Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Der Alte]

The etymology of a word is not necessarily its meaning in current usage.
The NT adequately demonstrates throughout that its usage of aionios means "eternal."
And that includes the eternal life and eternal (aionios) punishment of Mt 25:46, elsewhere described by Jesus as fire.

Something that ends cannot be eternal.

You got your "facts" mixed up. There is NOT one occurrence of the word "aionios", an adjective, in the NT, where it is said to end. No. Zero. None.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's sad that big have to do this. Here is what you said in post 142.

"So your opinion is Jesus words. You can ignore the meaning and the Bible use of the words, replace them with your opinion, and suddenly (and not before), we have Jesus words?"

My statement was that aion doesn't mean eternity. You pasted Strong's definiton. In the above statement you said "you can ignore the meaning and the Bible use of the words". Telling me I'm ignoring "the definition" of the words, is a tacit admission that you acknowledge that definition as correct. Thus my statement that it is you who are are wrong.

Also, in claiming that what I posted is my "opinion" you commit the incredible ignorance fallacy, as others have. Jesus speaking of the end of the aion is "not", my opinion. It's provable fact.

Also, there, I did not disagree (nor agree) with your opinion, but with your habit of thinking that if we have your opinion we have Jesus' words.

 

[ozso]

Chiming in; I see people giving descriptions, not found in scripture, of what hell is like. I wonder where they got their information from.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Chiming in; I see people giving descriptions, not found in scripture, of what hell is like. I wonder where they got their information from.

Not given as such in Scripture: Some things can be known, others assumed, from such things as the personality of God, God's attributes, and the mode of even this temporal life's sanctification. Also sin, depravity, Godlessness, and the removal of God's restraints and graces upon sinners.

 

[ozso]

Not given as such in Scripture: Some things can be known, others assumed, from such things as the personality of God, God's attributes, and the mode of even this temporal life's sanctification. Also sin, depravity, Godlessness, and the removal of God's restraints and graces upon sinners.

Amazing how many different versions come from that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Amazing how many different versions come from that.

Agreed; at least as many different versions as there are versions of God's personality, attributes et al.

Yet some things can be known anyway, just as some things about God can be known. But yeah, it can be dangerous to be dogmatic or to put too much stock in a concept one gets in their head. But even that is possible about, for example, God's Omnipotence. But I think we can safely assume that he remains Omnipotent in Heaven..., and in control of Hell.

 

[ozso]

Agreed; at least as many different versions as there are versions of God's personality, attributes et al.

Yet some things can be known anyway, just as some things about God can be known. But yeah, it can be dangerous to be dogmatic or to put too much stock in a concept one gets in their head. But even that is possible about, for example, God's Omnipotence. But I think we can safely assume that he remains Omnipotent in Heaven..., and in control of Hell.

I'm talking about things like physical descriptions of hell. "People will be locked in cubes that smell like feet and be forced to watch reruns of Gilligan's Island for eternity." (parody example)

 

[Der Alte]

I'm talking about things like physical descriptions of hell. "People will be locked in cubes that smell like feet and be forced to watch reruns of Gilligan's Island for eternity." (parody example)

While the Biblical belief in a place of fiery, eternal punishment dates back to at least 7-800 years BC. Some descriptions such as the ones in this post are fictitious.

 

[timothyu]

Why would God want to get rid of something forever? Because it is not needed any more. Are people say God is a hoarder?

 

[Techo]

We try to put the concepts of heaven and hell, eternal reward or eternal punishment in term that we can understand as good or evil because that is now how man operates after Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We cannot grasp how God regards these things because He is coming from a completely foreign way of thinking. In trying to understand God’s way of thinking we probably need to think in terms of relationship… particularly the relationship within God himself and then how that is extended in His relationship with man or, in the case of some, the lack of relationship.

I have thought about some of the questions raised and may have some ideas as to why God would want to punish (if he does) people for all eternity. I am, by no means, any sort of great Biblical Scholar so, please, if (or maybe where) you see great gaping holes in my understandings of the matter, jump in and bring more clarity on the subject.

Why would God separate the good and the evil?

It is the love and mercy of God that those people, who have decided that they do not wish to have anything to do with God, get their desire and are separated from Him… and all those who have accepted God into their lives… for eternity.

Why is this God’s mercy?

When Adam and Eve sinned they were afraid of God and hid themselves. (Gen 3:8) For a soul that has not become redeemed by Christ this will be their reaction... fear. When God made offering for them they, in faith for the coming of Christ, were made right with God, within the boundaries of where they were at the time, and were able to maintain fellowship with God (implied by Gen 4:16) at the equivalent of the ‘mercy seat’ (i.e. the gateway into Eden where the Cherubim guarded the way Gen 3:24).

Cain, when his offering was rejected… after he killed Abel… chosen to leave the presence of God and go his own way (Gen 4:16). God did not stop him. Cain was not OK with being close to God’s presence and so had to get far away.

It can be a very scary thing to be face to face with God and not have your sin covered by the blood of Christ. The Children of Israel were taken out of Egypt to go and worship God in the wilderness. They were to be a nation of Priests to the Lord (Gen 19:6) but when God came down onto Mt Sinai they all chickened out. They told Moses to go up into the mountain to met God for them. They were afraid of God and thought they were going to die so put Moses into the hot seat instead of risking it themselves (Exo 20:18-21).

The fear and terror that people have of meeting God face to face, if they have not surrender their life to him, is so great that when Jesus returns they will be pleading the mountains to fall on them to hide them from the face of God (Rev 6:15&16).

So, rather than subjecting the spirit of those who have rejected God to be constantly faced with His presence, God has created a great chasm between Him and where those people have been (or will be sent) sent (Luk 16:26).

Why would they be sent to a lake of fire?

Not got a lot I can say on this one. I suspect it is a concession by God since, having rejected God, to be kept in His presence for eternity would be a far greater torment than being in a lake of fire. We are told that our God is a consuming fire (Heb12:29). This was seen, in some measure, by the Children or Israel at Mt Sinai (Exo 20:18). I’m pretty sure there are other references like this but I’ve not gone looking for them yet. Perhaps there is some element of fire where ever the New Heaven and Earth does not exist... a devil inspired mimic of being in the presence of God.

I did find Rev 20:15 “And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.” to be an interesting passage. I guess further study could revolve around the nature of the lake of fire and what it means to be, or not be, in the Lamb’s Book of Life

Why would they be there for eternity?

In the new heaven and new earth there is no time… so we, and they, exist for all eternity. Thank you Mark Quayle for making that point (#86)... it saves me having to make some of those observations. Before God made heaven and Earth there was no way in which time had any meaning. No night or day, no earth revolving around the sun. Time is only relevant within our current realm. When the end is come God is going to remove heaven and earth (Mat 24: 35, Rev 20:11, 21:1). In the New Jerusalem there is no need of Sun or Moon and there is no night because it is lit by the Glory of God so where would time be referenced from?

 

[timothyu]

"We try to put the concepts of heaven and hell, eternal reward or eternal punishment in term that we can understand as good or evil because that is now how man operates after Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We cannot grasp how God regards these things because He is coming from a completely foreign way of thinking"

Exactly

 

[Der Alte]

We try to put the concepts of heaven and hell, eternal reward or eternal punishment in term that we can understand as good or evil because that is now how man operates after Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We cannot grasp how God regards these things because He is coming from a completely foreign way of thinking. In trying to understand God’s way of thinking we probably need to think in terms of relationship… particularly the relationship within God himself and then how that is extended in His relationship with man or, in the case of some, the lack of relationship.

I have thought about some of the questions raised and may have some ideas as to why God would want to punish (if he does) people for all eternity. I am, by no means, any sort of great Biblical Scholar so, please, if (or maybe where) you see great gaping holes in my understandings of the matter, jump in and bring more clarity on the subject.

Why would God separate the good and the evil?

It is the love and mercy of God that those people, who have decided that they do not wish to have anything to do with God, get their desire and are separated from Him… and all those who have accepted God into their lives… for eternity.

Why is this God’s mercy?

When Adam and Eve sinned they were afraid of God and hid themselves. (Gen 3:8) For a soul that has not become redeemed by Christ this will be their reaction... fear. When God made offering for them they, in faith for the coming of Christ, were made right with God, within the boundaries of where they were at the time, and were able to maintain fellowship with God (implied by Gen 4:16) at the equivalent of the ‘mercy seat’ (i.e. the gateway into Eden where the Cherubim guarded the way Gen 3:24).

Cain, when his offering was rejected… after he killed Abel… chosen to leave the presence of God and go his own way (Gen 4:16). God did not stop him. Cain was not OK with being close to God’s presence and so had to get far away.

It can be a very scary thing to be face to face with God and not have your sin covered by the blood of Christ. The Children of Israel were taken out of Egypt to go and worship God in the wilderness. They were to be a nation of Priests to the Lord (Gen 19:6) but when God came down onto Mt Sinai they all chickened out. They told Moses to go up into the mountain to met God for them. They were afraid of God and thought they were going to die so put Moses into the hot seat instead of risking it themselves (Exo 20:18-21).

The fear and terror that people have of meeting God face to face, if they have not surrender their life to him, is so great that when Jesus returns they will be pleading the mountains to fall on them to hide them from the face of God (Rev 6:15&16).

So, rather than subjecting the spirit of those who have rejected God to be constantly faced with His presence, God has created a great chasm between Him and where those people have been (or will be sent) sent (Luk 16:26).

Why would they be sent to a lake of fire?

Not got a lot I can say on this one. I suspect it is a concession by God since, having rejected God, to be kept in His presence for eternity would be a far greater torment than being in a lake of fire. We are told that our God is a consuming fire (Heb12:29). This was seen, in some measure, by the Children or Israel at Mt Sinai (Exo 20:18). I’m pretty sure there are other references like this but I’ve not gone looking for them yet. Perhaps there is some element of fire where ever the New Heaven and Earth does not exist... a devil inspired mimic of being in the presence of God.

I did find Rev 20:15 “And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.” to be an interesting passage. I guess further study could revolve around the nature of the lake of fire and what it means to be, or not be, in the Lamb’s Book of Life

Why would they be there for eternity?

In the new heaven and new earth there is no time… so we, and they, exist for all eternity. Thank you Mark Quayle for making that point (#86)... it saves me having to make some of those observations. Before God made heaven and Earth there was no way in which time had any meaning. No night or day, no earth revolving around the sun. Time is only relevant within our current realm. When the end is come God is going to remove heaven and earth (Mat 24: 35, Rev 20:11, 21:1). In the New Jerusalem there is no need of Sun or Moon and there is no night because it is lit by the Glory of God so where would time be referenced from?

Why, eternal punishment? Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
What did Jesus mean by "aionios" translated "eternal."

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

 

[Der Alte]

Matthew 25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
This simply states that the second death unlike the first will be permanent/everlasting. No more salvation. Only the righteous shall receive life eternal, not the damned (they are aware no more.

Jesus is quoted as referring to death 17 times. When Jesus meant death he did not say punishment. The rich man, Luke 16, was dead and in hades and he was conscious and aware. Jesus did NOT use fictitious events to explain the gospel. All 5 ECF who quoted/referred to the rich man and Lazarus considered it factual.

 

[timothyu]

Jesus did NOT use fictitious events to explain the gospel.

Right... parables

 

[Der Alte]

Right... parables

Lazarus and the rich man is NOT a parable. All 5 ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual; Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian 2x, Cyprian and Methodius
Parable derives from the Greek word Parabole' which means to lay or throw beside. Something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known e.g. "the kingdom of heaven is like unto." There is no such comparison in Lazarus and the rich man. There are approx 212 figures of speech used in the Bible Lazaruas and the rich man might be one of the others but it ain't a parable.

 

[timothyu]

Sounds like a case of man's self justification either way.

 

[ozso]

Why, eternal punishment? Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
What did Jesus mean by "aionios" translated "eternal."

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

Right, but the part you don't like is:

The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40

Whatever you do to help one person, puts you among the righteous who go away to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)

 

[Der Alte]

Right, but the part you don't like is:
The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40
Whatever you do to help one person, puts you among the righteous who go away to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)

Sorry amigo that ain't what it says. Everything Jesus said elsewhere cannot be ignored based on this one vs. Jesus is not going to forgive a life long sinner just because that sinner helped one person one time. See e.g. Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Der Alte]

Sounds like a case of man's self justification either way.

Is this supposed to mean something?

 

[ozso]

Sorry amigo that ain't what it says.

What does it say then?

The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40

Everything Jesus said elsewhere cannot be ignored based on this one vs. Jesus is not going to forgive a life long sinner just because that sinner helped one person one time. See e.g. Matthew 7:21-23

Red herring deflection from dealing with:

The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40