorces may still be a successful marriage because we can't read their minds.

More Christian marriages end in divorce than any other religion. Now why would that be?

 

[Lisa0315]

I answered "Other" because women should submit even if their husbands are not Christians. I do agree that submission does not include obedience to an act of immorality.

 

[MemeBuster]

As I'm reading this thread I'm just fascinated by how people can interpret the Bible in so many different ways based on where they live and what are the social and cultural norms of their time.

It's like there is no right or wrong, it can pretty much be read in whatever way you want it!

I would vote "Yes, without question regardless of what the husband commands." At least, this used to be the common view for centuries. Did they had it wrong? What has changed except the secular social and cultural norms of our society? And What's next, ordination of women?!! A woman president?!


MB.

 

[PETE_]

More Christian marriages end in divorce than any other religion. Now why would that be?

That would be because so many claim to be "christians", and clearly are not. Christianity is kind of the default religion in this country to many people.

 

[TheMissus]

...... So, when the statistics don't go in your favor, question their spirituality and honesty?

 

[PETE_]

As I'm reading this thread I'm just fascinated by how people can interpret the Bible in so many different ways based on where they live and what are the social and cultural norms of their time.

It's like there is no right or wrong, it can pretty much be read in whatever way you want it!

MB.

As evidenced by the varying views on the Koran, I would think you would understand that, but also know that each person is responsible for their own response to God Word.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

That would be because so many claim to be "christians", and clearly are not. Christianity is kind of the default religion in this country to many people.

I once asked my friend John while over his house and playing DnD "John, what religion are you?"
"I don't know, I think we're Catholic," he said. "Dad, what religion are we?"
"Catholic," his dad said.
"Yup," John said.

Later, when his dad wasn't around, I asked John, "John, do you beleive in God?"
He replied, "pffft, no!"


And this is a true story.

 

[TheMissus]

Yay for anecdotal evidence!

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

Yay for anecdotal evidence!

Oh wait, let me edit that:

I once asked my friend John while over his house and playing DnD "John, what religion are you?"
"I don't know, I think we're Catholic," he said. "Dad, what religion are we?"
"Catholic," his dad said.
"Yup," John said.

Later, when his dad wasn't around, I asked John, "John, do you beleive in God?"
He replied, "pffft, no!"


And this is a true story. It proves me right and you wrong. Yay for anecdotal evidence!

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

...... So, when the statistics don't go in your favor, question their spirituality and honesty?

Sorry Missus, your supposed 'fact' wasn't supported by any evidence.

 

[TheMissus]

Sorry Missus, your supposed 'fact' wasn't supported by any evidence.

Oh, silly me. I assumed you'd read the thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=27002961&postcount=293

Which is from here.

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

It's pretty silly to assume anything.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ writes biased articles.

I don't see what it has to do with this thread, anyway.

I suppose you're linking wifely submission with failed marriages?

 

[TheMissus]

If you'd read the article, you'd know that the source was a Christian research organization. http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=AboutBarna

Christian marriages-- which would be those most likely to follow the Biblical model, which is supposed to be the best model for marriage-- have the highest rate of divorce. It's really not that difficult of logic.

And I shouldn't erroneously assume that you'd read the thread-- you should have read it. It's not a leap to assume that someone joining the conversation has had enough manners to catch up on the discussion.

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

There's no substance to the conclusions you're drawing. Even the religioustolerance.org article mentions the problems. For me, as well, i'm not American so I don't know what relevance the study has for my country. In this post, you just came on here and posed an off-topic question. It's completely unreasonable for you to assume that i'm involved in the thread your statements came from and the way you presented the 'fact' was unsupported with evidence in this thread.

 

[TheMissus]

Huh? The post you linked to is on topic. If you'd actually read the thread and followed the conversation you'd see that. It's not unreasonable to expect people to catch up on conversations when they come into the discussion midway. It's considered polite by most online forum standards.

Would you care to explain why there's "no substance" to my claims? There's a correlation between religion and divorce rate. There are multiple factors that compound the divorce rate for Christians (most notably the young marriage age) but it's undeniable that Christians do in fact have the highest divorce rate. When some people in this thread assert that the Christian model is the best model for marriage, they've got some explaining as to why Christians have the most divorces. The two statements don't jibe. Clearly, something isn't adding up. The statistics have been verified, which leads me to believe that "the Christian model is the best model for marriage" would be the faulty statement.