Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Dave Ellis]

If you insist on your definition of perfection, then similarly, I can say that being incomplete in knowledge of what good and evil are is also under any definition a flaw. In other words, a world where there is no possibility of corruption or no knowledge of the difference between good and evil is also a flawed world.

You're conflating a flawed world with a flawed design.

If the design was intended to keep us ignorant of good and evil, and we stayed ignorant of good and evil, then the design would be working perfectly as intended.

If the intent was to keep us ignorant of good and evil, and we gained knowledge of it, then there was a flaw in the design. It did not work as intended.

When god created things, he must have had some sort of plan in mind as you always need a plan in place when designing something. If this world is what he intended, then his design was perfect. If this world is not what was intended, there was a flaw, it's inescapable.

What makes something perfect is its knowledge of both good and evil, but the will to choose good instead of evil. This is what defines God's nature, and what He desires His created beings to be like. Inability of corruption robs His creation of the complete knowledge He has of good and evil.

Knowledge of good and evil is not a requirement for perfection.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Yet another attempt at twisting the Bible. Do you not see the contrast in that sentence? Peace is contrasted with evil, just like light with darkness. Then clearly the evil here refers not to sin, but to conflict or lack of peace. Is it so hard to understand a contrast?

I said the bible states that god creates evil... When challenged I linked a passage which says very clearly that god creates evil.

There's no twisting of anything involved.

 

[Messy]

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Read your bible, it's in there....

Evil is not satan or moral evil, but a disaster to protect the good. There's another text that He created the destroyer. When you look it's not the same word in Hebrew as used for Satan in Job. If He created actively darkness it would have said: And He said: Let there be darkness.
And that would have made Him evil and impossible to create good loving friendly people.

 

[WoundedDeep]

You're conflating a flawed world with a flawed design.

If the design was intended to keep us ignorant of good and evil, and we stayed ignorant of good and evil, then the design would be working perfectly as intended.

If the intent was to keep us ignorant of good and evil, and we gained knowledge of it, then there was a flaw in the design. It did not work as intended.

When god created things, he must have had some sort of plan in mind as you always need a plan in place when designing something. If this world is what he intended, then his design was perfect. If this world is not what was intended, there was a flaw, it's inescapable.

What if I tell you the intention of God in His creation was to let His creation become knowledgeable of good and evil? Then clearly God's design is perfect because He gave us ability to be either good or evil and to be aware of the difference between them.

Knowledge of good and evil is not a requirement for perfection.

It is a requirement for perfection in God's design because He wants us to be like Him: Knowing good and evil but choosing good over evil.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I said the bible states that god creates evil... When challenged I linked a passage which says very clearly that god creates evil.

There's no twisting of anything involved.

But if you extend that passage to call God the author of sin, then you ARE twisting the Bible's meaning. Evil when contrasted with a word like "peace" nowhere leads to a conclusion that it means sin.

 

[Messy]

You're conflating a flawed world with a flawed design.

If the design was intended to keep us ignorant of good and evil, and we stayed ignorant of good and evil, then the design would be working perfectly as intended.

If the intent was to keep us ignorant of good and evil, and we gained knowledge of it, then there was a flaw in the design. It did not work as intended.

When god created things, he must have had some sort of plan in mind as you always need a plan in place when designing something. If this world is what he intended, then his design was perfect. If this world is not what was intended, there was a flaw, it's inescapable.

Knowledge of good and evil is not a requirement for perfection.

No it's not a requirement. Know here is know by experience. They could get to know satan by experience, by sinning or just obeyed, eat from the Tree of Life which is to know Him by experience. No need of knowing evil.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I said the bible states that god creates evil... When challenged I linked a passage which says very clearly that god creates evil.

There's no twisting of anything involved.

And I forgot to add: Knowing evil does not mean one has to be evil. But it certainly means you need to experience evil in your life and see its effects on you and others around you. In a perfectly incorruptible world this will not happen.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You have a flawed understanding of what perfection means. God created a perfect world where free will exist. Therefore, perfection does not mean inability for corruption, it simply means God has made His created beings completely capable of being sinless. Was satan capable of being a sinless angel when God made him? Yes. Was Adam and Eve capable of being sinless when God made them? Yes. But by their free will, they choose to sin.

Given that they lacked knowledge of good and evil, how were they to know not to choose sin? How could the concept of 'sin' even make sense to them?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Given that they lacked knowledge of good and evil, how were they to know not to choose sin? How could the concept of 'sin' even make sense to them?

God told them right from the beginning that they would die if they sinned, they sinned because of unbelief. If you were a child and an adult told you you would die from doing something, will you not know it is harmful and avoid it? How then can you say you do not know not to choose it when you were told it will cause death?

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's something I think noone understands. He was perfect, got proud and became a monster.

God is allegedly perfect and proud -- what's His excuse?

 

[TLK Valentine]

God told them right from the beginning that they would die if they sinned, they sinned because of unbelief.

Does the Bible consider death an evil thing?

If you were a child and an adult told you you would die from doing something, will you not know it is harmful and avoid it? How then can you say you do not know not to choose it when you were told it will cause death?

Depends on how old the child is...

 

[WoundedDeep]

God is allegedly perfect and proud -- what's His excuse?

God is perfect and humble, His humbleness is exemplified in the Person of Jesus Christ. Where did you get the notion that God is proud?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Does the Bible consider death an evil thing?

Yes, but the root cause of death is sin, therefore sin is true evil.

Depends on how old the child is...

That was used as an analogy. In the case of Adam and Eve, they certainly know what death will entail.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God told them right from the beginning that they would die if they sinned,

To be specific, he said that they would die the day they ate of the tree. They didn't.

If you were a child and an adult told you you would die from doing something, will you not know it is harmful and avoid it? How then can you say you do not know not to choose it when you were told it will cause death?

The situation with Adam and Eve is quite different because they lacked knowledge of good and evil. How then did they know that they were sinning?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God is perfect and humble, His humbleness is exemplified in the Person of Jesus Christ. Where did you get the notion that God is proud?

I've never known a humble person to demand worship or to threaten hellfire for those who withhold worship. That doesn't strike me as exemplary humility.

 

[TLK Valentine]

God is perfect and humble, His humbleness is exemplified in the Person of Jesus Christ. Where did you get the notion that God is proud?

God demands worship -- what happens when we don't give it to Him?

 

[WoundedDeep]

To be specific, he said that they would die the day that they ate of the tree. They didn't.

Your definition of death is different from God's. God meant the second death which is spiritual. Adam and Eve were in fact spiritually dead the day they ate the forbidden fruit.

The situation with Adam and Eve is quite different because they lacked knowledge of good and evil. How then did they know that they were sinning?

No the situation was not any different, they were told the harmful effects of evil. That alone was enough to tell them not to choose evil, provided they believed in God fully. You do not need to touch fire to know that it will burn you up, you only need to be told it burns you for you to avoid touching it. Same applies to Adam and Eve.

 

[Messy]

God is allegedly perfect and proud -- what's His excuse?

God is proud and bad and why do I never hear someone complain about the devil? I guess you never met either one of them.
If God was so proud how could Jesus be humble and how could there be humble people? Suppose He was proud and made an evil devil and had it all set up and wanted us to suffer, that would make Him evil. Someone who is evil can't even think of creating an innocent kid, that's impossible. Try making a monster yourself that will kill your children when you're a friendly, good person.

 

[WoundedDeep]

God demands worship -- what happens when we don't give it to Him?

That is not an indication of pride., if you know what worship really means. Worship cannot be done from the heart unless you truly know God and know that He deserves to be worshipped. Just like you cannot respect a person unless you know him well enough to decide he deserves it by his way of being.

And God certainly does not need our worship, He is self sustaining and eternal. He demands our worship because He knows we rely on Him and need His sustenance. Worship helps us to focus on getting our true needs from Him and Him alone, and to stray from Him is to go in other ways that will never satisfy what we truly need. Why is this world never free from problems? Because no one seeks God and asks from Him through worship.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Your definition of death is different from God's. God meant the second death which is spiritual. Adam and Eve were in fact spiritually dead the day they ate the forbidden fruit.

That's not what the text says, however.

No the situation was not any different, they were told the harmful effects of evil.

Which means little if they have no concept of evil.