Why?

[Wrigley]

Anti-Mormon according to the dictionary defintion refers to those who oppose Mormons as persons, not those who oppose Mormonism. Remember, using the term in the same manner as you use anti-Mormon, those who disagree with Christianity could be called anti-Christs.

I think it would be best to avoid use of this term as it focuses on the person both ways, rather than focusing on the doctrine, which should be the topic of the discussion....'nuff said.

Which dictionary?

 

[Toms777]

Which dictionary?

Mormon An ancient prophet believed to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Mormonism The doctrine, system, and practices of the Mormons. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

So, the term anti-Mormon, from my perspective would mean someone who is opposed to the character of "Mormon" in the Book of Mormon or opposed to people who are members of the Mormon church. I don't know anyone who is "anti-" either of these.

I do know Christian apologists who are opposed to Mormonism (the doctrine, system and practices of the Mormon church), and as such I could see their views referred to as anti-Mormonism, but that is quite different because it focuses on the belief system not the person.

Have these terms been mis-used and mis-applied frequently when the intent was actually to refer to a position of anti-Mormonism?

My reason for asking is that I do not like terms which focus on the person.

When the term anti-Mormon is used, it either means that the person is labelled who hold that view, or the person is truly opposed to the person who is a Mormon.

This is quite different than using the term "anti-Mormonism" which does not refer to the person who is a Mormon, nor the apologist who opposes Mormonism. It focuses entirely on the doctrine.

If terms such as this are to be used, it is important that they be used properly and not used in a manner which might unfairly focus on the person, be it the Mormon or the apologist. If there are cases where a person truly is anti-Mormon, then we need to be careful to document that and to ensure that we are not unfairly targeting the person rather than the doctrine or views.

 

[Wrigley]

Mormon An ancient prophet believed to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Mormonism The doctrine, system, and practices of the Mormons. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

So, the term anti-Mormon, from my perspective would mean someone who is opposed to the character of "Mormon" in the Book of Mormon or opposed to people who are members of the Mormon church. I don't know anyone who is "anti-" either of these.

I do know Christian apologists who are opposed to Mormonism (the doctrine, system and practices of the Mormon church), and as such I could see their views referred to as anti-Mormonism, but that is quite different because it focuses on the belief system not the person.

Have these terms been mis-used and mis-applied frequently when the intent was actually to refer to a position of anti-Mormonism?

My reason for asking is that I do not like terms which focus on the person.

When the term anti-Mormon is used, it either means that the person is labelled who hold that view, or the person is truly opposed to the person who is a Mormon.

This is quite different than using the term "anti-Mormonism" which does not refer to the person who is a Mormon, nor the apologist who opposes Mormonism. It focuses entirely on the doctrine.

If terms such as this are to be used, it is important that they be used properly and not used in a manner which might unfairly focus on the person, be it the Mormon or the apologist. If there are cases where a person truly is anti-Mormon, then we need to be careful to document that and to ensure that we are not unfairly targeting the person rather than the doctrine or views.

So its not a dictionary definition then is it?

 

[twhite982]

Mormon An ancient prophet believed to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Mormonism The doctrine, system, and practices of the Mormons. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

So, the term anti-Mormon, from my perspective would mean someone who is opposed to the character of "Mormon" in the Book of Mormon or opposed to people who are members of the Mormon church. I don't know anyone who is "anti-" either of these.

I do know Christian apologists who are opposed to Mormonism (the doctrine, system and practices of the Mormon church), and as such I could see their views referred to as anti-Mormonism, but that is quite different because it focuses on the belief system not the person.

Have these terms been mis-used and mis-applied frequently when the intent was actually to refer to a position of anti-Mormonism?

My reason for asking is that I do not like terms which focus on the person.

When the term anti-Mormon is used, it either means that the person is labelled who hold that view, or the person is truly opposed to the person who is a Mormon.

This is quite different than using the term "anti-Mormonism" which does not refer to the person who is a Mormon, nor the apologist who opposes Mormonism. It focuses entirely on the doctrine.

If terms such as this are to be used, it is important that they be used properly and not used in a manner which might unfairly focus on the person, be it the Mormon or the apologist. If there are cases where a person truly is anti-Mormon, then we need to be careful to document that and to ensure that we are not unfairly targeting the person rather than the doctrine or views.

Just to clarify something for you, the term "Mormon", is just a slang term. We don't believe in mormonism = the belief of Mormon. The term Mormon is only accepted in that the LDS church members are so often referred to as mormons that we use it to establish common ground, but only in that sense. I find the term a little annoying mysef, but I do use it occasionally as I stated before to establish common ground.

But really we are both arguing irrelevant points because I know which religion I belong to and you know what the term "anti-mormon" is referring to or as someone suggested to be more PC, "mormon critic".

TW

 

[Wrigley]

Just to clarify something for you, the term "Mormon", is just a slang term. We don't believe in mormonism = the belief of Mormon. The term Mormon is only accepted in that the LDS church members are so often referred to as mormons that we use it to establish common ground, but only in that sense. I find the term a little annoying mysef, but I do use it occasionally as I stated before to establish common ground.

But really we are both arguing irrelevant points because I know which religion I belong to and you know what the term "anti-mormon" is referring to or as someone suggested to be more PC, "mormon critic".

TW

Do you have the same issue with the choir's name?

 

[twhite982]

Do you have the same issue with the choir's name?

Read my post again and you'll see something about establishing common ground.

TW

 

[Wrigley]

Read my post again and you'll see something about establishing common ground.

TW

Read my question again. You say that you find the name annoying. Do you find the choir's name annoying too?

 

[Toms777]

Just to clarify something for you, the term "Mormon", is just a slang term. We don't believe in mormonism = the belief of Mormon. The term Mormon is only accepted in that the LDS church members are so often referred to as mormons that we use it to establish common ground, but only in that sense. I find the term a little annoying mysef, but I do use it occasionally as I stated before to establish common ground.

But really we are both arguing irrelevant points because I know which religion I belong to and you know what the term "anti-mormon" is referring to or as someone suggested to be more PC, "mormon critic".

TW

The term Mormon is a common terms. I was at the local Mormon church just last night hearing the Bishop speak and he referred to them as "Mormons". So whether it is LDS or Mormon is a moot point.

the term anti-mormon on the other hand has never been anything more than a derogatory term which specifically targets a person with whom you disagree, not addressing a point of disagreement.

mormon critic is ambiguous. It could mean a person who is Mormon and who acts as a critic also.

My question is blunt - why do you feel the need to label the people with whom you disagree? Why not just deal with the topic?

 

[ah_muse]

A lot of people on this board seem to attack the LDS (mormon) church.
Why?

Who is attacking who?
Joseph Smith claimed he had seen both God the Father of Satan and Jesus Christ the brother of Satan. When he asked "these personages" which church he should join, he was told to join none of them, "for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).


So it's no surprise to see what spirit inspires Mormons to attack Christians, Christianity, and the Bible . . . see the following examples from Mormon Leaders:

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense ...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing ...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

Daniel H. Wells (Mormon Apostle) -- "The whole system of Christianity is a failure so far as stemming the tide of wickedness and corruption is concerned, or turning men from their evil ways to living lives of righteousness before God our Heavenly Father....the so-called system of Christianity is not only an error and a snare, but is a monstrous iniquity fastened upon the children of men throughout the earth. No wonder that people become infidel.(Journal of Discourses 24:321-322).

Orson Pratt (Mormon Apostle) -- "This class of men, calling themselves Christian, ... is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations" (Journal of Discourses 14:346).

Heber C. Kimball (First Counselor to Brigham Young) -- "Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth ..." (Journal of Discourses 5:89).

Parley P. Pratt (Mormon Apostle) -- "The false and corrupt institutions, and still more corrupt practices of `Christendom,' have had a downward tendency in the generations of man for many centuries ...The overthrow of those ancient degenerate races is a type of that which now awaits the nations call `Christian,' or in other words, `the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters" (Key to the Science of Theology, 1938 ed., pg.106).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle) -- "What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power? ...It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel ...It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts" (Millennial Messiah, pp.54-55).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle) --"As with other doctrines and ordinances, apostate substitutes of the real thing are found both among pagans and supposed Christians" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.72).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle) --""And virtually all the millions of apostate christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.269).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle) --"""The gods of Christendom, for instance, are gods who were created by men in the creeds of an apostate people. There is little profit or peace in serving them, and certainly there is no salvation available through them" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg.545).

 

[twhite982]

Who is attacking who?
Joseph Smith claimed he had seen both God the Father of Satan and Jesus Christ the brother of Satan. When he asked "these personages" which church he should join, he was told to join none of them, "for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).


So it's no surprise to see what spirit inspires Mormons to attack Christians, Christianity, and the Bible . . . see the following examples from Mormon Leaders:

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense ...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing ...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

Daniel H. Wells (Mormon Apostle) -- "The whole system of Christianity is a failure so far as stemming the tide of wickedness and corruption is concerned, or turning men from their evil ways to living lives of righteousness before God our Heavenly Father....the so-called system of Christianity is not only an error and a snare, but is a monstrous iniquity fastened upon the children of men throughout the earth. No wonder that people become infidel.(Journal of Discourses 24:321-322).

Orson Pratt (Mormon Apostle) -- "This class of men, calling themselves Christian, ... is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations" (Journal of Discourses 14:346).

Heber C. Kimball (First Counselor to Brigham Young) -- "Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth ..." (Journal of Discourses 5:89).

Parley P. Pratt (Mormon Apostle) -- "The false and corrupt institutions, and still more corrupt practices of `Christendom,' have had a downward tendency in the generations of man for many centuries ...The overthrow of those ancient degenerate races is a type of that which now awaits the nations call `Christian,' or in other words, `the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters" (Key to the Science of Theology, 1938 ed., pg.106).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle) -- "What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power? ...It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel ...It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts" (Millennial Messiah, pp.54-55).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle) --"As with other doctrines and ordinances, apostate substitutes of the real thing are found both among pagans and supposed Christians" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.72).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle) --""And virtually all the millions of apostate christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.269).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle) --"""The gods of Christendom, for instance, are gods who were created by men in the creeds of an apostate people. There is little profit or peace in serving them, and certainly there is no salvation available through them" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg.545).

Bruce R. Mckonkie died well over 20 years ago. He was one of the most outspoken apostles of the church and had an opinion on almost everything. He got into "trouble" for some of his comments.

Some on this board are very quick to drudge up the past to justify the "critisizing" of today and often overlook the glowing compliments those past leaders have to say about Christianity in general.

TW

 

[Toms777]

Bruce R. Mckonkie died well over 20 years ago. He was one of the most outspoken apostles of the church and had an opinion on almost everything. He got into "trouble" for some of his comments.

Some on this board are very quick to drudge up the past to justify the "critisizing" of today and often overlook the glowing compliments those past leaders have to say about Christianity in general.

TW

1) Was he ever censured for his comemnts? If not, then clearly the comments were accepted within the realm of orthodoxy. If so, then please show the evidence.

2) If his comments were a problem, why were they published in the Journal of Discourses?

3) I note that you did not object to any of the other quotes.

 

[ah_muse]

Mormons may claim to be Christian, but accept as Scripture writings outside of the Bible, teach doctrines that contradict the Bible, and hold to beliefs completely foreign to the teachings of Jesus and His apostles.

The Bible specifically warns of false prophets who will teach "another gospel" centered around "another Jesus," and witnessed to by "another spirit" (2 Corinthians 11:4,13-15; Galatians 1:6-9).

If one claimed to be a Mormon but denied all the basic tenets of Mormonism — that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is true and divinely inspired, that god was once a man who progressed to godhood through keeping the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Church, and that the Mormon Church was divinely established — the Mormon Church would reject such a person’s claim to being a Latter-day Saint. One cannot fairly call oneself a Mormon if one does not believe the fundamental doctrines taught by the Mormon Church.

Since the Mormon Church does not hold to even the basic biblical truths believed by the greater Christian community down through the ages, how can Christians reasonably be expected to accept Mormonism as authentic Christianity?

If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as a part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christians at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly.

 

[Toms777]

Mormons may claim to be Christian, but accept as Scripture writings outside of the Bible, teach doctrines that contradict the Bible, and hold to beliefs completely foreign to the teachings of Jesus and His apostles.

The Bible specifically warns of false prophets who will teach "another gospel" centered around "another Jesus," and witnessed to by "another spirit" (2 Corinthians 11:4,13-15; Galatians 1:6-9).

If one claimed to be a Mormon but denied all the basic tenets of Mormonism — that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is true and divinely inspired, that god was once a man who progressed to godhood through keeping the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Church, and that the Mormon Church was divinely established — the Mormon Church would reject such a person’s claim to being a Latter-day Saint. One cannot fairly call oneself a Mormon if one does not believe the fundamental doctrines taught by the Mormon Church.

Since the Mormon Church does not hold to even the basic biblical truths believed by the greater Christian community down through the ages, how can Christians reasonably be expected to accept Mormonism as authentic Christianity?

If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as a part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christians at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly.

I was at the Mormon church last night speaking to a Mormon Missionary who advised me that God can command Christians to to things which violate His commandments, including lying. This started from a discussion on the changing doctrines on polygamy.

I would be very interested if any Mormon on here can show me where scripture says that God will give commandments to Christians to violate His commandments.

 

[twhite982]

1) Was he ever censured for his comemnts? If not, then clearly the comments were accepted within the realm of orthodoxy. If so, then please show the evidence.

2) If his comments were a problem, why were they published in the Journal of Discourses?

3) I note that you did not object to any of the other quotes.

I don't see a point in addressing each and every case. To be blunt I have better things to do with my time.

I only pointed this out because it just seems to me like a cop-out to use this as a reason of critisism.

TW

 

[twhite982]

I was at the Mormon church last night speaking to a Mormon Missionary who advised me that God can command Christians to to things which violate His commandments, including lying. This started from a discussion on the changing doctrines on polygamy.

I would be very interested if any Mormon on here can show me where scripture says that God will give commandments to Christians to violate His commandments.

You're spending alot of time at the LDS church.

May I ask what for?

As far as lying and God condoning it an example does come to mind. You'll have to find the reference because this is off the top of my head. The Israelite spies who were hid at the widow's (I think she was a widow) house. When the men of that country came looking for her she lied and said they were not there. Obviously the Lord blessed her for this and she was the only house that was not destroyed during the ensuing battle.

TW

 

[Toms777]

So its not a dictionary definition then is it?

Methinks you should read it again. the first two paragraphs are quotes from Dictionaries. I did not quote the prefix "anti-" from the dictionary, because I thought it to be obvious, but will do so gladly if you wish.

 

[Toms777]

You're spending alot of time at the LDS church.

May I ask what for?

As far as lying and God condoning it an example does come to mind. You'll have to find the reference because this is off the top of my head. The Israelite spies who were hid at the widow's (I think she was a widow) house. When the men of that country came looking for her she lied and said they were not there. Obviously the Lord blessed her for this and she was the only house that was not destroyed during the ensuing battle.

TW

Do you object to Christians attending services at a Mormon church?

Please quote the verse where you believe that God condoned lying in that example.

 

[Toms777]

I don't see a point in addressing each and every case. To be blunt I have better things to do with my time.

I only pointed this out because it just seems to me like a cop-out to use this as a reason of critisism.

TW

If this man was a top leader in the church, he did not get there because they disagreed with his doctrine, and publishing his doctrine in Journal of Discourses is not exactly an indication that they disagreed either.


So, he was highly endorsed by the Mormon church and to be the best of my knowledge (it appears to be the case with you also), he was never censured by the church for his doctrine, therefore I think that his statements are indeed valid to be quoted as a reflection of doctrines considered to be or accepted as orthodox within the Mormon church.