Why.

[E.C.]

Well, JESUS never said it would be easy being a Christian.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 24:8 "All yet these beginning of trevails.
9 "Then they shall be delivering ye into tribulation and they shall be killing ye, and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations thru the Name of Me.

Philippians 1:29.

 

[christianmomof3]

Now consider one more aspect of it.

This Church (The Orthodox Church) is not a centralized entity.

They are all over the planet. All of them confirming each other story.

We are not force fed our beliefs. They do not come from a single source like the Vatican. They come from within us, and are confirmed by the entire Church body as being what has always been believed by all Christians everyhwere (see St. Vincent canon.)

I offer it again. It is a lack of faith in the fact that the truth has been protected by The Church.

If she (The Church of Antioch) is untrustable, then the gates of Hell have prevailed against her.

So which is it. Does she lie. Or does she maintain the unsubjective truth?

There is no middle ground.

Forgive me...

There are many great truths within the Orthodox Church. I have read On the Incarnation and I found it to be very scriptural, accurate and to have a vision of Christ and the Body that most Christians do not see or understand.
However, there are also many things within the Orthodox practices and beliefs that I cannot accept.
I do not see that as a lack of faith in God, because the things that I cannot accept are those that are not scriptural.
If you see that as meaning that I think your church is wrong, then so be it.
But, I do recognize the great truths that the Orthodox church holds. I also recognize that the Roman Catholic Church holds great truths.
However, both have added to the word of God things that the Christ in me cannot accept.
I believe that there are many saints within the Orthodox and RCC churches who are my brothers and sisters in Christ. But I do not think that either organization is infallible. And I cannot accept the Tradition and stories of them as necessarily true either.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There are many great truths within the Orthodox Church. I have read On the Incarnation and I found it to be very scriptural, accurate and to have a vision of Christ and the Body that most Christians do not see or understand.
However, there are also many things within the Orthodox practices and beliefs that I cannot accept.
I do not see that as a lack of faith in God, because the things that I cannot accept are those that are not scriptural.
If you see that as meaning that I think your church is wrong, then so be it.
But, I do recognize the great truths that the Orthodox church holds. I also recognize that the Roman Catholic Church holds great truths.
However, both have added to the word of God things that the Christ in me cannot accept.
I believe that there are many saints within the Orthodox and RCC churches who are my brothers and sisters in Christ. But I do not think that either organization is infallible. And I cannot accept the Tradition and stories of them as necessarily true either.

And therefore, with that lack of faith in The Church in tow... we are forced to change the definition of "Church" to something much more obscure, in order to preserve the idea that the gates of hell would not prevail against her.

You still deny the real presence in The Holy Eucharist do you not?

Forgive me...

 

[christianmomof3]

And therefore, with that lack of faith in The Church in tow... we are forced to change the definition of "Church" to something much more obscure, in order to preserve the idea that the gates of hell would not prevail against her.

You still deny the real presence in The Holy Eucharist do you not?

Forgive me...

I am not sure what your definition of "The Church" is.
I think that to the Orthodox, they think only they are "The Church".
It is my understanding that the church is the ekklesia - the gathering of the called out ones and it includes all redeemed and regenerated believers.
The church has both a universal aspect and a local aspect. The church is the Body of Christ. The gates of hell will not prevail against the church. Satan will and does attack the church, but he will never prevail. That has been promised and it is true.

As far as the eucharist, and the verses in your signature, those verses are closely followed by this one:

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

In this verse, Jesus was telling the Jews that it was not His physical flesh which they would be given to eat, for the flesh profits nothing, but the Spirit who gives life, who is the Lord Himself in resurrection.
He is the real food and the real drink and we can take Him in in spirit any time and any place.

The bread and wine that we partake of in the table meeting is to be done in rememberance of Him, which we do once a week.

 

[jckstraw72]

would you answer the conundrum I pointed out to you earlier please?

perhaps i missed it. could you repeat it puhlease.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Do you know why the Jews killed St. James?

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

perhaps i missed it. could you repeat it puhlease.

Originally Posted by jckstraw72
doesnt sound like its very Christ-like then ... Christ is the head afterall -- does He just let this stuff slip by unnoticed?
oh, no, he notices. there is nothing that escapes the notice of Christ.

but then you have a conundrum. IF no error could exist in the body of Christ, that MUST mean that everyone but one organization is not Christian at all. If you are in Christ, you are a member of his body. Therefore, you have to disqualify everyone but your own chosen Church as non-Christian, and either condemned, or at the very least, super lucky if God decides to show mercy on them, because they are quite obviously not Christian.

on the other hand, if you DO acknowledge that anyone but EO ARE part of the body of Christ, if you DO acknowledge that RCC, and Protestants are part of the Body, than it is guaranteed that error is in the body. Since we all cannot be completely right, you, the RCC, the protestant denom of your choice, doesn't matter whom, is in error, and error exists within the body.

so then, which is it? Are all non EO not christian and part of the body, or does error exist within the body?

 

[Uphill Battle]

There are many great truths within the Orthodox Church. I have read On the Incarnation and I found it to be very scriptural, accurate and to have a vision of Christ and the Body that most Christians do not see or understand.
However, there are also many things within the Orthodox practices and beliefs that I cannot accept.
I do not see that as a lack of faith in God, because the things that I cannot accept are those that are not scriptural.
If you see that as meaning that I think your church is wrong, then so be it.
But, I do recognize the great truths that the Orthodox church holds. I also recognize that the Roman Catholic Church holds great truths.
However, both have added to the word of God things that the Christ in me cannot accept.
I believe that there are many saints within the Orthodox and RCC churches who are my brothers and sisters in Christ. But I do not think that either organization is infallible. And I cannot accept the Tradition and stories of them as necessarily true either.

exactly how I feel.

(with the exception that I feel the Orthodox hold a great many more "great truths" than the Roman Catholics.)

And therefore, with that lack of faith in The Church in tow... we are forced to change the definition of "Church" to something much more obscure, in order to preserve the idea that the gates of hell would not prevail against her.

You still deny the real presence in The Holy Eucharist do you not?

Forgive me...

I'm sorry, I just do not buy the cliam that Jesus 1) meant an institution in the first place. I believe the meaning of church was changed to MEAN a single oranizational body, instead of away from, like you're saying. Nor, that the Gates of hell prevailing has anything to do with perfect historical records. THAT one just seems silly.

Do you know why the Jews killed St. James?

Forgive me...

If you know, just say so.

 

[E.C.]

If you know, just say so.

Why do we have confession when God knows all that we've done?

 

[jckstraw72]

so then, which is it? Are all non EO not christian and part of the body, or does error exist within the body?

strictly speaking, Orthodoxy IS the only real Christianity and only it is the Church Militant. i mean sure, Gnostics and Arians and Nestorians (and today the Mormons, JWs, etc) were "Christians" bc their faith included Christ in some way, but only Orthodoxy has preserved the Apostolic faith.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Originally Posted by jckstraw72
doesnt sound like its very Christ-like then ... Christ is the head afterall -- does He just let this stuff slip by unnoticed?
oh, no, he notices. there is nothing that escapes the notice of Christ.

but then you have a conundrum. IF no error could exist in the body of Christ, that MUST mean that everyone but one organization is not Christian at all. If you are in Christ, you are a member of his body. Therefore, you have to disqualify everyone but your own chosen Church as non-Christian, and either condemned, or at the very least, super lucky if God decides to show mercy on them, because they are quite obviously not Christian.

on the other hand, if you DO acknowledge that anyone but EO ARE part of the body of Christ, if you DO acknowledge that RCC, and Protestants are part of the Body, than it is guaranteed that error is in the body. Since we all cannot be completely right, you, the RCC, the protestant denom of your choice, doesn't matter whom, is in error, and error exists within the body.

so then, which is it? Are all non EO not christian and part of the body, or does error exist within the body?

Error exists, and there are more in the body than we will ever know.

It seems that you keep thinking that it has to be either /or..... it's both my friend.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Error exists, and there are more in the body than we will ever know.

It seems that you keep thinking that it has to be either /or..... it's both my friend.

Forgive me...

Of course it is. I was responding to the "hey, error can't have slipped into the Body of Christ, could it?" statement.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Hint:

Where was St. James, all day every day?

What was he doing... even after the death/resurrection/ascension of Christ.

Where and how did Christians worship Christ before being thrown out of the Temple? (HINT HINT)

Forgive me...

 

[jckstraw72]

Of course it is. I was responding to the "hey, error can't have slipped into the Body of Christ, could it?" statement.

by error i meant errors pertaining to the faith that have come in and stayed. people sinning is a totally separate issue, and heresies that come and go are separate as well.

 

[Uphill Battle]

by error i meant errors pertaining to the faith that have come in and stayed. people sinning is a totally separate issue, and heresies that come and go are separate as well.

then the conundrum remains.

One sample.

I don't believe that baptism is neccessary for salvation. I believe it is an EXTREMELY important part of a christian life, and if you reject doing it, you seriously have to consider that you may not really be wanting to follow Jesus. However, I don't believe that if someone is unbaptised, that they are not a Christian.

you're church teaches that baptism is neccessary for salvation.

one of us is wrong. I don't care who. But it is an error of "faith."

if as you claim, error can't get into the body, either you, or I, is not part of the body, OR error HAS entered the body.

it's as simple as that. So the question stands, which is it?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Hint:

Where was St. James, all day every day?

What was he doing... even after the death/resurrection/ascension of Christ.

Where and how did Christians worship Christ before being thrown out of the Temple? (HINT HINT)

Forgive me...

worshipping in the temple.

so what? I would to, if I was where the temple was.

does that mean I'd have to follow a script for worship?

 

[jckstraw72]

if as you claim, error can't get into the body, either you, or I, is not part of the body, OR error HAS entered the body.

it's as simple as that. So the question stands, which is it?

the answer is simple. Orthodoxy is the Body of Christ. you are not in it. the real conundrum, is why, having been introduced to Orthodoxy, have you remained separated from it? Christ called believers together into one flock, not as individuals to do their own thing and set up their own, innovative congregations.

 

[Uphill Battle]

the answer is simple. Orthodoxy is the Body of Christ. you are not in it. the real conundrum, is why, having been introduced to Orthodoxy, have you remained separated from it? Christ called believers together into one flock, not as individuals to do their own thing and set up their own, innovative congregations.

thank you for finally letting me know I'm not a part of the Body of Christ. you danced around it, but knowing others impressions is more refreshing than the humming and hawing over it.

 

[jckstraw72]

i didnt dance around it -- i gave you the same answer in post 90.

 

[namericanboy]

the answer is simple. Orthodoxy is the Body of Christ. you are not in it. the real conundrum, is why, having been introduced to Orthodoxy, have you remained separated from it? Christ called believers together into one flock, not as individuals to do their own thing and set up their own, innovative congregations.

Hmmmm.. I hear this same message in obob....One of them must be wrong,,...or the "church" is living stones built upon the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus as our cornerstone and the physical location the church meets and ministers is at different physical locations...Al those who are "in Christ" are His bride..There are tares among us all..