Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Archaeopteryx]

I commend your naturalistic approach to the universe. But at the point at which you admit the universe has to be the way it is, free of miracles that could change the nature of the universe, or a heaven that throws out the rules the universe works under, it seems to me that the thing that caused the universe is hardly what most people would consider a god...

The universe had to be this way because God had to create it this way. If God had to create this way then it makes little sense to call him a "designer" or "fine tuner". The universe isn't "fine tuned"; it had to be this way and could not have been any other way because God couldn't have "tuned" it any other way.

 

[Oafman]

No such thing as a multiverse.

Have you proven there isn't? Surely you're into assertions being considered correct until disproven?

If there were seperate universes, what would be between them?

Strings?

If there were nothing between them, they would all be part of one single universe.

I don't follow

If there were something between them, they would all be part of one great continuity and thus still one single universe.

Which could perhaps be called 'a multiverse'?

Claims and notions of a multiverse are sloppy thinking (usually hidden behind arcane nonsense that nobody understands but which relies on an "emperor's new clothes" approach).

Sloppy thinkers like Stephen Hawking are advocates of the multiverse. And for my bolding, I think you're projecting. The fact that you don't have an understanding of this topic, (and the fact that something along the lines of a multiverse is required to explain what has been observed), does not mean that nobody else does. To be quite so dismissive, from a position of ignorance, of what some of the world's most intelligent people have devoted their professional lives to, seems somewhat blasé.

There is this universe, and this is the way it is (and has to be) in order to be consistent and thus real.

What we see is not consistent with what we know. It needs to be explained, and people are trying to work it out. For centuries, the religious have told us we already know everything, and they have been consistently proven to be wrong. We have much yet to learn about the fundamental nature of the universe, and the multiverse is a worthy hypothesis to explore.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And being the mind that shapes events is being their designer. You don't need Freewill to be a designer; you just have to be the mind that shapes the event.

Interesting. So God doesn't have free will?

 

[Inkfingers]

I don't follow

Evidently. Hence the rest of your post.

 

[Inkfingers]

Interesting. So God doesn't have free will?

No.

Nothing does.

Freewill does not exist at all. It is a misapprehension born of ignorance and fed with vanity. Everything acts in accord with its nature; and that includes God as well.

 

[Oafman]

Evidently. Hence the rest of your post.

Perhaps you could humour me, and expand on why you believe that universes with 'nothing between them' would be 'part of one single universe'.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The universe had to be this way because God had to create it this way. If God had to create this way then it makes little sense to call him a "designer" or "fine tuner". The universe isn't "fine tuned"; it had to be this way and could not have been any other way because God couldn't have "tuned" it any other way.

This also brings up the issue of whether this supposed god had knowledge of what the universe would become once he kicked over the first domino, so to speak.

 

[Inkfingers]

Perhaps you could humour me, and expand on why you believe that universes with 'nothing between them' would be 'part of one single universe'.

I already did, in very simple and straight-forward language; but although I can lead you to water, I cannot make you drink.

 

[Oafman]

I already did, in very simple and straight-forward language; but although I can lead you to water, I cannot make you drink.

You didn't explain, it, you just asserted it. It's up there in black and white.

 

[Inkfingers]

You didn't explain, it, you just asserted it. It's up there in black and white.

No, I made an inductive statement. If you do not know the difference between that and an assertion it illustrates yet more your confusion and ignorance on this matter.

Be less of the oaf and more of the man.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

This also brings up the issue of whether this supposed god had knowledge of what the universe would become once he kicked over the first domino, so to speak.

You guys can be entertained for hours by assuming to know what God did. Maybe that time would be better spent in prayer asking God to enlighten you to what He did actually do.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You guys can be entertained for hours by assuming to know what God did. Maybe that time would be better spent in prayer asking God to enlighten you to what He did actually do.

If you'll re-read what you're responding to, it's obvious that I wasn't assuming to know anything.

And I've told you once already, I was a Christian for many years. I've had my fair share of prayers.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

If you'll re-read what you're responding to, it's obvious that I wasn't assuming to know anything.

And I've told you once already, I was a Christian for many years. I've had my fair share of prayers.

Well I am offering to pray for you. No as a matter of fact, I will pray for you. That God shows you the answers to your questions.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Well I am offering to pray for you. No as a matter of fact, I will pray for you. That God shows you the answers to your questions.

Thanks for the concern.

 

[J0hnSm1th]

1. So you don´t believe in miracles?

I do believe in miracles, but not in ones that defy the impossible.

2. Correct me if I am wrong, but I used to be under the impression that - in Christian doctrine - God was the very guy who created (the framework of) reality.

Indeed. But the reality we have is the best one possible. If there were any better, our benevolent God would have picked that one.

No other design is possible? That's interesting. So God was constrained? He didn't really design this universe with any particular purpose in mind. He didn't fine-tune it.

A purpose and outcome were exactly what he had in mind. The purpose was paramount. I imagine he continues to fine tune it in accordance with his Plan.

He had to design it as is and couldn't have designed it any other way. That's not like any designer we know of, who usually has some creative freedom.

God had the freedom to choose the design which was most compatible with his goal. He is benevolent and has an outcome in mind. Therefore the universe we have is the best fit.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Alright, which thing would you show persistent faith in, which would solve all the problems of suffering once it was culminated? What act would you persist at to do this?

I don't show persistent faith in anything. I think having faith based beliefs is fundamentally dishonest.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Unless you did it deliberately for moral reasons?

Then it would still be a perfect design, meaning that the design worked out exactly as god intended it to.

If god made Adam and Eve knowing or with the intention that they'd fall into sin, then they'd still be a perfect design.... they did what they were supposed to do.

However, it's also unjust for god to punish them under those circumstances, since he made them to do the things he's punishing them for.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Life will always have conflicting interests; if there were no predators, you would simply complain about other 'unfairnessess' instead; because such cannot be avoided.

Unfairness is not always evil though.

And humans working on photosynthesis cannot exist - it would not provide enough energy for the brain.

If you are god, you can make photosynthesis work effectively enough to power a human being.... or an elephant for that matter.

The universe is the way it is because this is what an internally consistent universe looks like; this is what the laws of physics and mathematics needed to make such a universe looks like. And those laws of physics etc are what are needed for a consistent universe.

Sure, I'll agree with that.

Your lack of comprehension of that, and belief in a magical "could have been other" does not change this. Nor does it offer substantial counter-argument. The answer has been given to you; instead of being driven by a need to "win" or "be a skeptic", rattling off answers in an game of internet ping-pong, take time to consider what I have said to you.

Lack of comprehension? I agree with your statement, I just see no reason why you'd ever jump to the conclusion that an intelligent being created it all.

 

[Dave Ellis]

He did, the animals ate herbs before the fall and man fruit, death came through Adam.

How do you know that?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Lol so what? As if making a woman from a rib makes sense or walking on water or Nebukadnesar turning into an animal or a speaking donkey.

You're catching on!