Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[JulieB67]

please explain to me how Rev 21:4 says "no more death" but vs. 8 says eight groups of the unrighteous are thrown into the lake of fire which is still called the second death?

I already did. I wasn't even going to post to you because we've already debated this subject. I even knew you would post Rev 4 and 8.

I explained to you that Christ brings us back to John in that moment and states, write for these things are true... and it is done...

I choose to believe Christ once again when he states it's done. You obviously don't.

He goes on and explains what will happen to those that overcome and those that don't.

John is then taken away by one of the angels.

We go from John still seeing/given the vision in verse 4 to Christ on the throne in verse 5 stating write for these words are true......and it is done..... That's a different moment altogether than verse 4. He's back in his present with Christ at that moment before the angel takes him away. Christ then tells him what will happen to those that overcome and to those that don't. You can't see this context for some reason. You still think John is still seeing a vision of what's happening even though Christ states it's done.

You have developed an explanation that certain things happened at different times not chronologically as John has written them.

No, it's just reading comprehension. If Christ states it's done. I believe that. And I know then when he states what will happen to those who overcome and to those who don't is simply to those who would later read the Revelation that John has written through Christ. Judgement Day has not happened yet.

 

[Michie]

Haydock's Catholic Commentary

Revelation 21

Verse 1

New, by their form and qualities, but not by their substance. --- The first heaven and first earth was passed away: being changed, not as to their substance, but in their qualities. (Challoner)

Verse 2

From the seventh verse of the foregoing chapter, begins as it were the third part of the Apocalypse containing the coming of antichrist, the great day of judgment, the punishment of the wicked, and the eternal happiness of God’s elect in heaven, or in the celestial Jerusalem, which St. John describes in this chapter as if it were like a large city, beautified and enriched with gold and all manner of precious stones, &c. (Witham)

Coming down from God out of heaven. By the city we must understand its citizens, the Angels and saints. (Witham) --- Justice, innocence, the good works of the saints, are the ornaments of the inhabitants of this new Jerusalem, the Church triumphant. If the world of the old Adam has appeared so beautiful, so magnificent, good God, what will be the riches of that which is made for Jesus Christ, the second Adam, and for his members! O Jesus! Father of the world to come, render us worthy of this new and everlasting world, and give us a disgust, a mortal hatred, for that which perishes, and which is the cause of our perdition.

Verse 3

Behold the tabernacle of God with men, inasmuch as God’s elect shall there dwell with him for ever and ever. (Witham)

Verse 6

It is done. The state of Christ’s Church on earth, and in this world, is now finished; and the time is come to reward the good, and to punish the wicked in the lake burning with fire and brimstone, in hell, with the devils for all eternity. (Witham) --- This living water is God himself, of which the saints shall be inebriated at the source; i.e. in God himself. Enviable moment, when all the designs of God upon Jesus Christ and upon his Church will be accomplished: but how little thought of now! And how can we hope to be inebriated at this source of God above, if we do not aspire after it whilst we are in this dreary desert here below? He who begins and finishes gratuitously here below the work of our faith, crowns it still more liberally in heaven.

Verse 9

I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb: all the Church triumphant in heaven. (Witham)

Verse 16

The city is situate four-square;[1] and by what follows, so as to be a perfect square, though everything that is quadrangular is not always a square, or perfect square. (Witham)

===============================

[BIBLIOGRAPHY]

In quadro, Greek: tetragonos, quadrangularis.

Verse 17

The measure of a man, which is of an Angel.[2] This seems, without doubt, the sense of it. (Witham)

===============================

[BIBLIOGRAPHY]

Mensura hominis, quæ est Angeli; Greek: metron anthropou, o estin aggelou.

====================

Verse 22

No temple in it. No need of a temple for divine worship, where God is in such a perfect manner present to all the blessed, where nothing can distract or divert their souls from endless adorations, praises, &c. (Witham)

Verse 23

Needeth not sun nor moon, where there is no vicissitude or succession of day and night, the divine brightness always shining to them. (Witham)

Verse 24

The kings of the earth shall bring their glory; the elect, of all states and conditions, shall now be exalted like kings, or rather infinitely above the glory that we can imagine of any kings in this world. (Witham)

Verse 27

There shall not enter it any thing defiled. This is what we ought always to remember and have in our minds. (Witham)

 

[Michie]

No matter what adversity or sacrifice Christians may endure, they will in the end triumph over Satan and his forces because of their fidelity to Christ the victor. This is the enduring message of the book; it is a message of hope and consolation and challenge for all who dare to believe.

 

[Michie]

Commentary on the Book of Revelation, Chapter 21:

We return to the marriage imagery of chapter 19 as the Bride of Christ appears in a recreated heavens and earth. She is presented as a new Jerusalem, perfect in physical structure and built out of precious materials. She lacks the focal point of the first Jerusalem: the Temple to God. This place of worship no longer exists because God is everywhere, available to all who are able to enter the city. The removal of sea and night symbolize the removal of all chaos, fear, and evil. The descriptions of this new earth and heavens fulfills many prophecies of Isaiah and bring comfort, encouragement, and hope (e.g. Isaiah 25:7-8, 42:9, 43:19, 54:11-12, 55:1, 62:5, 65:11, 65:18). God Himself promises that in this place there will be no tears, pain, or death; there will be the fountain of the water of life; and there will be no temptations nor sin. God, the Alpha and Omega (1:8) who makes all things new, will have completed His work, restoring His children to a type of Eden in a perfect covenant of love (see Isaiah 62:1-5; Hosea 2:18-20).



The Book of Revelation, Chapter 21:

The New Heaven and the New Earth

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a great voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; 4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”
5 And he who sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. 7 He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Vision of the New Jerusalem

9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed; 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he who talked to me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its breadth; and he measured the city with his rod, twelve thousand stadia; its length and breadth and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits by a man’s measure, that is, an angel’s. 18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every jewel; the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.
22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates shall never be shut by day—and there shall be no night there; 26 they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 21

www.dioceseoflansing.org

 

[timothyu]

Is it an election for leader or do we have to play the game choosing the rules of one or the other while here? Those who choose and act right while here will find a seat in the Kingdom where the Adversary and it's followers who chose to continue to act in it's ways will no longer be allowed to reside within.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Where is the eternal stress after execution, as in everlasting punishment (Mt 25:46)?

1. Sorry, where are you getting “eternal stress” from?

2. My point was that capital punishment is punishment nonetheless even though the person no longer exists.

 

[Clare73]

1. Sorry, where are you getting “eternal stress” from?

Mt 25:46.

2. My point was that capital punishment is punishment nonetheless even though the person no longer exists.

 

[Der Alte]

1. Sorry, where are you getting “eternal stress” from?
2. My point was that capital punishment is punishment nonetheless even though the person no longer exists.

That ain't the way at least one ECF understood "eternal punishment."

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho“‘
Chap IV Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’​

 

[timothyu]

I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’

If you have been warned there will be no second life but only second death then one is well aware (conscious) of the punishment.

 

[Der Alte]

If you have been warned there will be no second life but only second death then one is well aware (conscious) of the punishment.

That ain't what Justin Martyr said,

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho“‘
Chap IV Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’​

 

[timothyu]

That ain't what Justin Martyr said,

Doesn't make him right

 

[Der Alte]

Doesn't make him right

You got any ECF who contradict Justin Martyr?
30 minutes later Edited to Add

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V Chap. XXVII. — 2. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these [good things] is also eternal and never-ending.
Polycarp - Epistle Concering Martyrdom Chap XI But Polycarp said, “Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why tarriest thou? Bring forth what thou wilt.”
The Epistle of Barnabas. Chap. XX.
But the way of darkness is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, murder, rapine, haughtiness, transgression, deceit, malice, self-sufficiency, poisoning, magic, avarice, want of the fear of God.
Clement Exhortation to the Heathen. Chap X And you know not that, of all truths, this is the truest, that the good and godly shall obtain the good reward, inasmuch as they held goodness in high esteem; while, on the other hand, the wicked shall receive meet punishment. … For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
Address of Tatian to the Greeks. Chap. XIII. — Theory of the Soul’s Immortality.
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal.37 Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
Tertullian - Ad Nationes Book 1 Chap VII It guarantees eternal life to such as follow and observe it; on the other hand, it threatens with the eternal punishment of an unending fire those who are profane and hostile; while to both classes alike is preached a resurrection from the dead.​

 

[timothyu]

Original thinkers were they?

 

[Der Alte]

Original thinkers were they?

I like that snide reply when a post doesn't fit your expectations.

 

[timothyu]

I like that snide reply when a post doesn't fit your expectations.

Nothing snide about it. Most of the world never advances because they are all to willing to not think for themselves.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Mt 25:46.

You had asked me (emphasis added), “Where is the eternal stress after execution, as in everlasting punishment (Mt 25:46)?”

I asked in turn, “Sorry, where are you getting ‘eternal stress’ from?”

And you replied by citing Matt 25:46 once again, as if simply restating your case is sufficient to make your case.

If you do not care to tell me, that's fine. I never really expect cogent arguments from the ECT camp anyway, so I’m not really surprised by their absence.

To make my question clear to the readers, here is that passage:

“And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
​

I ask you, readers: Do you see anything about “eternal stress” in that verse about eternal punishment? No, me neither. And I can’t think of how to make my interlocutor see that she has not answered my question. So, I guess that’s that.

 

[Der Alte]

You had asked me (emphasis added), “Where is the eternal stress after execution, as in everlasting punishment (Mt 25:46)?”
I asked in turn, “Sorry, where are you getting ‘eternal stress’ from?”
And you replied by citing Matt 25:46 once again, as if simply restating your case is sufficient to make your case.
If you do not care to tell me, that's fine. I never really expect cogent arguments from the ECT camp anyway, so I’m not really surprised by their absence.
To make my question clear to the readers, here is that passage:

“And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

I ask you, readers: Do you see anything about “eternal stress” in that verse about eternal punishment? No, me neither. And I can’t think of how to make my interlocutor see that she has not answered my question. So, I guess that’s that.

No, that ain't that. Jesus is quoted as saying death 18 times. When Jesus meant death, He said death. In Matt 25:46 Jesus did NOT say "eternal death." Death was known to last eternally. Punishment which endures throughout eternity would include "eternal stress." As Justin Martyr said "they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment."

 

[Clare73]

You had asked me (emphasis added), “Where is the eternal stress after execution, as in everlasting punishment (Mt 25:46)?”
I asked in turn, “Sorry, where are you getting ‘eternal stress’ from?”
And you replied by citing Matt 25:46 once again, as if simply restating your case is sufficient to make your case.
If you do not care to tell me, that's fine. I never really expect cogent arguments from the ECT camp anyway, so I’m not really surprised by their absence.

To make my question clear to the readers, here is that passage:

“And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

I ask you, readers: Do you see anything about “eternal stress” in that verse about eternal punishment? No, me neither. And I can’t think of how to make my interlocutor see that she has not answered my question. So, I guess that’s that.

You're cute!

As the eternal life is experienced unendingly, so the punishment (separation from God) will be experienced unendingly.

The damned do not get a pass of annihilation, nor just a bop on the head.

 

[Der Alte]

If you have been warned there will be no second life but only second death then one is well aware (conscious) of the punishment.

Being conscious of a pending punishment which has not yet occurred is not the same as being conscious of that punishment as it is occurring. As Justin Martyr said "they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment."

 

[timothyu]

Being conscious of a pending punishment which has not yet occurred is not the same as being conscious of that punishment as it is occurring. As Justin Martyr said "they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment."

Being hanged, electrocuted, drugged, shot, beheaded, processed fooded, all are just as conscious of punishment and death as a resurrected person headed for annihilation in the second death. Consciousness fades for all.