Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Gottservant]

Perfection is about how a final product matches its design scheme. A perfect mirror is not supposed to be able to speak English as speaking English is not the design purpose of a mirror. Moreover, you don't point to the melting glass in the process of glass blowing to say that it's flawed because it's not reflecting images.

So the first point is, you need to understand the design purpose of a product. Second is you need to evaluate the final product instead of the semi product.

Humans on earth is semi product in its "glass blowing" process. Only humans in heaven can be evaluated as perfect or not. To me, we don't seem to understand the design purpose of planet earth neither.

Exactly what I would have said, if I thought they were listening to me.

Forgive me.

The floor is yours.

 

[Gottservant]

So does that mean god's perfect creation was designed to fall into sin?

Because if the world fell into sin unintentionally, that means the original design did not meet its intent, and therefore was not perfect

No, it merely means falling into sin was possible.

Therefore Creation chose to fall into sin, and so, in the sense that it retains the potential of that choice, is still perfect (in choice).

This was the message of Christ.

 

[Gottservant]

Well then he's not omnibenevolent.

But if the choice to remain true to the choice is there, before the sin which takes away the ability to ignore choice comes, then the gift of the choice came before the end, despite the fact that it meant He would be ignored.

 

[Gottservant]

So in other words it wasn't a perfect design, there was a flaw that was exposed by Adam and Eve.

Except that the potential is still there, so you are clearly ignoring that we are still free.

 

[Messy]

So in other words it wasn't a perfect design, there was a flaw that was exposed by Adam and Eve.

Yes okay, they weren't perfect. Even Jesus wasn't perfect. He was made perfect through suffering. He created everything perfect, it says about Lucifer that he was created perfect, yet free will means it is possible for a perfect creation to become totally evil. I think He didn't make Adam perfect not to have this happen again, so that he had a choice to sin and still could be changed to his first state and even better. I think perfect is mature.

 

[Gottservant]

No, he's not all good because he's willingly allowing people to live in a world he designed with widespread disease, natural disasters, famine, drought, etc.

Any omnibenevolent being could not allow that to happen.

An omnibenevolent being that could not allow that to happen, couldn't create in the first place.

Am I evil if I create the ground, and you throw yourself against it (despite the fact that you are free to walk around on it)?

The test of God is not His foreknowing that His forecreating do away with both, but that His forecreating reveal His foreknowing despite either (selah)

 

[Inkfingers]

Why would God create a flawed creation?

Maybe he wanted to sell periodic upgrades like Microsoft do...

If God was omniscient and omnipotent, then he wouldn't have knowingly created a flawed creation. However, creation is obviously flawed, so one of the following must be true:

1. While God is compassionate and loving, he is not omniscient (he could not see the results of his action), or
2. While God is compassionate and loving, he is not omnipotent (he could not create a perfect creation, or he did not have the power to sustain perfection in his creation), or
3. God is omniscient and omnipotent but uncompassionate and unloving (towards his creation he originated, dooming many to hell which he foreknew).

What saith ye?

Oh good, the problem of evil.....again.

Creation is not flawed. Suffering is part of the deal and part of what a real universe has to include for virtue of being real.

 

[Gottservant]

When you suffer in Heaven, you are rewarded with more Heaven (selah)

 

[ananda]

Maybe he wanted to sell periodic upgrades like Microsoft do...

Oh good, the problem of evil.....again.

Creation is not flawed. Suffering is part of the deal and part of what a real universe has to include for virtue of being real.

So, heaven must not be real then, since it (reportedly) does not include suffering?

 

[ananda]

Yes okay, they weren't perfect. Even Jesus wasn't perfect. He was made perfect through suffering. He created everything perfect, it says about Lucifer that he was created perfect, yet free will means it is possible for a perfect creation to become totally evil. I think He didn't make Adam perfect not to have this happen again, so that he had a choice to sin and still could be changed to his first state and even better. I think perfect is mature.

So can we conclude that there is no free will in heaven, then?

 

[Inkfingers]

So, heaven must not be real then, since it (reportedly) does not include suffering?

Life is suffering, but the Buddha ceased to suffer....did he cease to live at that point?

 

[TLK Valentine]

So can we conclude that there is no free will in heaven, then?

I've always considered that a given.

 

[ananda]

Life is suffering, but the Buddha ceased to suffer....did he cease to live at that point?

Buddha, in the early Buddhist view, is neither living nor dead in the sense that we understand life and death. Buddhism embraces non-suffering as a potentiality that exists outside of the universe (samsara), whereas even the heavens within samsara include some suffering.

But here in this thread, I was mainly focusing on the Christian view of creation & heaven.

 

[Inkfingers]

Buddha, in the early Buddhist view, is neither living nor dead in the sense that we understand life and death.

Which is nonsense, really. He was alive and he stopped suffering (he wasn't a corpse or a zombie and word games don't change that).

But here in this thread, I was mainly focusing on the Christian view of creation & heaven.

And I was pointing you to your own religion for a moment....

Suffering is this world.
Heaven is spiritual so its not a thing of experience - it just "is".

 

[Dave Ellis]

No, it merely means falling into sin was possible.

Therefore Creation chose to fall into sin, and so, in the sense that it retains the potential of that choice, is still perfect (in choice).

This was the message of Christ.

So it was it intended or not intended that the world would fall into sin?

If your god is omniscient, he must have had his plan, and he must have known how things were going to go based on his design.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Except that the potential is still there, so you are clearly ignoring that we are still free.

Are we? So we can sin all we want to without any consequences?

 

[ananda]

I've always considered that a given.

Which implies a robotic existence

 

[Dave Ellis]

An omnibenevolent being that could not allow that to happen, couldn't create in the first place.

Am I evil if I create the ground, and you throw yourself against it (despite the fact that you are free to walk around on it)?

The test of God is not His foreknowing that His forecreating do away with both, but that His forecreating reveal His foreknowing despite either (selah)

That's nonsense, an omnibenevolent being by definition would not create a world that had the possibility of widespread suffering.

He also wouldn't ever create a place like hell (if you include hell in your theology).

 

[Dave Ellis]

Maybe he wanted to sell periodic upgrades like Microsoft do...



Oh good, the problem of evil.....again.

Creation is not flawed. Suffering is part of the deal and part of what a real universe has to include for virtue of being real.

So then your god is not omnibenevolent. That's fine.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Which implies a robotic existence

No it doesn't... Why would it?

As it stands now you don't have an unlimited number of choices you can make. There are some things you just can't do, even if you wanted to do those things.

Taking the ability to do evil off the list of things we can do would leave every other action, ability and decision making process we have fully intact, we'd just live in a more peaceful world.