Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

Butch5 · Mar 14, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
They are of the same root. They do not mean the same thing.

Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, …

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting. ...

They are the same word. One is the noun form the other is the adjective form. They mean the same thing. Posting an incorrect definition from a dictionary doesn't change that. A dictionary definition is only what something "thinks" the word means. A dictionary definition is not Scripture. I've shown repeatedly that aion doesn't mean eternal. Yoy can believe the dictionary or you can believe Jesus' words. It's up to you.

Mark Quayle · Mar 14, 2023

Butch5 said:
They are the same word. One is the noun form the other is the adjective form. They mean the same thing. Posting an incorrect definition from a dictionary doesn't change that. A dictionary definition is only what something "thinks" the word means. A dictionary definition is not Scripture. I've shown repeatedly that aion doesn't mean eternal. Yoy can believe the dictionary or you can believe Jesus' words. It's up to you.

So your opinion is Jesus words. You can ignore the meaning and the Bible use of the words, replace them with your opinion, and suddenly (and not before), we have Jesus words?

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2023

Butch5 said:
The reason we see these back-and-forth discussions is because we don't study the Bible as a whole. We're taught to proof text passages of Scripture to make a point. But here we have a dilemma. As we've seen, aion can't possibly mean forever, so why is it translated as forever so often? It's because translators don't understand how the word is being used. It's really not hard to figure out if we let the Scriptures show us how it is used. The problem is that translators already have their understanding of Scripture when they translate, and it influences their translation. This is called translator bias.

Nice theory, but in what texts is "eternal" being used incorrectly?

Butch5 said:
One question arises, if aion doesn't mean eternal, then how do we know if we have enteral life? Well, we have to find Scripture that describes an unending life without using the word aion. We do have Scripture that shows us that and it comes from none other than Jesus Himself.
The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 20:34–36.

We see here from Jesus own words that the children of the Resurrection die no more. That is the definition of eternal life. They die no more.

And "eternal" is also the nature, quality of God's own divine life, which is imparted to our immortal spirits in the re-birth (Jn 1:12-13).

Butch5 said:
So, we see that those who acheive the Resurrection die no more, they have eternal life. So, here we have eternal life explained without the use of the word aion.

But, what's interesting here is that Jesus said, 'the children of this aion'. Yes, that's right. Jesus speaks of this aion and another aion to come. This once again shows that the aion ends We have one now and one to follow. Notice also that etneral life comes in the next aion, when the Resurrection occurs. Earlier in Luke Jesus made this statement.

28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee. 29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 18:28–30.

Again, the word "world" is aion. Jesus said they would receive more in this present time and in the aion, age, to come aionios life.

In one passage Jesus said that those accounted worthy to attain that aion, age, and the Resurrection would never die. In the other passage Jesus said they would receive aionios, age enduring life in the aion, age, to come. In this second passage it would appear that aionios means eternal, however, however, we've seen plenty of times that it can't mean eternal.

What passages are they?

Butch5 said:
So what are we to make of this. Aionios is an adjective, it gives qualities of the age. It's age enduring. In the case of life it's age enduring life. So how can age enduring life be eternal if aion cannot mean eternal? The answer is in Jesus' words. He said they would receive aionios, age enduring life in the age to come,

If aionios means "age enduring," why all the objection to the word "eternal?"

Butch5 said:
not this age.

But we have eternal life now (Jn 3:36, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:47, 1 Jn 3:14, 1 Jn 5:11-13) in knowing God and the one he has sent (Jn 17:3), which does not preclude the age to come.

Butch5 said:
Jesus and the aposltes all spoke of the end of this age. Jesus is here speaking of the age to come. He also said that those who achieve "that aion, age" shall never die. So, if in that age they never die, and in that age they have aionios life, the obvious answer is that the age to come doesn't end, it is eternal. If the coming age is eternal then those who achieve it would no longer die and they would have aionios, age enduring life, without forcing aion to mean eternal.

That's how we can understand the word aion in all of it's contexts and have it harmonize with all of its occurrences.

My demonstration (post #101) is in regard to aionios, not aion.

The etymology of a word is not necessarily its meaning in current usage.
The NT adequately demonstrates throughout that its usage of aionios means "eternal."
And that includes the eternal life and eternal (aionios) punishment of Mt 25:46, elsewhere described by Jesus as fire.

So why are we re-inventing the wheel of aionios?
What personal theology is driving this?

Der Alte · Mar 14, 2023

Butch5 said:
No, Jesus isn't lying. You're just misunderstanding His words. Those on the left will go into age enduring punishment. There's nothing eternal here.

You keep quoting scholars. Why not accept the words of the greatest Scholar that ever lived, Jesus? He said the aion ends. I'll toss your question back at you. Did Jesus lie?

If you didn't hold the false doctrine of the "Immortal Soul", then you wouldn't hold the false doctrine of eternal torment. This is why proof texting is so dangerous. One doctrine builds on another. So, if the foundation is wrong, the whole building is wrong. Suppose for a second that man was not immortal and when he died, he was dead. What would happen to those who were thrown into the Lake of Fire? They would die, correct? There would be no eternal torment. So, this is all based on the doctrine of the "Immortal Soul" which is a doctrine that was held by the pagan nations and introduced into the Christian Faith through its interaction with Greeks.

I don't hold to false anything, you do. I quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT their language has been Greek for 2 millennia +/-. It will take more than your specious objections to prove them wrong. You claim Jesus said the aion ends 3 times. Jesus also said 10 times that aionios means shall not perish. Also, other NT writers said 10 times that "aionios" means shall not perish. You are correct "proof texting is dangerous" so why do you continue to do it? Insisting that 3 vss. "prove" aion" does not mean eternal and ignoring 10 vss. spoken by Jesus, Himself, saying that "aionios" means "shall not perish."
Jesus, Himself, said "eternal punishment."

Der Alte · Mar 14, 2023

Butch5 said:
It's not incorrect. Ran and run are both forms of the same word. Aion and aionos are both forms of the same word. They don't change meaning they just change spelling. If I say, I will run, or I say, I ran, the action is the same. The only difference is the time when the action happened.

Aionios is NOT related to aion in the same sense that run is related to ran. Run and ran are both verbs, run is the present tense, ran is the past tense. OTOH "aion" is a noun and "aionios" is an adjective, nouns do not have tenses.
The definition of "aionios" from BDAG, which represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship. Note the 80+ sources the authors consulted in determining the correct definition, highlighted in blue.

αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 a.d.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
① pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).
② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr Fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).
③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατοςB 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33.

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2023

Bob corrigan said:
I have some questions for those who believe that hell is a real place and that the wicked will be punished forever. What would be the purpose of this? What does it accomplish? How does this give glory to God? Why would God require the wicked dead to suffer forever?

I am not looking to debate whether or not hell is real. I don't believe it is; others do. I'm not looking for somebody to prove hell is real. What I seek is Scripture-based answers, answers using verses. I don't want opinions or speculations.

I wonder if that camp even thinks about these questions. It is clear in Scripture that unforgiven sinners will be punished for their sins. Jesus was punished on the cross for sins. He paid the price of the punishment for sins. Yet, did he not die? And with his death, did not the punishment for sins end? If you use the rationale that the punishment for sins is never to end, doesn't that mean that Jesus would still be on the cross, still being punished for sins, until today? And beyond today into eternity?
Without a doubt, there have been many, many wicked people in the history of mankind. Individuals, governments, religions, criminals, warlords, etc., are personally responsible for countless deaths. And the many others who have caused incredible pain and suffering. People who should have been made to suffer great punishment while alive. It is also true that God dealt out some severe punishments in the Old Testament.

Let's move on from all of that. So Jesus has returned and judged all of the goats. So, what happens next? There is no way that all goats are equally guilty of the same evil deeds, quantity or degree. Your vision of Dante's Infernal aside, Scripture makes no mention of what type of punishment or if there are different degrees of punishment awaiting the goats, so we must deduce that the punishment is the same type for all of the goats. So, will a man who abused his children, committed adultery, and embezzled money from his job be punished the same as Hitler or Stalin? Or a woman who was a junkie, defrauded the government, stole widows' social security checks, and robbed men for kicks is going to pay the same price as Pol Pot or Mao?
According to the narrative, every goat in hell will be punished forever and ever. Not just a hundred years, a thousand, a million but trillions of years? Doesn't that seem like overkill? Doesn't that seem beyond excessive? God can do as He sees fit, of course. So no amount of punishment ever fits the crimes, right? A thousand years of 24/7, excruciating, non-stop pain and agony isn't even close to being enough punishment, right? Not a thousand, not a million, not a trillion years is even close to unforgiven sin ever being paid for?
This is what you people believe. The idea that God would simply destroy all the goats after judgment day just doesn't make any sense, does it? According to you, God has no mercy and no sense of justice. Just "Let 'em burn," right? "Let them suffer forever," right? To me, this makes God out to be the most sadistic, mean, and petty tyrant one could ever imagine.
And yet, why would God do this? Everything God has done, is doing and will do is because He has a reason to do so. What would be the reason for hell? Everything that God started is going to come to an end and God is going to start over; any traces of the old world and the taint of man and sin will have been eradicated and forgotten. Does God want to keep a reminder of sinful men around? Is hell going to be there as a warning to the saints, who after the resurrection, will never commit sin again? I'm just trying to put this puzzle of ever-lasting punishment together. I'm hoping one of you can explain it to me, using Scripture of course!

Well, the great majority would agree that the devil and his angels (the actual phrasing used in scripture to single them out as a group) are to be there forever.

Because most I think would agree: they won't "perish" (scripture says that human souls there will "perish", lacking eternal life, in that "second death" for human souls.

After all, angels of course did not have a 'first death', and will never die....

(But humans will perish there in that second death which Christ worded it will "destroy body and soul" for humans there. And that's for those humans of course an eternal outcome, thus an "eternal punishment".)

So, to answer your main tittle question we have to answer how/why is it that the devil and his angels deserve eternal torment

Right? Isn't that what it takes to answer your main question then?

This we can answer well enough it seems. The devil and his angels had been literally in heaven with God, seeing endless confirmation of Him and His glory....and all the powerful advantages of that to help them follow what is Good, His Way....

In the bible, anytime that humans directly see miracles, they suddenly become much more accountable, even to immediate punishment to death. We see that in many places. Moses led Israel, and they saw many miracles from God, but some then made a golden calf to worship.... God simply destroyed those that worshipped that golden calf, after a very brief moment when they could have moved to separate themselves and leave it.

Ananias and Sapphira.

Simon Magnus (Simon the Magician), only saved possibly by the possible entreaty of Peter to intervene that he might be spared (we usually assume that when Simon begged, then Peter prayed for him to be forgiven).

If you see miracles, suddenly you are much more accountable.

We are not accountable for what we don't know.

Butch5 · Mar 14, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
So your opinion is Jesus words. You can ignore the meaning and the Bible use of the words, replace them with your opinion, and suddenly (and not before), we have Jesus words?

The Greek texts don't have the English word eternity in them. The English word enternity is the word that was wrongly chosen by the translators. So, I'm not ignoring the Biblical use. Actually, you are. As I have pointed it numerous times now, Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles speak of the END of the aion. However, rather than accepting how Jesus and the apostles use the word aion, many here have chosen to take the word of the English translators over the word of Jesus and the apostles. I'll ask yet again, how can something that ends be eternal when the very definition of eternal is unending? This is really straight forward. It shows beyond any doubt that the translators got it wrong. For some reason people will believe an absolute absurdity rather than go against the flow. Church doctrine always take precedence over Scripture. This is a perfect example of that.

Butch5 · Mar 14, 2023

Der Alte said:
Aionios is NOT related to aion in the same sense that run is related to ran. Run and ran are both verbs, run is the present tense, ran is the past tense. OTOH "aion" is a noun and "aionios" is an adjective, nouns do not have tenses.
The definition of "aionios" from BDAG, which represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship. Note the 80+ sources the authors consulted in determining the correct definition, highlighted in blue.

αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 a.d.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

① pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).

② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr Fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).

③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατοςB 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33.

As I've said several times. Aion and aionios are both forms of the same word. The usage is the sentence changes the meaning does not.

It doesn't matter if you have a million years of scholarship, it just means you have a million years if incorrect Scholarship.

Surely you are intelligent enough to acknowledge that something that ends cannot be eternal, correct? That ends it. It doesn't matter if 20 billion people say it's eternal. If it ends its not eternal, period, end if story, case closed. There's no debate here. The debating makes people look ridiculous. A five year old knows that something that ends cannot be eternal.

Butch5 · Mar 14, 2023

Clare73 said:
Nice theory, but in what texts is "eternal" being used incorrectly?

And "eternal" is also the nature, quality of God's own divine life, which is imparted to our immortal spirits in the re-birth (Jn 1:12-13).

What passages are they?

If aionios means "age enduring," why all the objection to the word "eternal?"

But we have eternal life now (Jn 3:36, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:47, 1 Jn 3:14, 1 Jn 5:11-13) in knowing God and the one he has sent (Jn 17:3), which does not preclude the age to come.

My demonstration (post #101) is in regard to aionios, not aion.

The etymology of a word is not necessarily its meaning in current usage.
The NT adequately demonstrates throughout that its usage of aionios means "eternal."
And that includes the eternal life and eternal (aionios) punishment of Mt 25:46, elsewhere described by Jesus as fire.

So why are we re-inventing the wheel of aionios?
What personal theology is driving this?

It's all there Clare. Maybe reading it again will clarify.

Der Alte · Mar 14, 2023

Butch5 said:
The Greek texts don't have the English word eternity in them. The English word enternity is the word that was wrongly chosen by the translators. So, I'm not ignoring the Biblical use. Actually, you are. As I have pointed it numerous times now, Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles speak of the END of the aion. However, rather than accepting how Jesus and the apostles use the word aion, many here have chosen to take the word of the English translators over the word of Jesus and the apostles. I'll ask yet again, how can something that ends be eternal when the very definition of eternal is unending? This is really straight forward. It shows beyond any doubt that the translators got it wrong. For some reason people will believe an absolute absurdity rather than go against the flow. Church doctrine always take precedence over Scripture. This is a perfect example of that.

False information. The meaning of a word is NOT determined by how it is used in few vss. Aion occurs in the NT 128 times it is only said to end 6 times. Matthew 13:39, Matthew 13:40, Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20 and Hebrews 9:26. Jesus, Himself, defined "aionios" as eternal/forever/everlasting 10 times. No matter how loud you yell you can't change that. Luke 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:24, 7:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:57
Paul, Peter and John: Romans 5:21, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, Romans 2:7, 1 Timothy 1:17, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Peter 1:25, 1 Peter 5:10, Revelation 14:11

Butch5 · Mar 14, 2023

Der Alte said:
False information. The meaning of a word is NOT determined by how it is used in few vss. Aion occurs in the NT 128 times it is only said to end 6 times. Matthew 13:39, Matthew 13:40, Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20 and Hebrews 9:26. Jesus, Himself, defined "aionios" as eternal/forever/everlasting 10 times. No matter how loud you yell you can't change that. Luke 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:24, 7:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:57
Paul, Peter and John: Romans 5:21, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, Romans 2:7, 1 Timothy 1:17, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Peter 1:25, 1 Peter 5:10, Revelation 14:11

Do you realize that it's not a numbers game? It's not whoever has the most verses wins. If it was only used once and said to end, it still ends. You can't simply dismiss it and say, it translated eternal more.so that's what it means. That's not exegesis, it's eisegesis.

If your understanding of the word cannot incorporate ALL of its uses then your understanding is wrong. As I said, there is no debate here. If something ends it isn't eternal. This is first grade stuff here.

Jesus did not define aion as eternal. Show me a single passage where Jesus said, the word aion means eternal. He didn't. What you're posting is YOUR understanding of those passages. Since you can't incorporate all of the uses of the word in your understanding you should reconsider your understanding.

Mark Quayle · Mar 14, 2023

Butch5 said:
The Greek texts don't have the English word eternity in them. The English word enternity is the word that was wrongly chosen by the translators. So, I'm not ignoring the Biblical use. Actually, you are. As I have pointed it numerous times now, Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles speak of the END of the aion. However, rather than accepting how Jesus and the apostles use the word aion, many here have chosen to take the word of the English translators over the word of Jesus and the apostles. I'll ask yet again, how can something that ends be eternal when the very definition of eternal is unending? This is really straight forward. It shows beyond any doubt that the translators got it wrong. For some reason people will believe an absolute absurdity rather than go against the flow. Church doctrine always take precedence over Scripture. This is a perfect example of that.

You say, "So, I'm not ignoring the Biblical use. Actually, you are."

Well, actually no. I haven't even given my opinion of the Biblical use. Only Strong's opinion. All I said is that they don't mean the same thing. Here is what I said, once more. Check it over so you can correctly criticize me for daring to question your wisdom, knowledge and integrity.

I'm thinking your exuberance is getting the better of you. You have a thesis you are excited about, and don't even know whether someone is agreeing with you or not, subtracting from what you say, adding to what you say, denying what you say or what. I've got a pretty good feeling that is how you read scripture too.

Mark Quayle said:
They are of the same root. They do not mean the same thing.

Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, …

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting. ...

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2023

Each person has some uniqueness of their views and thinking when you get into details, and so we hear how we should respond:

Romans 14 NIV

biblehub.com

-- how to respond to a different view (it's not only about foods or Saturday vs Sunday, or what is the "age to come" (one attempt at literal translation...) it's about everything beside the gospel itself

Der Alte · Mar 14, 2023

Butch5 said:
Do you realize that it's not a numbers game? It's not whoever has the most verses wins. If it was only used once and said to end, it still ends. You can't simply dismiss it and say, it translated eternal more.so that's what it means. That's not exegesis, it's eisegesis.

If your understanding of the word cannot incorporate ALL of its uses then your understanding is wrong. As I said, there is no debate here. If something ends it isn't eternal. This is first grade stuff here.

Jesus did not define aion as eternal. Show me a single passage where Jesus said, the word aion means eternal. He didn't. What you're posting is YOUR understanding of those passages. Since you can't incorporate all of the uses of the word in your understanding you should reconsider your understanding.

I speak more than one language I don't have to reconsider anything. You do not know how language functions. A person does NOT have to use the word define or describe to be describing/defining a word. For example, The Greek word "micron" means the opposite of big. I have just defined the word "micron" without using the word "define." A word cannot have 2 different unrelated meanings.. As I said Simon was not a stone when Jesus named him that. Simon was not Satan when Jesus called him that. Herod was not a fox when Jesus called him one. The sons of John were not sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. If we use your reasoning Herod was actually a fox, Simon was actually Satan and a stone when Jesus called him that. And the sons of John were actually sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.
Tell me what do you think Jesus meant when he said "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." three times? John 3:15-16 John 10:28 Did Jesus mean that their aionios life would end?

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2023

Butch5 said:
It's all there Clare. Maybe reading it again will clarify.

But you left a lot on the table unaddressed in my post (#143):

1) In what texts is aionios being used incorrectly?

2) And "eternal" is also the nature, quality of God's own divine life, which is imparted to our immortal spirits in the re-birth (Jn 1:12-13).

In this second passage it would appear that aionios means eternal, however, however, we've seen plenty of times that it can't mean eternal.

3) In what passages does aionios not mean "eternal?"

4) If aionios means "age enduring," why all the objection to the word "eternal?"

5) But we have eternal life now (Jn 3:36, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:47, 1 Jn 3:14, 1 Jn 5:11-13) in knowing God and the one he has sent (Jn 17:3), which does not preclude the age to come.

6) My demonstration (post #101) is in regard to aionios, not aion.

The etymology of a word is not necessarily its meaning in current usage.
The NT adequately demonstrates throughout that its usage of aionios means "eternal."
And that includes the eternal life and eternal (aionios) punishment of Mt 25:46, elsewhere described by Jesus as fire.

So why are we re-inventing the wheel of aionios?
What personal theology is driving this?

Butch5 · Mar 15, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
You say, "So, I'm not ignoring the Biblical use. Actually, you are."

Well, actually no. I haven't even given my opinion of the Biblical use. Only Strong's opinion. All I said is that they don't mean the same thing. Here is what I said, once more. Check it over so you can correctly criticize me for daring to question your wisdom, knowledge and integrity.

I'm thinking your exuberance is getting the better of you. You have a thesis you are excited about, and don't even know whether someone is agreeing with you or not, subtracting from what you say, adding to what you say, denying what you say or what. I've got a pretty good feeling that is how you read scripture too.

Mark Quayle said:
They are of the same root. They do not mean the same thing.

Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, …

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting. ...

It's sad that big have to do this. Here is what you said in post 142.

"So your opinion is Jesus words. You can ignore the meaning and the Bible use of the words, replace them with your opinion, and suddenly (and not before), we have Jesus words?"

My statement was that aion doesn't mean eternity. You pasted Strong's definiton. In the above statement you said "you can ignore the meaning and the Bible use of the words". Telling me I'm ignoring "the definition" of the words, is a tacit admission that you acknowledge that definition as correct. Thus my statement that it is you who are are wrong.

Also, in claiming that what I posted is my "opinion" you commit the incredible ignorance fallacy, as others have. Jesus speaking of the end of the aion is "not", my opinion. It's provable fact.

Butch5 · Mar 15, 2023

Der Alte said:
I speak more than one language I don't have to reconsider anything. You do not know how language functions. A person does NOT have to use the word define or describe to be describing/defining a word. For example, The Greek word "micron" means the opposite of big. I have just defined the word "micron" without using the word "define." A word cannot have 2 different unrelated meanings.. As I said Simon was not a stone when Jesus named him that. Simon was not Satan when Jesus called him that. Herod was not a fox when Jesus called him one. The sons of John were not sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. If we use your reasoning Herod was actually a fox, Simon was actually Satan and a stone when Jesus called him that. And the sons of John were actually sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.
Tell me what do you think Jesus meant when he said "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." three times? John 3:15-16 John 10:28 Did Jesus mean that their aionios life would end?

You're correct. One doesn't have to use the word define to define something. But, Jesus saying aionios life is not definition, it's a statement. Jesus saying the sheep go to aionios life and the goats to aionios punishment is not a definition, it's a statement. The reason you"THINK" this proves your point is because you come to the text already believing the Word means eternal. Let's look at you example.

"Tell me what do you think Jesus meant when he said "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." three times? John 3:15-16 John 10:28 Did Jesus mean that their aionios life would end?"

What in your statement here leads you to believe that the aionios life would not end? There's nothing in this statement to indicate that the aionios life is eternal. That conclusion comes from a preconception that aionios means eternal.

However, I've already explained this in post 138. In your question here, what age are you referring to? If you are referring to the current age, then yes, life ends. If you are referring to the coming age, then no, the life will not end, as that age is unending.

Mark 10:29–30 (NKJV): 29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.

Butch5 · Mar 15, 2023

Clare73 said:
But you left a lot on the table unaddressed in my post (#143):

1) In what texts is aionios being used incorrectly?

In the texts where it's translated eternal

Clare73 said:
2) And "eternal" is also the nature, quality of God's own divine life, which is imparted to our immortal spirits in the re-birth (Jn 1:12-13).

Not sure what this has to do with the subject.

Clare73 said:
3) In what passages does aionios not mean "eternal?"

In none of them

Clare73 said:
4) If aionios means "age enduring," why all the objection to the word "eternal?"

Translator bias

Clare73 said:
5) But we have eternal life now (Jn 3:36, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:47, 1 Jn 3:14, 1 Jn 5:11-13) in knowing God and the one he has sent (Jn 17:3), which does not preclude the age to come.

Not according to Jesus. And not according to reality. Christians die. If ones life ends they don't have unending life.

Clare73 said:
6) My demonstration (post #101) is in regard to aionios, not aion.

It's the same word

Clare73 said:
The etymology of a word is not necessarily its meaning in current usage.
The NT adequately demonstrates throughout that its usage of aionios means "eternal."
And that includes the eternal life and eternal (aionios) punishment of Mt 25:46, elsewhere described by Jesus as fire.

Something that ends cannot be eternal.

Clare73 said:
So why are we re-inventing the wheel of aionios?
What personal theology is driving this?

Not reinventing anything. Just correcting an egregious error.

Clare73 · Mar 15, 2023

Butch5 said:
1) In the texts where it's translated eternal

Non-responsive. . .

Butch5 said:
2) Not sure what this has to do with the subject.

Then you don't have a NT understanding of eternal life.
It's not about duration, which is incidental.
It's about its nature, it is God's own divine life (which by nature is eternal) which Adam lost in his rebellion, being again imparted to the immortal human spirit (not to the body) when one is sovereignly born from above by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

Immortality of the body is not until the resurrection (1 Co15:53).
Immortality of the human spirit is at its inception, both in the damned and in the redeemed.
It is that immortal human spirit that is the locus of the indwelling Holy Spirit, of God's own divine eternal life.

This impartation of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit is spiritual (Holy Spirit) life, not to be confused with the immortal human spirit's own natural (spirit) life.
The absence of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit is the meaning of spiritual death, into which we are born (not death of the immortal human spirit itself, but absence of divine life indwelling it), born condemned (Ro 5:18), and by nature (with which we are also born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), from which wrath Jesus saves those who believe (Ro 5:9) in him and his atoning work (Ro 3:25) for the remission of their sin and right standing standing with God's justice; i.e., acquitted of guilt.

Butch5 said:
3) In none of them
4) Translator bias
5) Not according to Jesus. And not according to reality. Christians die. If ones life ends they don't have unending life.

Non-responsive. . .failure to address the Scriptures presented showing eternal life now: Jn 3:36, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:47, 1 Jn 3:14, 1 Jn 5:11-13.

These Scriptures demonstrate that you do not know the NT meaning of eternal life, which is now in the born from above and required to even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-8), which is also here now (Lk 11:30, Mt 21:43).
Yours is a major contra-Biblical doctrine here, and the foundation of all your other contra-Biblical notions.

Butch5 said:
It's the same word
Something that ends cannot be eternal.
Not reinventing anything. Just correcting an egregious error.

All your responses here are assertions without Biblical demonstration making them assertions without Biblical merit.

Der Alte · Mar 15, 2023

Butch5 said:
You're correct. One doesn't have to use the word define to define something. But, Jesus saying aionios life is not definition, it's a statement. Jesus saying the sheep go to aionios life and the goats to aionios punishment is not a definition, it's a statement. The reason you"THINK" this proves your point is because you come to the text already believing the Word means eternal. Let's look at you example.
"Tell me what do you think Jesus meant when he said "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." three times? John 3:15-16 John 10:28 Did Jesus mean that their aionios life would end?"
What in your statement here leads you to believe that the aionios life would not end? There's nothing in this statement to indicate that the aionios life is eternal. That conclusion comes from a preconception that aionios means eternal.
However, I've already explained this in post 138. In your question here, what age are you referring to? If you are referring to the current age, then yes, life ends. If you are referring to the coming age, then no, the life will not end, as that age is unending.
Mark 10:29–30 (NKJV): 29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.

So, you maintain that Christians do not inherit eternal life? Evidently you have not even read my posts quoting 10 vss. spoken by Jesus, Himself, where He describes/defines aionios zoe as "eternal life" and "shall not perish." or the 10 vss spoken by other NT writers Paul, Peter and John. In one vs. Rom 16:26 Paul uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios" in Rom 1:20. Scholars unanimously agree that "aidios" means "eternal."

Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

Newbie

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Blood-bought

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Everything You say is Life to me

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Newbie

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Everything You say is Life to me

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Blood-bought

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Blood-bought

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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