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Wicca:Good Or Bad Final Answers

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Marcel

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Gunny... If something offends unless you start believing it doesn't... there just might be something very obvious you're overlooking.

Expectations and demands are never a healthy thing to base a relationship on. I think anyone with a good head on their shoulders would agree with that, and a higher power with divine ultimate wisdom aught to know better too.

I could never have a loving respecting relationship with someone who'd expect me to succumb to the notion of him being my superior. One being higher and the other being lower does not offer room to seeing eye to eye. And anyone unwilling to repect that, is unwilling to respect me as a person.

The new testament fully consists of other's reports on Christ's words and deeds. If you think people are incapable of defending words, without ever wanting to back down an inch, or seccond guessing themselves, I'd like to remind you that you t.m.h.o. are very much establishing yourself as the prime example of such a thing being quite possible.

You can post all the scripture you want for all I'm concerned, as long as you don't object to others speaking their mind in return.

Maybe I have faith that if there would be a god, it would be a just loving god, who's cool with me being who I am, applying myself to make a positive contribution to this world. A god capable of passing on better words than that bible you so eagerly quote from. Maybe I have more faith than you think.

That fire-arms crack of mine was uncalled for, but I'd be a liar to deny that your existence scares me more, than that of any witch ever could.
Hopefully I'll encounter posts from you in the furure, beyond mere copying and pasting, that'll aid in somewhat diminishing that unnerving sensation.
 
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Gunny

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Originally posted by Marcel

I could never have a loving respecting relationship with someone who'd expect me to succumb to the notion of him being my superior.


I am in agreement with you that is why I acknowledge that Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

I am but a mere man, a repentent sinner saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

I am nothing apart from my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who reigns over all that has been, all that is, and all that is to be.
 
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Inspired

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Is it possible for you not to force your beliefs on others?
Just because you believe in God doesn't mean everyone does, and no one will know who's right til that day comes, so til then is it possible to live and let live?
If someone practices Wicca does it in anyway affect your fate?
 
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LouisBooth

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"no one will know who's right til that day comes"

*sigh* Why must you read into my statements. Didn't I just say we will see in time. I don't "force" my beliefs on others, I tell them the truth, if they want to reject it thats okay with me, I did my part.
 
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Inspired

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"no one will know who's right til that day comes"

*sigh* Why must you read into my statements. Didn't I just say we will see in time. I don't "force" my beliefs on others, I tell them the truth, if they want to reject it thats okay with me, I did my part.

I wasn't referring to anyone in perticular, that's why I didn't quote anyone.
 
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T

Tom Servo

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Originally posted by Inspired
Is it possible for you not to force your beliefs on others?
Just because you believe in God doesn't mean everyone does, and no one will know who's right til that day comes, so til then is it possible to live and let live?
If someone practices Wicca does it in anyway affect your fate?

 

ahhh...

But Christ has commanded us to bear witness of Him.

If I walk passed a house that has just caught fire , and i see people in that house who do not know there house is on fire, do i just ignore them because it doesn't "effect my fate" or do I warn them?

As a Christian i know the fate of those who reject Christ, so I must warn them, that they might be saved. now you can choose to heed the warning or ignore it.
 
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Inspired

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I wasn't referring to anyone in perticular, that's why I didn't quote anyone."

you posted after me, but okay. :) Next time include something like

To everyone:

in your post. thus no confusion.

Well I really didn't have an option but to post after you, as you where the last post, but in the future, I will try to be more clear. :)
 
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LouisBooth

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"I will try to be more clear. "

Good because in a conversation if I say something and you look at me an ask a question I can safely think you are talking to me. You need to put some sort of statement to clairfy it or the person will address you as you were talking to them.
 
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Havoc

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"no one will know who's right til that day comes"

*sigh* Why must you read into my statements. Didn't I just say we will see in time. I don't "force" my beliefs on others, I tell them the truth, if they want to reject it thats okay with me, I did my part.

Actually you don't tell them the truth, you tell them what you believe to be the truth. It's a significant difference.
 
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Havoc

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Originally posted by Tom Servo
 

ahhh...

But Christ has commanded us to bear witness of Him.


More correctly, you believe Christ commanded you, and you believe he was correct in doing so.

If I walk passed a house that has just caught fire , and i see people in that house who do not know there house is on fire, do i just ignore them because it doesn't "effect my fate" or do I warn them?

The problem with your analogy is it has no direct connection to what we're talking about. Your analogy assumes that you have the truth, which is not a given. To make you analogy more directly comparable you'd have to alter it slightly.

If I walk passed a house in my imagination, even though I'd never seen it, and I imagined that it has just caught fire , and I imagine I see people in that house who do not know there house is on fire, do I then phone up a stranger whose house I've never seen and warn them that their house is on fire?

As a Christian i know the fate of those who reject Christ, so I must warn them, that they might be saved. now you can choose to heed the warning or ignore it.

As a Christian you believe you know the fate of those who don't believe in your God. Your beliefs in their fate are no more "truth" than their beliefs.
 
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FordPrefect

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I will try to be more clear. "

Good because in a conversation if I say something and you look at me an ask a question I can safely think you are talking to me. You need to put some sort of statement to clairfy it or the person will address you as you were talking to them.

Come on Louis, give us a break. I think the admin job is getting to your head.
 
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amie

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Originally posted by gunnysgt
I am in agreement with you that is why I acknowledge that Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

I am but a mere man, a repentent sinner saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

I am nothing apart from my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who reigns over all that has been, all that is, and all that is to be.

Hi Gunny
usa.gif


I think its great that you have these beliefs, I really do. I think faith is a beautiful thing...However can you acknowledge that your beliefs are not for everyone? or do you honestly believe that everyone should believe as you do? I really want just your opinion on this gunny... 
usa.gif
 
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Gunny

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Originally posted by amie
Hi Gunny
usa.gif


I think its great that you have these beliefs, I really do. I think faith is a beautiful thing...However can you acknowledge that your beliefs are not for everyone? or do you honestly believe that everyone should believe as you do? I really want just your opinion on this gunny... 
usa.gif

I don't believe the question is: Should others believe as I do?

I believe the more important question is: Does an individual desire Salvation by the subsituionary death of Jesus Christ?

Jesus said" I am the truth, the way, and the life."

Do I believe Jesus when He states: No man comes to the Father lest He come through me. Yes.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ, is His. God's Word states that Jesus is the author of Salvation.

My hope and prayer is that no one would perish, just as God's Word states.

God's Word states that there is no other name unto Salvation, than Jesus Christ. God's Word states He(Jesus) is the Alpha and the Omega.
 
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Gunny

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Puritans and Witches
A historical comparison to today's revival of witchcraft
By Jay Rogers

One of the great accusations levelled against Christians who oppose witchcraft is that we want to bring back "the burning times" (i.e., the Salem witch trials). Yet Salem is misunderstood. Most believe that it was the Christians of the Puritan colony who got together one day and decided to hang some witches. That is simply not true.

While I was an English teacher at a high school in Beverly, Massachusetts (the town just north of Salem), I noticed that many of the teachers did units right around Hallowe'en on witches. I thought it was more than a little unfair that Christian teachers were not allowed call their holiday "Christmas" and to teach units on the birth of the King of Kings. But those sympathetic to witches could present their pagan holiday.

As a part of these teaching units, the Puritans were often portrayed as being stuffy, overly-intellectual, anti-sentimental and intolerant. Nothing could be further from the truth! There was more real love in the Puritan community than we have today in our churches. Read the accounts of the Plymouth and Boston settlements and you'll see what I mean! For instance, William Bradford's History of Plymouth Plantation portrays the toils and great sacrifices these people made for each other. These were people who had often been literally bloodied for their faith. They experienced persecution first hand. Yet they still loved Jesus and their fellow man.

The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded by the Puritans in the 1630s with Salem being one of its principle port towns. It had become evident by the 1670s, however, that most of the citizens of the colony were not Puritans (or "born-again Christians" in today's vernacular). By the 1690s, when the Salem Witch hysteria took place, the Puritan era had pretty much waned. By this time, the Puritans were the minority.

The prevailing idea today is that it was the Puritans who killed witches in Salem. Actually, the situation was that some innocent people were accused of withcraft by people who were not genuinely converted at all. The only real witchcraft going on was practiced by a servant of the town pastor! But because she confessed her sin and repented the townspeople, as a whole, forgave her. The resulting problem of the Salem witch trials was that you had superstitious, unconverted people using extra-biblical, unorthodox criteria by which to judge witches.

A pastor in Salem stirred up the original problem with irresponsible preaching and false accusations. But then he had to deflect guilt, because the witch hysteria was found to be eminating from his own household! The townspeople began accusing others and the hysteria spread. The civil court had plenty of nonsense to draw from, written mainly by Anglican pastors from England. These men argued that traditional, extra-biblical accounts of the occult were acceptable as information on the nature of the occult, and this side won the debate (with an enormous amount of bogus evidence).

It is untrue to say that the Puritans or "born-again Christians" were responsible for the deaths of innocent people. In fact, the Salem witchcraft trials were stopped by a Puritan pastor from Beverly, Massachusetts. He charged that none of the evidence met biblical criteria. So it was a true minister of the gospel who stopped the state from executing witches in Salem. The minister who brought the charges was dismissed from his pastorate due to his role in the affair. What should be our response to witchcraft today?

As Christians, we have two avenues of resistance to witchcraft: ecclesiastical and civil.

It is the role of the Church to oppose witchcraft with all our might, even to the point of publicly condemning certain witches (if they refuse to repent) through imprecatory prayer proclamations. Sorcery is condemned throughout the Bible [see Ex. 7:11; 8:7,18; Isa. 47:9,12]. Sanctions are imposed on sorcerers who refuse to repent [see Acts 13:6,8; Gal. 5:20; Rev. 9:21;18:23]. As the Church, our correct response is to condemn the practice of witchcraft and to preach salvation to those who would repent.

A more controversial issue is whether or not witchcraft should be made illegal by our civil government. My view is that since the civil government in our country is not a church-state ecclesiocracy, the state should not try witches. Our local community governments would be correct, however, in enforcing ordinances against private house meetings of religious groups in order to stop the undesirable effects of wiccan rituals on the surrounding community (noise, parking violations, etc.).

The city of Palm Bay was correct and acted within biblical principles and the U.S. Constitution when they enforced an ordinance against Jacque Zaleski's wiccan meetings held at her home. There was no "state persecution of witches," as they have charged. In fact, Ms. Zaleski also met for teaching seminars at a rented facility during this same time and was allowed freely to do so. The state here was not promoting a certain religion over another religion. If witches believe that their religion has enough popularity to sustain itself as a viable religious organization, then let them be subject to ordinances of the city in which they reside. Yet I doubt that it is possible for witchcraft can survive in a community together with Christians who oppose them without having special privileges granted by the state.

Witchcraft is sufficiently unpopular in our community that it won't flourish in public. It must begin in secret and then be given special legal protection in order to grow. And that is why the witches of Palm Bay are hysterical. They know that the only way they can survive is to portray themselves victims of intolerance and bigotry and then qualify for special privileges granted by the state.
Witchcraft is a problem today, because witches are gaining special rights status by claiming that they are a persecuted minority. The danger lies not in church or state persecuting witches. The real danger is when either oversteps its God-given authority, or when one tries to be the other. That is what leads to tyranny and oppression. Witches certainly can hold their beliefs and practices in private. There can be no civil law against that as long as it doesn't interfere with public sphere of life. Private faith is an issue of the conscience. The state of the human soul is something which only God himself can judge.

From another perspective, the problem of witchcraft is rooted in the deep spiritual decline of our churches. Jacque Zaleski was raised in a Christian home, but she now worships a "nature goddess." Our response as the Church should be to pray for her salvation. This is the only way that Jacque Zaleski can be changed. We cannot enforce inner righteousness from the top down. Righteousness begins with personal regeneration.

Yet we should not neglect our duty as Christians in the civil sphere to enforce outward morality - to enact laws against anything immoral, i.e., abortion, child sacrifice, public nudity, which is being promoted through witchcraft. We must do everything within biblical and Constitutional law to stop the immoral influences of witchcraft from spreading in our community
 
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Gunny

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"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name
under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Acts 4:12



A LETTER TO WITCHES

By Dr. Robert A. Morey

The following is a letter that Dr. Morey has written to teenage witches
that he thought you might like to share with others.
I see from the pentagram you wear and all your magical charms that you believe in the power of magic. Perhaps you have attended a Wiccan gathering or you have participated in some magic rituals. I don't know.

But so many questions fill my mind. Have you "drawn down the moon" yet? Have you ever felt a power come upon you? Do you worship a par- ticular goddess? Have you been initiated? Do you have a Wiccan name? Have you gone skyclading? Are you in the outer or inner circle? Have you used blood in your rituals? Have you ever called forth a familiar spirit?

The reason I am writing you is that I have studied the occult for thirty years and I have come to certain conclusions.

Now, I know that you will disagree with some of my conclusions because we have traveled different paths. But I have added the benefit of the testimonies of those who used magic in the highest levels possible such as the Golden Dawn and the O.T.O. and then have come to faith in Christ and now have renounced magic.

All I ask is that you have an open mind and give serious attention to the things I now bring up. Remember an unexamined faith is a worthless faith.

I. The fact that magic does not work.

After all the talk about the "power" that people can get from magic, I have never known a more powerless group of people.

Many of those who use magic are sick all the time. They go through multiple marriages. They have money problems. Their cars get flat tires. They get their share of flus and colds.

Even more seriously, they cannot beat their own drug or sex addiction. They are usually in bondage and totally powerless to change their life for the better.

If magic really worked, they would never be sick. They would win every horse race in town! They would own Wall Street by now! They would be able to maintain a successful marriage.

But the fact is, you waste a lot of money and time on magic and are no better off. In fact, you will end up worse off.

If magic worked, witches would be picking up the winning lottery numbers every week. But the fact is that when the "rubber meets the road" magic simply does not work.

II. Their lame duck excuses as to why they are sick or why they can't keep their marriage together or why they aren't rich, are weak and feeble.

One psychic "healer" (a relative of mine) is sick all the time. Her husband is dying of cancer! When she boasted to me of her magical powers, I confronted her with the rather obvious fact that her magic did not work for her or her ex-husband. She replied that her magic will not work for herself.

But who says that you cannot heal yourself by magic? Where is it written down? And who says that your husband or wife cannot use magic to heal you? If her magic cannot help herself or her husband, then what good is it?

I could not help but point out that she was always crying about money problems. What use is her magic if it cannot make her rich?

III. A magical world view is internally contradictory and hypocritical.

A. To say, "there are no moral absolutes" is to give an absolute.

B. To say, "Do what thou wilt, this is the whole of the law" has been used to justify everything from black magic to human sacrifice. If there are no standards, then on what grounds can they condemn child abuse, Hitler, murder, etc.? They can't.

C. To say, "everything is relative" and "there is no evil," and then to turn around and say that Christianity is "evil" is contradictory.

D. To say, "Everyone has the right to believe what they want" and then condemn Christians for what they believe is contra- dictory.

E. To say, "Do what thou wilt" and then tell Christians NOT to do what they wilt is hypocritical.

F. To say, "that it is wrong to judge/condemn others," and then to judge/condemn Christians is contradictory.

IV. A magical view of life does not correspond to reality.

A. No magic is going to make you thin if you do not stop eating. No magic will make you rich if you do not get up and go to work.

B. The claim of modern witches that they are reviving pre- Christian paganism is not true historically. The rituals and beliefs of modern day magic are of recent origin.

C. My brother in law who is in the occult told me he was going to use magic to get himself a parking space in N.Y.C. I in turn told him that I would ask Jesus to get me a space. He drove around for four hours before finding a place while I found one immediately and did not have to go around the block even once! His magic was not even good enough to find him a parking space!

D. A magical view of life is a cop out and it breeds irresponsibility . Instead of taking responsibility for their life, those who use magic always blame "bad luck" or claim that someone is using black magic against them. The truth is that YOU are responsible for the choices you make in life - not magic.

E. It attracts people with mental problems. Sad but true. I have seen this many, many times. The State Mental Hospitals are filled with people who were users of magic. It appeals to people with those kind of people.

F. They live in constant fear of the powers they draw down. Hence they need the occult protection of the circles, towers, shields, charms, etc.. What a terrible religion of fear!

G. If you depend upon trinkets such as pentagrams to protect you, you do not have any real power. To think that a stupid piece of metal or glass is going to protect you from a demon you summon is absurd.

H. The lust for blood is evil. It has led to horrible crimes. Killing animals and people for their "energy" is wicked as well as criminal.

I. Sex magic is filthy and gross beyond words and involves child abuse, bestiality, sodomy, etc. You will never have a normal satisfying sex life once you debase yourself in sex magic.

J. Magic is for losers.

The greatest magicians always end up broke, alone, and miserable. Check to see what happened to people like Crowley. They were all losers.

Whenever a true Christian challenges them, the magicians always lose.

I have challenged occultist to take their best shot and they always failed. On one occasion, a coven sent demons to kill me but I didn't even get a headache!

K. While there is a lot of hate and lust in magic, there is no love. If you leave or reveal the secrets, they will try to kill you.

I helped to move a girl from Philadelphia to Florida to escape her former occult friends. If they really loved her, why did they try to kill her? If she wanted to leave the group, why did they object to her doing what she wilt?

L. There is no forgiveness, comfort or salvation in magic. It has no Savior or God who loves and cares for you.

The occult is lonely, sad, cold and sterile.

M. The Bible says that true power behind the magical arts is satanic. Those who deny this are dupes of the devil.

These are just a few things that came to mind as I thought about what I have seen in thirty years of research in the occult.

The Lord Jesus Christ has broken the power of magic and has brought life, love and immortality to light through the Gospel. Jesus is Victor!

The occult has nothing to offer that compares with the love of Jesus. Turn to Him in repentance. Renounce your witchcraft and the works of the devil. Burn your magic books and mash your altars. Turn or burn. Repent or perish! Jesus is the answer. John 3:36.
 
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