Wicca:Good Or Bad Final Answers

[MyJhongFist]

Originally posted by gunnysgt
No worrys mate. God's Word speaks clearly of sorcery, witchcraft, divination and the occult.

 

Sure does, Gunny.  But not all people on this board believe the Bible to be God's word, as you and I do.  My personal goal is not just to support fellow Christians, but also to be a witness.    Using Bible references only, to convince someone who does not acknowledge the divinity of the Bible...

well that makes just about as much sense as using the Air Force manual to sway the opinion of a salty ex-Marine like yourself.

 

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
 

Sure does, Gunny.  But not all people on this board believe the Bible to be God's word, as you and I do.  My personal goal is not just to support fellow Christians, but also to be a witness.    Using Bible references only, to convince someone who does not acknowledge the divinity of the Bible...

well that makes just about as much sense as using the Air Force manual to sway the opinion of a salty ex-Marine like yourself.

Read 1 Corinthians 1:18--2:16. Paul makes a crescendo of statements:

1:18 "message of the cross". Paul is discussing the message of the gospel: that Jesus' perfect life leading to the cross and his sacrificial death on the cross made the complete payment for our sin, granting all who believe eternal life.

1:22 - 25 Paul foregoes attempting to convert Jews with miracles and Greeks with wisdom. Neither have the power to convert. Instead Paul opts only for the message of the cross, Christ crucified, which he identifies as the power and wisdom of God. Even though the unbelieving see this wisdom from God as foolishness, it is more powerful than any human wisdom. It is the only thing powerful enough to convert an unbeliever.

1:29-31 No man may boast that he came to faith by his own wisdom. It is because of God, through the power of his Word, that we have come to faith.

2:2 Paul's focus is exclusively on "Jesus Christ and him crucified". He did not attempt to use reason or logical argument. He did not debate false teachings.

2:5 If our conversion rested on man's wisdom, we would never have come to faith. But it rested on God's power so we were brought to faith.


2:13 Paul speaks in words taught by the Spirit (God's Word) and not words taught by human wisdom.

2:14 These words taught by the Spirit are seen as foolishness by the unbeliever and he can not understand them, for he is without the Spirit. Yet this is what Paul uses in his witnessing, because it is the power of these words that converts unbelievers.

In addition, look at verses 2:6 through
2:10. Paul tells us that the mature Christian can utilize God's wisdom. He calls it God's secret wisdom because unbelievers cannot understand it. This tutorial relies on this wisdom, not man's wisdom.

Read Romans 10:14. If no one witnesses the good news of eternal life through faith in Jesus to them, how can Mormons come to faith? Read 1 Peter 1:23. It is this "living and enduring word of God" that brings unbelievers to faith (to be reborn).

Read Romans 10:17. Faith comes from hearing the message of God's Word.

These biblical passages clearly state that it is God, through the power of his Word, that converts. God's witnesses must use God's Word.

Word Ministries

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
 

Sure does, Gunny.  But not all people on this board believe the Bible to be God's word, as you and I do.  My personal goal is not just to support fellow Christians, but also to be a witness.    Using Bible references only, to convince someone who does not acknowledge the divinity of the Bible...

well that makes just about as much sense as using the Air Force manual to sway the opinion of a salty ex-Marine like yourself.

June 21, 1998
Bethlehem Baptist Church
John Piper, Pastor



The Gospel Is the Power of God unto Salvation

(Romans 1:16)



For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.



Be Shamed, but not Ashamed

Last week I focused on the first words of Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel." I tried to make plain that there is a difference between being shamed for the gospel and being ashamed of the gospel. If you are a faithful Christian, you will be shamed for the gospel. That is, you will be the target of shaming behavior. But there is a very good reason why you do not have to be ashamed when that happens.

I compared Paul’s reason with Jesus’ reason for not being ashamed when they were shamed for the gospel. Hebrews 12:2 says, "For the joy set before Him [Jesus] endured the cross, despising the shame." The shaming behavior against Jesus was as ugly and cruel and demeaning as it gets. But instead of letting the shame eat him up, or make him ashamed, or turn him into someone as weak and ugly as his shamers, he fixed his heart on the joy set before him. In other words, the assured triumph of his death and resurrection to save sinners and vindicate his righteousness and bring him home to God kept him from being ashamed or disobedient. When he was tempted to feel ashamed, he focused his mind on the joy set before him. He endured short-term pain because of long-term gain.

And Paul was like that. He said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel," – I am not ashamed of the message and the reality of Christ crucified for sinners and raised with power and saving all who trust in him. Why not? Because "[the gospel] is the power of God for [unto] salvation to everyone who believes." This is the same way that Jesus overcame feelings of shame when he was shamed for the gospel. Jesus looked to the joyful triumph of his cross and resurrection; Paul looked to the joyful triumph of the gospel in eternal salvation.

We do not avoid feelings of shame by altering the gospel to make it popular and inoffensive (see I Corinthians 1:18). We avoid feelings of shame by remembering that the gospel is going to be vindicated in the end. We remind ourselves that the gospel alone brings forgiven sinners to final, everlasting joy. Nothing in the world can do this except the gospel of Jesus Christ. Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam – they do not have a Savior who can solve the problem of separation from a holy God through sin, and offer sinners hope by grace and not works. Only one message saves sinners and brings them safely into the presence of God – the gospel of Jesus Christ. It alone is the power of God unto salvation.


Therefore, Paul would say – Jesus himself would say – suffer, yes. Be misunderstood, yes. Be shamed, yes. But do not be ashamed. Because the message of God’s saving work in Christ is the only final triumphant message in the world. Short-term pain. Long-term gain. For the joy set before you, for the salvation that only the gospel can gain, take up your cross, follow Jesus and despise the shame.


The Gospel Is the Power of God unto Salvation

Now today I want to dwell on the words, "for it [the gospel] is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." And I will take up only one question: What is this salvation that the gospel so powerfully brings about? We will see in answering this how our faith relates to the gospel in bringing about our salvation.

There are other crucial questions, especially the question of how the gospel becomes the power to save. But that is the point of verse 17, which we will plan to take up on August 9. "The gospel . . . is the power of God unto salvation . . . for [= because] in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" – that’s why the gospel is the power of God to salvation.




So the question today is: What is this salvation that the gospel so powerfully brings about? "The gospel is the power of God for [unto] salvation." Does this mean, "The gospel is the power of God to win converts"? Now I do think that is true, but I don’t think that is what this statement means.




The reason I think it is true that the gospel converts people – brings them to faith and repentance – is because Romans 10:17 says, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." And 1 Peter 1:23-25 says, "You have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. . . . And this is the word which was preached to you." So it is true that we are born of God and converted by means of hearing the powerful word of God, the gospel.
And it’s true that this conversion is called "salvation" in the New Testament. For example, Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." So conversion to Christ by faith is called "being saved." If you are a believer in Christ this morning, you "have been saved." The book of Romans should be precious beyond words to you, because, like no other book in the Bible, it unfolds for you what has already happened in God’s saving you – your election, your predestination, your calling, your justification, your sanctification, and the obedience of faith. These are all part of the salvation that is already true of you through faith.



The Final Triumph of the Gospel

But what is the salvation that Paul has in mind in Romans 1:16 when he says, "For [the gospel] is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes"? I think he has in mind not primarily the first event of conversion, but primarily the final triumph of the gospel in bringing believers to eternal safety and joy in the presence of a holy and glorious God. There are four reasons why I think this is what he means. Looking at these reasons is the best way to unpack the meaning of the verse.

1. The power of the gospel is what frees us from being ashamed of the gospel

The first reason is that the power of the gospel to bring about salvation is what frees us from being ashamed of the gospel. "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation." But if this meant only that the gospel has the power to make converts, why would that solve the shame problem? Lots of religions make converts. Lots of different religious and secular movements win people over to their faith. When Paul said that the gospel has such a powerful effect that you don’t have to be ashamed of it, did he simply mean that it does what other religions do: win converts? I don’t think so.

Jesus triumphed over shame by looking at the future joy that was set before him as he died. I think this is what Paul, as well, has in mind in Romans 1:16. You don’t have to be ashamed of the gospel because it doesn’t just make converts; it saves those converts utterly. It brings them to final safety and ever-increasing joy in the presence of a glorious and holy God forever and ever. This is what makes us bold with the gospel – not that it can make converts; any religion can do that – but that it is the only truth in the world that can really save people forever and bring them to everlasting joy with God.

2. "Salvation" is future-oriented elsewhere in Paul and the New Testament

The second reason I think "salvation" in verse 16 refers to the final triumph of the gospel in bringing believers to eternal safety and joy in the presence of a holy and glorious God, is that the phrase "for salvation" or "unto salvation" has this future-oriented meaning elsewhere in Paul and other New Testament writers.

For example, in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Paul says, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." Now here, salvation is not just what happens at conversion, which leads to sanctification, but salvation is what comes later "through sanctification," and is in the future. In other words, salvation is the future triumph that brings the saint into God’s presence with everlasting joy.

Or again, in 2 Corinthians 7:10, Paul speaks to Christians who are already converted and saved, but need fresh repentance for their sins: "The sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, unto salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death." Here again "unto salvation" refers not to conversion, but to the final, future state of safety and joy in the presence of God. (See also 2 Timothy 3:15.)

Similarly, Hebrews 9:28 says, "Christ . . . will appear a second time for salvation . . . to those who eagerly await Him." This final, complete salvation happens at the Second Coming. 1 Peter 1:5 says, "[Believers] are protected by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." This salvation is "ready to be revealed in the last time." It is not conversion. It is the last great work of God to rescue us and bring us to safety and joy in his presence forever.

In Romans 5:9-10, Paul talks about this future salvation as rescue from the final wrath of God: "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood [that’s the present reality of salvation!], we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son [here again is the present reality of salvation!], much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." In other words, the full experience of salvation, in Paul’s thinking, is still future. Romans 13:11: "Salvation is nearer to us than when we believed."

So when Paul says in Romans 1:16 that "[the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation," I take him to mean that the gospel is the only message in the world that powerfully can bring a person not just to conversion, but to everlasting safety and joy in the presence of a holy and glorious God.




cont'd

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
 

Sure does, Gunny.  But not all people on this board believe the Bible to be God's word, as you and I do.  My personal goal is not just to support fellow Christians, but also to be a witness.    Using Bible references only, to convince someone who does not acknowledge the divinity of the Bible...

well that makes just about as much sense as using the Air Force manual to sway the opinion of a salty ex-Marine like yourself.

Cont'd

June 21, 1998
Bethlehem Baptist Church
John Piper, Pastor



The Gospel Is the Power of God unto Salvation




3. Ongoing belief is the condition for this salvation

The third reason I think "salvation" in Romans 1:16 is the final triumph of the gospel in bringing believers to eternal safety and joy in the presence of a holy and glorious God is that ongoing belief is the condition for this salvation. Notice that verse 16 does not say, "The gospel . . . is the power of God to bring about faith and salvation." It says, "The gospel is the power of God for [unto] salvation to everyone who is believing [present tense in Greek, signifying continuous action]." In other words, Paul’s point here is not that the power of the gospel creates faith, but that, for those who have faith, the gospel brings about salvation. So the point is not that the gospel is the power for conversion to faith; the point is that the gospel is the power to bring about future salvation through a life of faith.

The tense of the verb "believe" here is crucial. It signifies ongoing action, not just the first act of faith when you were converted: "The gospel . . . is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who is believing" – who goes on believing. It’s the same as 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 where Paul says, "I preached to you [the gospel], which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are being saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." Faith that does not persevere is a vain and empty faith – what James calls "dead faith" (James 2:17, 26).




So the point of Romans 1:16 is that you don’t have to be ashamed of the gospel, because it is the only truth in the world which, if you go on banking on it day after day, will triumph over every obstacle and bring you to eternal safety and joy in the presence of a holy and glorious God.

4. Paul says the gospel is for believers, not just unbelievers

The last reason I think this is what "salvation" means in verse 16 is that the verse is given as the reason Paul wants to preach the gospel to believers (not just unbelievers). We’ve seen this, but look again. In verse 15 Paul says, "I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome." He is eager to preach the gospel to "you" – you believers – not just unbelievers. Then he gives the reason: "because I am not ashamed of it, because it is the power of God unto salvation to all such believers."

So I conclude that the reason Paul is not ashamed of the gospel is that it is the only truth in all the world that will not let you down when you give your life to it in faith. It will bring you all the way through temptation and persecution and death and judgment into eternal safety and ever-increasing joy in the presence of a holy and glorious God. All the other "gospels" in the world that win so many converts will fail you in the end. Only one saves from the final wrath of God and leads to fullness of joy in his presence and pleasures at his right hand forever. Therefore, there is no need to be ashamed of it, no matter what others say or do. And O how eager we should be to speak this gospel to believer and unbeliever alike.



Do You Feed on the Gospel Day by Day?

I close with one huge implication of what I have said. Do you feed your faith day by day with the promises of this triumphant gospel? Do you, as a believer, go to the gospel day by day and savor its power in verses like Romans 8:32, "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?" The gospel is the good news that God gave us his Son, so as to obtain for us everything that would be good for us. Therefore the gospel is the power that gives us victory over temptation to despair and to pride and to greed and to lust. The gospel alone can triumph over every obstacle and bring us to eternal joy. Whatever it costs, stand in it, hold it fast, believe on it, feed on it, savor it, count it more precious than silver or gold. The gospel will save you. And it alone.

 

[lithium.]

Am I wrong or missing something but gunnysgt are you not even answering or replying to poeple. You are just copying and pasteing stuff.

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by Marcel
Did anyone check out that, t.m.h.o., chicken(beep) weazeling out manouver, getting all 'oh poor misunderstood me' in the "d.m.z." of these boards?

LUKE 23:34
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

 

[Marcel]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

 

[Lacmeh]

Good old gunysgt at his best. Not replying not discussing just wallowing on with cut and paste. I womnder, if that´s the style he uses when discussing things at home.
Cut and paste from other sites is a wonderful expression of one´s opinion...

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by Lacmeh
Good old gunysgt at his best. Not replying not discussing just wallowing on with cut and paste. I womnder, if that?s the style he uses when discussing things at home.
Cut and paste from other sites is a wonderful expression of one?s opinion...

It is my sincere desire and prayer that you come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior for it is the Father's desire that no one would perish.

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by Marcel
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

I pray that you may have Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Marcel


http://www.christianforums.com/threads/25614.html

...poor in spirit indeed.

I have to wonder about the ethics of posting a series of quotes from one forum to another forum where the posters have no ability to comment on the use of their words. Perhaps a moderator or an admin would care to comment on this?

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by Havoc
I have to wonder about the ethics of posting a series of quotes from one forum to another forum where the posters have no ability to comment on the use of their words. Perhaps a moderator or an admin would care to comment on this?

It is my prayer that the Father might draw you to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ for He died for the sins of the world.

 

[Havoc]

Thanks for being so irrelevant in replying to my concerns over you using my words on another forum Gunny.

In regards to your other posts in reply to whether or not I find scripture offensive, could you explain to me how you think a bunch of people who don't know me, who have never met me, could know what offends me better than I do? Those articles you posted are simple propaganda.

Paul was a master of propaganda. He knew just how to make people tow the line. One of the best ways is with a persecution complex. "If people disagree with you then you must be doing the right thing." Now just make that the official word of God and... BINGO, instant justification for being the south end of a north bound horse.

 

[Gunny]

JOHN 12:35
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

JOHN 12:36
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Havoc, it is my prayer ,and I hope it is the prayer of fellow Christians that the Father draws you out of the world of Goddess worship and witchcraft into the Light, Jesus Christ, the Alpha and Omega.

 

[ocean]

Gunnysgt,

You are breaking the rules of this forum

Rule #3: No spamming

You may not post the same thing over and over.

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by gunnysgt
JOHN 12:35
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

JOHN 12:36
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Havoc, it is my prayer ,and I hope it is the prayer of fellow Christians that the Father draws you out of the world of Goddess worship and witchcraft into the Light, Jesus Christ, the Alpha and Omega.

I appreciate the sentiment Gunny but the world of God and Goddess worship (I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge them both) is exactly where I am supposed to be. Secure in the Love and Strength of my Creators and with the confidence of my eternity.

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by ocean
Gunnysgt,

You are breaking the rules of this forum

Rule #3: No spamming

You may not post the same thing over and over.

IMO... He is not breaking the rules. He is using scripture as an argument. Something Jesus did quite often.

However, Gunny, it would be best if you could tie this all together since other users will lose interest unless you more aptly show the relevance of your posts.

Zach

 

[Gunny]

It is my contention that I am not repeating the same thing over and over.

This could be said for countless threads where there is in excess of 100-300 posts stating the same repetive arguments/statements over and over.

Utilization of God's Word at a Christian Website should not be deemed spamming by those that deny, reject or oppose it.

I realize that those that deny ,reject and oppose Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior would prefer to view no scripture whatsoever.

If God's Word and posts concerning God's Word are restricted and/or banned as Christians we must then conclude that God's Word does not have the power unto salvation as God's precious Word states.

 

[Earth's Inheritor]

Gunny, I don't deny, reject, or oppose God's word. I'm sure we agree on a lot of issues. But haven't you ever heard the saying "you'll catch more flies with vinegar than with honey"?

If you exemplify kindness and an understanding heart, people will listen to you and respect your opinions. But if you use people's words against them and behave cruelly, no one will want to embrace your doctrine. I think that this was something Jesus knew very well.

Atheists aren't our enemies, you know. I'm sure everyone here--Christian and non--is a perfectly nice person. Message boards have a way of making people seem bitter and cruel, don't you think?

 

[Lacmeh]

Gunnysgt, I am not offended, if someone posts scripture from Bible, Koran or any other Holy Book. I am offended by peopel refusing to discuss what they post and you clearly stated, that you won´t discuss...