Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Der Alte]

What does it say then?
The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40
Red herring deflection from dealing with:
The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40

Nobody is saved by helping one or a few unfortunates one time, if they have lived a life of sin.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Nobody is saved by helping one or a few unfortunates one time, if they have lived a life of sin.

Then why did Jesus say; ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:40)?

So far you're at verse 40 isn't true and isn't meant to be taken literally, but verse 46 is true and is meant to be taken literally - which doesn't make any sense of course.

 

[Der Alte]

Then why did Jesus say; ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:40)?
So far you're at verse 40 isn't true and isn't meant to be taken literally, but verse 46 is true and is meant to be taken literally - which doesn't make any sense of course.

Show me another verse which says that an unrighteous person is saved by ministering to a needy person one time, and lives like the devil the rest of the time. Or should we throw out the rest of the Bible because that one vs. says "whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." Are you familiar with the concept of context?
Maybe we should throw the Bible away and just tell people, "All you have to do to be saved is help some needy person one time?"

 

[Ceallaigh]

Show me another verse which says that an unrighteous person is saved by ministering to a needy person one time, and lives like the devil the rest of the time. Or should we throw out the rest of the Bible because that one vs. says "whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." Are you familiar with the concept of context?
Maybe we should throw the Bible away and just tell people, "All you have to do to be saved is help some needy person one time?"

What's the context then? Because the context of: Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. (Matthew 25:40) is in the same as the context of: Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)

 

[Der Alte]

What's the context then? Because the context of: Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. (Matthew 25:40) is in the same as the context of: Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)

One verse in the Bible cannot contradict, or be contradicted by, any other verse in the Bible. Once again Plz show me one vs. in addition to Matt 25:45, two or more would be better, where the unrighteous who have lived a life of sin, are saved by ministering to one needy person? Please see Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[timothyu]

Of course.

 

[Butch5]

Non-responsive. . .

Then you don't have a NT understanding of eternal life.
It's not about duration, which is incidental.
It's about its nature, it is God's own divine life (which by nature is eternal) which Adam lost in his rebellion, being again imparted to the immortal human spirit (not to the body) when one is sovereignly born from above by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

Immortality of the body is not until the resurrection (1 Co15:53).
Immortality of the human spirit is at its inception, both in the damned and in the redeemed.
It is that immortal human spirit that is the locus of the indwelling Holy Spirit, of God's own divine eternal life.

This impartation of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit is spiritual (Holy Spirit) life, not to be confused with the immortal human spirit's own natural (spirit) life.
The absence of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit is the meaning of spiritual death, into which we are born (not death of the immortal human spirit itself, but absence of divine life indwelling it), born condemned (Ro 5:18), and by nature (with which we are also born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), from which wrath Jesus saves those who believe (Ro 5:9) in him and his atoning work (Ro 3:25) for the remission of their sin and right standing standing with God's justice; i.e., acquitted of guilt.

Non-responsive. . .failure to address the Scriptures presented showing eternal life now: Jn 3:36, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:47, 1 Jn 3:14, 1 Jn 5:11-13.

These Scriptures demonstrate that you do not know the NT meaning of eternal life, which is now in the born from above and required to even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-8), which is also here now (Lk 11:30, Mt 21:43).
Yours is a major contra-Biblical doctrine here, and the foundation of all your other contra-Biblical notions.


All your responses here are assertions without Biblical demonstration making them assertions without Biblical merit.

Clare, can we dispense with the nonsense? We both know I understand what eternal life is. The word eternal has to do with time, not nature. The only immortality that man has "IS" of the body. That happens at the resurrection.

I'm not sure why you keep asking for Biblical references, you don't believe them. You keep insisting that aion means eternal when I've shown you several passages where Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles speak of the "END" of the aion. In spite of this you've chosen to believe the translators. So why do you need Biblical references. However, since you insist here are the words of Paul.

1 Timothy 6:13–16 (NKJV): 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

There you have it, straight out of Scripture. The Father "ALONE" has immortality. That means no on else does. No man has immorality. Save Jesus, there are no immortal bodies, now, and there is no immortal human spirit.

 

[Butch5]

You got your "facts" mixed up. There is NOT one occurrence of the word "aionios", an adjective, in the NT, where it is said to end. No. Zero. None.

I really expect more from people who are studied. I really think if you weren't so concerned with winning an argument you could really make progress. We both know that aionios is the adjectiveive form of the noun aion. We both know that the definition of a noun doesn't change when it used as an adjective. So, the above argument is either simply ignorant, which I wouldn't expect from someone who is studied, or disingenuous which I wouldn't expect from a Christian..

Also, the opposite of aionios life is the second death which by nature is permanent so, there'd be no need to say that the death is aionios.

 

[Butch5]

Also, there, I did not disagree (nor agree) with your opinion, but with your habit of thinking that if we have your opinion we have Jesus' words.

Do you realize that adding "your opinion" is the fallacy of Poisoning the Well?

 

[Der Alte]

***
I'm not sure why you keep asking for Biblical references, you don't believe them. You keep insisting that aion means eternal when I've shown you several passages where Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles speak of the "END" of the aion. In spite of this you've chosen to believe the translators. So why do you need Biblical references. However, since you insist here are the words of Paul.
1 Timothy 6:13–16 (NKJV): 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
There you have it, straight out of Scripture. The Father "ALONE" has immortality. That means no on else does. No man has immorality. Save Jesus, there are no immortal bodies, now, and there is no immortal human spirit.

Still peddling that same ol' false snake oil. Not one vs. in the Bible says that God cannot impart immortality to people. "Aion" is a noun which occurs 128 times in the N.T. It is said to end only 5 times, Matt 13:39, 40, 24:3, 28:20 and Heb 9:26. "Aion" is NOT the adjective "aionios." Adjectives are descriptive. They are not nouns and they do not have an end or a beginning.

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever[aion]; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.​

This vs. says of the "aion" "there shall be no end." See Revelation 22:5 Game, set, match.

 

[Butch5]

Also, there, I did not disagree (nor agree) with your opinion, but with your habit of thinking that if we have your opinion we have Jesus' words.

Do you realize that adding "your opinion" is the fallacy of Poinsoning the well?

 

[Der Alte]

I really expect more from people who are studied. I really think if you weren't so concerned with winning an argument you could really make progress. We both know that aionios is the adjectiveive form of the noun aion. We both know that the definition of a noun doesn't change when it used as an adjective. So, the above argument is either simply ignorant, which I wouldn't expect from someone who is studied, or disingenuous which I wouldn't expect from a Christian..

Also, the opposite of aionios life is the second death which by nature is permanent so, there'd be no need to say that the death is aionios.

You have made up a false rule, "the definition of a noun doesn't change when it used as an adjective." Please show me any Greek grammar or even an English one which states that. There ain't no such critter. Here is the only rule I can find on noun/adjective agreement. "Adjectives must agree with the nouns they refer to in both number and gender." I will not hold my breath waiting for this nonexistent "rule." It says noting about a noun and its derivative adjective agreeing in meaning.
Jesus said 10 times that "aionios" means "eternal/everlasting, for ever." Luke 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:24, 7:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:57.

 

[Butch5]

Still peddling that same ol' false snake oil. Not one vs. in the Bible says that God cannot impart immortality to people. "Aion" is a noun which occurs 128 times in the N.T. It is said to end only 5 times, Matt 13:39, 40, 24:3, 28:20 and Heb 9:26. "Aion" is NOT the adjective "aionios." Adjectives are descriptive. They are not nouns and they do not have an end or a beginning.

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever[aion]; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. ​

This vs. says of the "aion" "there shall be no end." See Revelation 22:5 Game, set, match.

Ever read the book, 'How to Make Friends and Influence People'? As I've said numerous times, numbers are not how we interpret Scripture. There's a saying, one negative negates any number of positives. If you said, all cars are blue, I only need to present one car that is not blue to disprove your statement. It doesn't matter if you present 1, 10, 100, 1000, or1,000,000 blue cars, if I present a single car that is not blue your statement is negated. Thus the claim that aionios means eternal, is negated by one passage that shows it ends.

However, your statement above that it occurs 128 times and is said to end only 5 times shows that you blatantly dismiss those 5 passages. This is the fallacy known as Cherry Picking.

 

[Der Alte]

Ever read the book, 'How to Make Friends and Influence People'? As I've said numerous times, numbers are not how we interpret Scripture. There's a saying, one negative negates any number of positives. If you said, all cars are blue, I only need to present one car that is not blue to disprove your statement. It doesn't matter if you present 1, 10, 100, 1000, or1,000,000 blue cars, if I present a single car that is not blue your statement is negated. Thus the claim that aionios means eternal, is negated by one passage that shows it ends.
However, your statement above that it occurs 128 times and is said to end only 5 times shows that you blatantly dismiss those 5 passages. This is the fallacy known as Cherry Picking.

Are you familiar with the 212 figures of speech used in the Bible? IOW you can't find a grammar rule anywhere, in any language, which states that an adjective must mean exactly the same thing as the noun from which it is derived. A noun can end an adjective does not.

 

[Butch5]

Are you familiar with the 212 figures of speech used in the Bible? IOW you can't find a grammar rule anywhere, in any language, which states that an adjective must mean exactly the
same thing as the noun from which it is derived. A noun can end an adjective does not.

You really should give this up. You have no idea what you're talking about.

The movie was over. Over is an sdjective in this sentence that means to end.

I'm not going to keep replying to this nonsense. You're just wasting our time

 

[Butch5]

You have made up a false rule, "the definition of a noun doesn't change when it used as an adjective." Please show me any Greek grammar or even an English one which states that. There ain't no such critter. Here is the only rule I can find on noun/adjective agreement. "Adjectives must agree with the nouns they refer to in both number and gender." I will not hold my breath waiting for this nonexistent "rule." It says noting about a noun and its derivative adjective agreeing in meaning.
Jesus said 10 times that "aionios" means "eternal/everlasting, for ever." Luke 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:24, 7:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:57.

No, you're the one claiming that aion and aionios mean two different things. So, the onus is on you to prove it. So, let's see your Greek grammars that show they mean differently. Since you only found one rule, (which is surprising since there many in a grammar) I'm guessing we won't be seeing that evidence.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you realize that adding "your opinion" is the fallacy of Poisoning the Well?

My posts were to the point that the logic and assumptions were fallacious. I was not posting my opinion concerning the position proffered.

 

[Der Alte]

No, you're the one claiming that aion and aionios mean two different things. So, the onus is on you to prove it. So, let's see your Greek grammars that show they mean differently. Since you only found one rule, (which is surprising since there many in a grammar) I'm guessing we won't be seeing that evidence.

Show me yours first then I will show you mine. You are the one that made the claim that grammar requires aion and aionios must have the same meaning. tick tock.

 

[Der Alte]

You really should give this up. You have no idea what you're talking about.
The movie was over. Over is an sdjective in this sentence that means to end.
I'm not going to keep replying to this nonsense. You're just wasting our time

Where did the word "over" come from? You can bug out if you want to but I will continue to point out errors in your posts.

 

[Der Alte]

No, you're the one claiming that aion and aionios mean two different things. So, the onus is on you to prove it. So, let's see your Greek grammars that show they mean differently. Since you only found one rule, (which is surprising since there many in a grammar) I'm guessing we won't be seeing that evidence.

The Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich [BDAG] Greek lexicon represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship. The full definition of aionios. Note the 80+ historical sources the scholars consulted in deteremining the meaning of aionios.

αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 a.d.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
① pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).
② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr Fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).
③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατοςB 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]​

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[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33.​