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Wow. That speaks volumes about your views of God's omnipotence. I cannot believe you think God is unable to create people and ensure they turn out exactly as He planned. Your reason for believing this is that you feel it's illogical? Wow.seebs said:If He creates people, some of them will turn out badly. The only way to avoid this is not to create people. He can't logically only create the ones that turn out well.
So how you turn out is by chance?Basically, there are a lot of possible people in the world, but a person exactly like me except that he does one thing differently isn't one of them. Small changes in the person created may be huge changes in life, and of course, we interact with each other.
You determine your own fate? I see.:oI believe He creates us free, and that we are the ones who end up determining our own fates, within the framework He created. Any other answer strikes me as a sort of sadistic puppet show.
If you have the ability to respond or ignore then that means that God is ambivalent as to what you do. If it was His desire, as an omnipotent God, for you to be saved then He wouldn't leave the decision up to a sinful creation. He would ensure it comes to pass. I think it very telling that you'd rather the decision be yours, even if that means you go to hell, than that God loves you so much He ensures you are with Him always.Shelb5 said:For the last time we do not seek God but He seeks us and calls out to us and we have the ability to respond or to ignore.
He gave you a way. Wow. That is so gracious of Him. He gave you a way. Why did you take that way? Were you just so smart you saw your need and the merit in being with God?He wanted us to be with Him freely of our own accord, he gave us a test and man failed but he did not abandon man, he promised him a savior. The savoir saves us from our saying no through willful sin by way of repenting. He gave us a way back to Him when frail humans fail but the human, jut as Adam did, has the choice.
Unless you're a universalist you don't believe God's purpose will ever be realized either so I don't know why you're arguing with this. You say God's purpose in creating mankind, ALL OF THEM, was for them to be with Him. I doubt you think that ALL mankind will be with Him. Do you?That is what you say, what you think that means.
I have no clue what you're saying here.What I dont think is saying yes to God is what St. Paul had in mind.
There's a big difference between spelling coherent with an "a" instead of an "e" and one big run-on sentence. I'm not asking you to be an English major. I'm just saying that good grammer helps get your point across.It was intended to point out to you that you need to lighten up and whether you corrected it or not, you still spelled it wrong and you spelled more than just that one wrong, but so what? I dont care.
My point was, by the time you "came back" to respond I had already corrected it, 35 minutes before you posted. So, you saw a mispelling and kept that in your mind for 35 minutes so you could point something out that had been corrected long before you ever pointed it out. As I said, you should feel silly.I dont respond to you right away because I am either busy doing something else or I need to back away from your reply so I can make sure I respond and not react.
As I mentioned before, I believe the Lord reveals the weaknesses of others to our eyes so that we can recognize our OWN proclivity to commit the SAME sins. Take that as you will.You require more patience than I have I am afraid to say.
I wasn't being critical. I was asking you to make sure your posts are readable before you post them. Type it up and go back and slowly read it. How fun would it be for you to read "Michelle the doctrines espoused by John Calvin weren't actually called that while he was alive he spent a lot of time studying the Word is helpful to our growth and can help us to learn to be godly to others may have trouble following God's Law is difficult..." Do you get the picture??? This is what you're posts are like. I'm sure you have worthwhile things to add, though I disagree with them, but your point is often very hard to dicipher.I am trying to point out to you that we all make mistakes, stop being so critical, that is all I am asking you.
This time I was able to dicipher it. Never mind Michelle.You apparently where able to read my run on sentence because you did structure it properly, so that tells me you can read, your just being critical and I must ask, why?
Well, I don't believe I'm the only one who feels that way, but I get you're point. You disagree.I believe man has free will and God made it that way. It is only you who attribute to Him failure if he determines this; it is not the realty of the situation.
Is prevenient grace always successful in bringing someone to Christ?I am not saying that prevenient grace is the very first grace of all but it is the grace that comes before conversion.
Write this down somewhere because you seem to forget it every time you post:It shows us that we do not seek Him because of our sin but He seeks us and He calls us and we respond.
What does it mean to you to be "chosen by Jesus?"Jesus said the very same thing when he said You have not chosen me but I have chosen you.
LOL!!!JesusServant said:For two people that do not want to debate with one another, you guys sure are doing a fine job debating.
Are you saying that all mankind are vessels prepared for destruction?McCravey said:We are the vessels for destruction.
Reformationist said:If you have the ability to respond or ignore then that means that God is ambivalent as to what you do. If it was His desire, as an omnipotent God, for you to be saved then He wouldn't leave the decision up to a sinful creation. He would ensure it comes to pass. I think it very telling that you'd rather the decision be yours, even if that means you go to hell, than that God loves you so much He ensures you are with Him always.
He gave you a way. Wow. That is so gracious of Him. He gave you a way. Why did you take that way? Were you just so smart you saw your need and the merit in being with God?
Unless you're a universalist you don't believe God's purpose will ever be realized either so I don't know why you're arguing with this. You say God's purpose in creating mankind, ALL OF THEM, was for them to be with Him. I doubt you think that ALL mankind will be with Him. Do you?
Prevenient grace is always successful in calling someone to Christ.Is prevenient grace always successful in bringing someone to Christ?
Write this down somewhere because you seem to forget it every time you post:
I believe that man responds.
What I'm curious about is why you respond by submitting to the grace of God while someone else rejects that same grace.
What does it mean to you to be "chosen by Jesus?"
Wow. That speaks volumes about your views of God's omnipotence. I cannot believe you think God is unable to create people and ensure they turn out exactly as He planned. Your reason for believing this is that you feel it's illogical? Wow.
JesusServant said:I completely agree seebs. Except for one thing. When we come to the 'end of ourselves' as I've heard it put. When a person has tasted of most of this world and tried to find happiness in all *things* or maybe in work or play or whatever this world has to offer. When they have come to the end of their rope and realize they are missing the simple joys in life and the fruits this life has to offer that are most important yet overlooked by so many (love, trust, selflessness, etc.) At that point people decide to *freely* give their life over to God. It is their choice to give up their choice. And no matter how the road may turn they trust that it is God's sovereign will. Just read about Joseph. God told him He would rule over many and then he found himself in a pit, in jail, etc. Yet, what God said held true and he was blessed beyond his wildest dreams. Now, many of us could care less about ruling anyone or anything. We just want to lead simple, happy, loving, giving lives, but we cannot do that without God's direction. It is not within us without Him in us. I know you know all of this, but it begs the question, are you ever going to be willing to be His puppet? (as you put it)
Jesus was.
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