Why would God create a flawed creation?

[FireDragon76]

Meaning that he knowingly created Satan, knowingly engineered the circumstances that would lead to mankind's fall, and knowingly created certain individuals who would ultimately be destined for Hell. The question then is this: why would an omnibenevolent God knowingly do all this?

Something tells me knowing the answer still would not persuade you to believe.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Something tells me knowing the answer still would not persuade you to believe.

Do you know the answer?

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you know the answer?

Yes, God did those things to create the best possible world.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Yes, God did those things to create the best possible world.

A logical answer would have helped. Your answer is completely nonsensical. It's like saying that Kim Jong Un keeps the citizens of North Korea living in hellish conditions to create the best possible society.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[bhsmte]

No He can't just do what He wants here. God can't do anything on earth unless His people pray. He wants to heal everyone, but He needs His people to step out and heal people in His Name and someone wanting to receive His healing.

Do you think there is any praying going on for the 9 million children who die each year before the age of five and many in suffering until death?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, God did those things to create the best possible world.

How do you know that?

Are you suggesting that the best possible world is a world where God knowingly creates an agent of evil (Satan), knowingly engineers the circumstances of mankind's fall from grace, and knowingly creates certain individuals who are destined for Hell? Are you suggesting that not doing those things would have resulted in a worser situation? This is the best we can hope for from an all-powerful, all-knowing, and crucially, all good, god?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Do you think there is any praying going on for the 9 million children who die each year before the age of five and many in suffering until death?

I think that regardless of what terrible things occur in this world, we all know that it is because of human beings being selfish.

What I mean by that is that God created a self-sestaining universe and planet. There is enough on this planet for all, but there are those who have too much that then do not compensate for those in need. I believe that we do produce enough food for all of us, it's more of a matter of who has what is produced and who does not.

Even back in Jesus day, much of what He talked about was to love each other as ourselves and to help the poor, the widows and the orphans. Jesus went so far as to tell us that what you do to one of these, you do unto me.

I think sometimes we use God as an easy scape goat, but the truth is that God WILL let man do what he/she wants to do. God created man in His image with free will and the power to both create love and to destroy. From the beginning it has been this way. When God did intercede during the days of Noah because the world was so corrupt, God promised that He would never again destroy the earth by flood.

I think human beings need to take responsibility for what we do. The Bible even tells us that God will not intercede again until the end of days.

 

[Messy]

Do you think there is any praying going on for the 9 million children who die each year before the age of five and many in suffering until death?

Not enough and most christians don't even know they have the authority to heal the sick. If Jesus could function like He did when He was on earth through every believer there would be much more believers who did the same and a lot less suffering. But still there will be people who don't want Him and start a war.

Why Pray?

Written by Kenneth E. Hagin Hits: 1978
God is not ruling in this world. He is not ruling on the earth. Thank God, He will one day! But right now His will is not being carried out on the earth—except in the lives of those who surrender to Him.
Years ago I read a statement John Wesley made and it stayed with me. Wesley said, "It seems God is limited by our prayer life—that He can do nothing for humanity unless someone asks Him."
A while later, in 1949, I was reading after another writer who made that same statement. But this fellow added, "Why this is, I do not know."
We Need To Know More About It
"Why doesn't he know?" I asked. Then I found out I didn't know either.
Yet if Wesley's statement is correct—and it seems to be as you read through the Bible—then we who are to pray should know more about it.
If God wants to do something for humanity, I thought I should begin to examine the Bible to find out why God cannot do anything unless somebody asks Him.
I found the answer through study of God's Word.
You see, though some people have built up "spiritual air castles" that God is running everything in this world, He is not.
During the Vietnam War a nationally syndicated newspaper columnist began one column by stating that he was not a Christian. He also said that he was not an atheist because the atheist says there is no God.
"I suppose you would classify me an agnostic," he wrote. "The agnostic says there may be a God, but if there is, I don't know it. Actually, I am prone to believe there is a Supreme Being. I do not believe that everything here just happened. I believe there is a Creator somewhere.
"But I have never read the Bible. I do not attend church. One reason I don't is that what the Christians say about God doesn't agree with what I think a Creator should be, nor with what I can see of Him in nature. Even ministers say, 'God has everything under control. He's running everything.' Well, if He is, He sure has things in a mess. People are killing each other. Little children are dying. Little children are hungry. Women are suffering. There are wars everywhere. If God has everything under control, do you mean God is running those wars?"
Even an unregenerate columnist knew that wasn't right.

A Change Of Dominion
God is not ruling in this world. He is not ruling on the earth. Thank God, He will one day! But right now His will is not being carried out on the earth—except in the lives of those who surrender to Him.
That is easy to see if you will accept what the Bible says. The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). It is obvious that His will concerning the salvation of all men is not being carried out.
When individuals accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, it is carried out in their lives. But if God were running things and pushing His will off on people—and since He is not willing that any should perish—then it is logical to say that He would make everybody get saved today and then go directly into the Millennium tomorrow.
But that's not the way it works.
As I examined God's Word for the "why" behind John Wesley's statement, I saw a truth I had never seen before, though I had been in the ministry many years.
As I asked the Lord about it, He said to me, "Go back to the Book of Beginnings."
I knew He meant the Book of Genesis. I reread it. I had read it many times. I had heard it taught as a Sunday School boy. But this time, I saw it in a different light.
I saw that God made the world and the fullness thereof. He made His man, Adam. Then He said, "Adam, I give you dominion over all the work of my hands" (Gen. 1:26-27; Ps. 8:6).
God did not say, "I am going to dominate through you."
He said, "I give you dominion over all the work of my hands." Therefore Adam had dominion upon this earth and in this world. He was originally, in a sense, the god (small "g") of this world. But Satan came and lied to Adam. Adam committed high treason and sold out to Satan. When that happened, Satan became the god of this world.
Second Corinthians 4:4 calls Satan "the god of this world." As such, he has dominion. Where? In this world.
He will have that dominion and remain the god of this world until Adam's lease runs out. God cannot legally and justly move in and take away that dominion from the devil. The devil has dominion here. He has a legal right because he has Adam's lease. And God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.
That is why prayer is so important.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

If he is all good, why would he? He's devised a punishment for those who choose wrongly, and he already knows exactly who is going to choose wrongly. It isn't even a "test". He knows the outcome with certainty.



What would be gained from even asking them the question? He already knows the answer. He knew the answer before he even created them.

he gave free will, free will has to be the right to chose to what ever you please, if you do not give them that choice then they have no free will.

I do not believe he creates people to believe, he could have but he does not, creating with the will to chose to believe or not limits his power over his creation by his choice.

as I said all decisions have consequences, to live with God is made by believing in him, to chose to not believe on him is to chose eternity without God.

did the judge who sends the man to jail or for a death sentence responsible for the crime that was committed?

 

[bhsmte]

Not enough and most christians don't even know they have the authority to heal the sick. If Jesus could function like He did when He was on earth through every believer there would be much more believers who did the same and a lot less suffering. But still there will be people who don't want Him and start a war.

How could you know the content and quality of other people's prayers?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

he gave free will, free will has to be the right to chose to what ever you please, if you do not give them that choice then they have no free will.

I do not believe he creates people to believe, he could have but he does not, creating with the will to chose to believe or not limits his power over his creation by his choice.

as I said all decisions have consequences, to live with God is made by believing in him, to chose to not believe on him is to chose eternity without God.

did the judge who sends the man to jail or for a death sentence responsible for the crime that was committed?

You keep missing the point, as this analogy shows. The judge in this scenario presumably isn't omniscient; he didn't know that the person committing the crime would, in fact, commit the crime. Knowing for certain that he would commit a crime offers the judge the opportunity to prevent the crime from ever eventuating. Does preventing a crime from happening violate the free will of a would-be criminal? If that's the case, then why do we even have laws and people who enforce laws? Aren't we violating people's free will to behave however they want to?

 

[Messy]

How could you know the content and quality of other people's prayers?

They pray fervently in South Korea, half of the country is saved. Here if you have a church of 30 people 6 attend the prayer meeting once a week and one falls asleep during it. Jonathan Edwards prayed all day long with groanings, the woman he hired his apartment from thought he was nuts, yet Wales got saved.

The effect of prayer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBvxWl7jXr0

 

[bhsmte]

They pray fervently in South Korea, half of the country is saved. Here if you have a church of 30 people 6 attend the prayer meeting once a week and one falls asleep during it. Jonathan Edwards prayed all day long with groanings, the woman he hired his apartment from thought he was nuts, yet Wales got saved.

The effect of prayer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBvxWl7jXr0

You didn't answer my question.

9 million children die each year and many in an agonizing death before the age of five.

How do you know the quality and quantity of the prayer coming form the parents and families of these children who die suffering?

 

[Messy]

You didn't answer my question.

9 million children die each year and many in an agonizing death before the age of five.

How do you know the quality and quantity of the prayer coming form the parents and families of these children who die suffering?

Oh okay, maybe they don't even believe or they're christian and don't know how to pray. John G. Lake first saw half of his family die, because they prayed, but believed it was God's will. When he found out which authority he had and that God wanted to heal and it was a lie that it wasn't His will, thousands were healed.

 

[bhsmte]

Oh okay, maybe they don't even believe or they're christian and don't know how to pray. John G. Lake first saw half of his family die, because they prayed, but believed it was God's will. When he found out which authority he had and that God wanted to heal and it was a lie that it wasn't His will, thousands were healed.

Does that explanation really work for you?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

he gave free will, free will has to be the right to chose to what ever you please, if you do not give them that choice then they have no free will.

An omnipotent god could have created humans with the free will to choose to cause suffering, but without the propensity to cause suffering.

It seems like I keep repeating myself...

 

[Messy]

Does that explanation really work for you?

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have come back. If it was all His will and set up and He can do something, but doesn't want to I wouldnt follow Him.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

An omnipotent god could have created humans with the free will to choose to cause suffering, but without the propensity to cause suffering.

It seems like I keep repeating myself...

It seems like you are grasping at straws because God CAN/COULD create what ever He wants and wanted. Someone could come up with 100 scenarios.

The Bible really is about what a Christian CAN do with their life. So many think it's a do not do this, do not do that and it does have some of that, but most of the Word is about living a spiritual life.

Those who are not God's do not understand spiritual.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It seems like you are grasping at straws because God CAN/COULD create what ever He wants and wanted. Someone could come up with 100 scenarios.

The Bible really is about what a Christian CAN do with their life. So many think it's a do not do this, do not do that and it does have some of that, but most of the Word is about living a spiritual life.

Those who are not God's do not understand spiritual.

So you don't have any problem calling your god "good" when he could have created the world without suffering?

Because that doesn't jive with any definition of "good" that I would accept. What kind of mental gymnastics must someone perform to come up with the conclusion that this universe was created by an omnibenevolent, omnipotent god...

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

You keep missing the point, as this analogy shows. The judge in this scenario presumably isn't omniscient; he didn't know that the person committing the crime would, in fact, commit the crime. Knowing for certain that he would commit a crime offers the judge the opportunity to prevent the crime from ever eventuating. Does preventing a crime from happening violate the free will of a would-be criminal? If that's the case, then why do we even have laws and people who enforce laws? Aren't we violating people's free will to behave however they want to?

what difference would it make if the judge knew he would commit the crime?