Why.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

who said anything about lying?

Like I said, it has all the trappings of an urban legend.

1) It's an interesting story.
2) It's independantly unverifiable.
3) the measure of "truth" of the story is those whom already believe it.

The same thing that made the High Priest mad at Jesus, TRUTH
I view the type of him in Luke 16 "being pained".

http://christianforums.com/t4437955-lazarus-and-the-rich-man.html

Mark 14:53 And they led away the Jesus toward the Chief-priest, and are coming together to Him all the chief-priests, and the elders, and the scribes;

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained/odunwmai <3600> (5743) in the flame, this."...................
29 Saying to him, Abraham: "They are having Moses and the Prophets: Let them hearken to them"!

So... your saying were going too far by preserving these stories?

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

So... your saying were going too far by preserving these stories?

Forgive me...

nope. That's not what I've stated.

 

[jckstraw72]

1) It's an interesting story.
2) It's independantly unverifiable.
3) the measure of "truth" of the story is those whom already believe it.

sounds like the vast majority of the Bible.

 

[Uphill Battle]

sounds like the vast majority of the Bible.

nah.

 

[Thekla]

This has all the trappings of urban legend.

actually, his martyrdom is mentioned in either Josephus or Eusebios' history (my mind, duh )

 

[CaDan]

And, IIRC, the Pseudo-Clementines.

 

[jckstraw72]

nah

whats the difference?
the Bible is interesting, much of it cant be independently verified, and its measure of truth is those whom already believe it. how is it different?

 

[christianmomof3]

whats the difference?
the Bible is interesting, much of it cant be independently verified, and its measure of truth is those whom already believe it. how is it different?

Wow.
That question shows a lot.
The Bible is God's word.
It is His speaking.
It is the Holy Spirit's revelation.
It is the bread of life.
The Lord Himself verifies His word to us.
The Bible has over 2000 claims to be the word of God - the very speaking of God.
Do the stories or records or whatever they are called - the writings that the Orthodox church refer to - do they claim to be the very word of God, the bread of life and the Holy Spirit's revelation?
The word of God is living and active and sharper than a two edged sword able to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. Do the Orthodox historical writings claim to be that and to be able to do that?
Do you actually think there is no difference in the Orthodox historical records and the Holy Bible?

 

[jckstraw72]

Wow.
That question shows a lot.
The Bible is God's word.
It is His speaking.
It is the Holy Spirit's revelation.
It is the bread of life.
The Lord Himself verifies His word to us.
The Bible has over 2000 claims to be the word of God - the very speaking of God.

i agree with all that.

the accusations made about the life of St. James can also be made about the Bible though. you mention that the Bible claims to be God's word. can that be independently verified? or is the evidence in those who already believe?

 

[jckstraw72]

Do the stories or records or whatever they are called - the writings that the Orthodox church refer to - do they claim to be the very word of God, the bread of life and the Holy Spirit's revelation?
The word of God is living and active and sharper than a two edged sword able to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. Do the Orthodox historical writings claim to be that and to be able to do that?
Do you actually think there is no difference in the Orthodox historical records and the Holy Bible?

the Bible IS historical records of Israel and the Church ...

 

[christianmomof3]

the Bible IS historical records of Israel and the Church ...

Yes, it is and it is the word of God.
Do the other historical writings claim to be the word of God?

 

[jckstraw72]

Do the other historical writings claim to be the word of God?

well i dont think every book of the Bible claims to be the word of God, but as for the historical records, i dont know. Whether they make the claim or not, they can lead us to God, convict us of our sins, give us examples of how to live, etc. im not placing them on the same level as the Bible at all. my only point was that UB's reasons for not accepting the St. James story are the exact same reasons ive heard plenty of people give for not believing the Bible -- they dont really hold water when faith and God are involved.

 

[Uphill Battle]

i agree with all that.

the accusations made about the life of St. James can also be made about the Bible though. you mention that the Bible claims to be God's word. can that be independently verified? or is the evidence in those who already believe?

alot of it HAS been independantly verified.

 

[Uphill Battle]

well i dont think every book of the Bible claims to be the word of God, but as for the historical records, i dont know. Whether they make the claim or not, they can lead us to God, convict us of our sins, give us examples of how to live, etc. im not placing them on the same level as the Bible at all. my only point was that UB's reasons for not accepting the St. James story are the exact same reasons ive heard plenty of people give for not believing the Bible -- they dont really hold water when faith and God are involved.

it isn't a matter of accepting, or not accepting. It's a matter of agnosticism on something that can't really be known beyond faith, and something that doesn't figure strongly at all TO my faith.

 

[CaDan]

Wow.
That question shows a lot.
The Bible is God's word.
It is His speaking.
It is the Holy Spirit's revelation.
It is the bread of life.
The Lord Himself verifies His word to us.
The Bible has over 2000 claims to be the word of God - the very speaking of God.
Do the stories or records or whatever they are called - the writings that the Orthodox church refer to - do they claim to be the very word of God, the bread of life and the Holy Spirit's revelation?
The word of God is living and active and sharper than a two edged sword able to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. Do the Orthodox historical writings claim to be that and to be able to do that?
Do you actually think there is no difference in the Orthodox historical records and the Holy Bible?

It shows he doesn't share the same assumptions of American Evangelicalism. Who woulda thunk it?

 

[jckstraw72]

It's a matter of agnosticism on something that can't really be known beyond faith, and something that doesn't figure strongly at all TO my faith.

thats my point -- was Jesus really God, did He really rise from the dead, etc cant really be known beyond faith and God revealing it to someone, which cant be proven to anyone else.

also, the martyrdom of Stephen doesnt figure strongly to my faith either, but its worthy of being preserved either way. had St. James's martyrdom been included in the Bible we would all accept it no questions asked.

 

[christianmomof3]

im not placing them on the same level as the Bible at all.

ok, thank you - that is good that you can see the difference.

 

[Uphill Battle]

thats my point -- was Jesus really God, did He really rise from the dead, etc cant really be known beyond faith and God revealing it to someone, which cant be proven to anyone else.

also, the martyrdom of Stephen doesnt figure strongly to my faith either, but its worthy of being preserved either way. had St. James's martyrdom been included in the Bible we would all accept it no questions asked.

yes, we would.

Because scripture is inerrant. It doesn't suffer from the ravages of mans stupidity.

Basically, I've realized (and it is not a NEW thought at all, but an old one) that when truth and legend stand side by side, if legend if more comfortable, people tend to print the legend.

case in point.... Paul Revere.

the quotable is "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

 

[jckstraw72]

It doesn't suffer from the ravages of mans stupidity.

well why do you believe that ONLY Scripture is free from this? how have stupid men preserved it inerrantly? can Christ's own Body preserve falsehoods within it?

 

[christianmomof3]

thats my point -- was Jesus really God, did He really rise from the dead, etc cant really be known beyond faith and God revealing it to someone, which cant be proven to anyone else.

also, the martyrdom of Stephen doesnt figure strongly to my faith either, but its worthy of being preserved either way. had St. James's martyrdom been included in the Bible we would all accept it no questions asked.

But, Jame's martyrdom was not included there.
That does not mean that it may not have happened, but, it does mean that it is not a matter of the faith - it is not necessary for all believers to accept.
The martyrdom of Stephen is important and that is why it was recorded in the Bible.
Stephen's testimony was wonderful and important for us to know. It was spoken according to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
In verse 48 Stephen said that the Most High does not dwell in that which is made by hands. This showed that God would abandon the material temple of the Old Testament and would begin a new dispensation for His people to worship Him in the spirit in which is God&#8217;s spiritual habitation, the church.
The word in 7:49 showed that the Lord was seeking a spiritual habitation in man&#8217;s spirit. This is proved by the following part of the quotation from Isaiah 66:1-2, which says, &#8220;But to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit.&#8221;
Stephen gave us a wonderful and important revelation about the Lord.
Verse 55 says, &#8220;But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking intently into heaven, he saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.&#8221;
Stephen say the glory of God!
Did anyone else in the Bible say that they saw the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God?
The example of Stephen is an incredible and wonderful example of one who saw the Lord and loved Him and died for Him.
It is included in the Bible for a reason.
Does that mean that other martyrs were not as valid?
Not necessarily, but, their stories were not included in the Bible.
Every word that is included in the Bible is there for a reason.
We can gain Christ from them.
The same cannot be said for other writings.