Why would anyone want to be a Christian?

[joey_downunder]

So, just make up my own interpretation as pathway to ultimate truth? That seems sensible... (not really)...

Aren't you already doing that by assuming that Christianity = Calvinism when Calvin wasn't even born until 1509? That is nearly 1500 years AFTER Jesus lived.

Not one book in the Bible written by Calvin. Calvin was not one of Jesus' disciples or even an early church writer etc etc.

 

[Soothfish]

It's not that simple though is it? Of course I'd love to believe that there is some magical deity that will protect me while I'm alive, and when I die, let me live forever in some Happy La La Land for all eternity.

But how do you get from being a rational atheist to being a 'believer'? It may sound simple to you, but it's not easy for me.

What does that have to do with what I said? His original question was "Why would anyone WANT to be a Christian?" and I responded with a reason for why someone would WANT to believe. It has nothing to do with whether or not there is a sufficient evidence for a certain person to believe. If he had asked "Why SHOULD I believe?" then that would be a very different question. Get it?

 

[Merlinius]

Originally Posted by seekingagnostic32

I have a long way to go before I am ready to chuck my brain out the window and stop thinking for myself, in addition to accepting whatever interpretation or belief structure that you accept. I played the Christian game for over 10 years of my life, closer to 15 actually since I got "born again". I'm living proof that man can walk away from the god of religion and live to tell the tale. Calvinists told me you cannot do so, but clearly you can. Another reason their religion is wrong. But I am very much convinced that their beliefs are solidly rooted in the Bible, not fanciful thinking. Thus, I reject the Bible and Christianity with it.


Hi seekingagnostic

I for one compliment you for having made a decision one way or the other. From my perspective, it is honorable for a man to not be wishy-washy in the stance he's decided to establish for his self, as God Himself says "I would that men would either be hot or cold, not lukewarm".
Of course your name is going to throw some people now and again, as it did Soothfish, as the "seeking" part of it will do, as you obviously aren't. But that point is pretty much moot though isn't it lol.
But by your statement all can see that you've made a hard thought out decision and stand firmly beside it and I salute you for it sir.

Best wishes,
Merlin
​

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Is that not what Calvin did? Is that not how you wound up where you are now? (Following what he made up, I mean)

Except that he didn't make it up as you put it. He read the Bible and found it in there. The problem with Calvin is not that he and his followers don't take the Bible seriously, it is that they do take it seriously. Making up your own interpretation because you disagree with the Bible is not a very wise thing to do.

Augustine was around in the 4th century, all Calvin did was copy him. So it wasn't until 16th century all these ideas came about. They were around for over a millenium before Cauvin.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Aren't you already doing that by assuming that Christianity = Calvinism when Calvin wasn't even born until 1509? That is nearly 1500 years AFTER Jesus lived.

Not one book in the Bible written by Calvin. Calvin was not one of Jesus' disciples or even an early church writer etc etc.

Your profile says you are a Baptist. But, by what you just said, then we should not follow any denominations since none of them were from Jesus or his followers. So, why are you a Baptist then? Also, most Baptists tend to be Reformed so wouldn't that also make you a Calvinist?

There is only one truth. Are Calvinists Christians? If so, then Calvinism is Christianity. If not, then how do you answer their theology? They take the Bible very seriously and don't ignore all the bad parts.

 

[joey_downunder]

Your profile says you are a Baptist. But, by what you just said, then we should not follow any denominations since none of them were from Jesus or his followers. So, why are you a Baptist then? Also, most Baptists tend to be Reformed so wouldn't that also make you a Calvinist?

You are right, many Baptists are Calvinists and I am becoming increasingly sympathetic towards Calvinism. There are many christians who do not see the same way i.e. Arminians, and their faith is just as genuine as any calvinist's faith. My pastor has never mentioned people like Calvin, only the apostles (and their writings).

I remember some writer saying arminians and calvinists are seeing the different side of the same coin and I liked that observation. God knows all, and decides all things, but still holds each person responsible for their decision to reject or believe in Him.

There is only one truth. Are Calvinists Christians? If so, then Calvinism is Christianity. If not, then how do you answer their theology? They take the Bible very seriously and don't ignore all the bad parts.

That type of logic is like "all dogs have 4 legs, all cats have 4 legs, therefore a dog is a cat".

Spend your time looking at christian beliefs overall which is very well summarised in the nicene creed. The early church spoke of what was truly important. Then you should be able to see Calvinism is a relatively unimportant viewpoint in comparison to the Nicene Creed's statements.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

You are right, many Baptists are Calvinists and I am becoming increasingly sympathetic towards Calvinism. There are many christians who do not see the same way i.e. Arminians, and their faith is just as genuine as any calvinist's faith. My pastor has never mentioned people like Calvin, only the apostles (and their writings).

I remember some writer saying arminians and calvinists are seeing the different side of the same coin and I liked that observation. God knows all, and decides all things, but still holds each person responsible for their decision to reject or believe in Him.

That type of logic is like "all dogs have 4 legs, all cats have 4 legs, therefore a dog is a cat".

Spend your time looking at christian beliefs overall which is very well summarised in the nicene creed. The early church spoke of what was truly important. Then you should be able to see Calvinism is a relatively unimportant viewpoint in comparison to the Nicene Creed's statements.

So you can have two people who believe completely different and contradictory things about god and his character and both are Christians? I say there is only one truth, not two or three. Who is right? If one is clearly wrong, then how can you say "they are both Christians?" Obviously at least one of them is 100% wrong.

There is no synergy. One view worships a vile, wicked god, the other worships a much better God, but one who is not consistent with the Bible. For truth-seekers, we are not content to select a feel-good philosophy that ignores truth, provided we are saying the Bible is the truth after all.

The nicean creed is not enough. What matters is the deity you worship. If Calvinism is the truth, then I flatly reject Christianity entirely. It is not for me. Yet I cannot condemn Calvinist Christians for they at least take the Bible seriously, as awful as much of it is.

I respectfully disagree with your thesis entirely. You say the type of deity that one chooses to worship has no bearing on one's faith. I disagree. If god is as the Calvinist Christians says, then he is in no way worthy of any worship. He is a beast and a monster, unworthy of anything but the same treatment one would adorn the devil with.

 

[razeontherock]

Except that he didn't make it up as you put it. He read the Bible and found it in there. The problem with Calvin is not that he and his followers don't take the Bible seriously, it is that they do take it seriously. Making up your own interpretation because you disagree with the Bible is not a very wise thing to do.

And yet Calvin made up his own interpretation, which you defend and stand by, only to reject. This is the classic definition of a strawman; prop up a weak argument so you can tear it down. Ok, so one believer congratulates you for at least making a stance re: Jesus, while I challenge you to grow a pair and deal with the Gospel, rather than some strawman concocted 1500 years later.

I double dog dare ya. I don't see any demonstration of the required intestinal fortitude to do it; prove me wrong!

Augustine

Augustine is dismissed as a heretic, even though he had some good ideas. Did Augustine shed his blood and die for your sins? Did Augustine have any power for that to make one bit of difference, even if he had? Has anyone been baptized in the name of Augustine?

Cop out.

The Faith once delivered to the Saints - I have yet to see you deal with it. Apparently you can't handle the Truth! [/Jack Nicholson]

 

[joey_downunder]

So you can have two people who believe completely different and contradictory things about god and his character and both are Christians? I say there is only one truth, not two or three.

Christianity is a belief in Christ, not a maths problem. Take off your scientism glasses when looking at religion.

Christians are all unique individuals, with different backgrounds, strengths, weaknesses etc. That will affect how we view God and religion overall. We all come from different stages in our life and have a different life map but are walking towards the same destination i.e. God. Someone walking from the east will see the same mountain very differently to someone walking from the west.

Who is right? If one is clearly wrong, then how can you say "they are both Christians?" Obviously at least one of them is 100% wrong.

No, both can be right AND both can be wrong. The truth will stay the same regardless of what any christian says. The truth never changes. Two christians can read the same bible verse, see something completely different and be right.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)

Jack sees There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) Jack rejoices that because he has faith he is no longer condemned because he now knows God has forgiven him.

Jill sees There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) Jill now realises that belief in Christ is what is absolutely essential to be accepted by God. People who are not christians are condemned by God.

One bible verse, two different perspectives, both completely correct.

There is no synergy. One view worships a vile, wicked god, the other worships a much better God, but one who is not consistent with the Bible. For truth-seekers, we are not content to select a feel-good philosophy that ignores truth, provided we are saying the Bible is the truth after all.

The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. Yes there are many christians who try to explain away how much sinful people were punished by God before Jesus came. Their rationalising and excuse-making does not change the truth.

If god is as the Calvinist Christians says, then he is in no way worthy of any worship. He is a beast and a monster, unworthy of anything but the same treatment one would adorn the devil with.

Have you ever read anything about what the Jews had actually been doing when worshipping pagan gods before they were punished by God (after many warnings by different prophets)?!!! It sounds like you need to learn about ancient religions' terrible customs and sacrifices before you can point the accusatory finger at the Christian God.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

And yet Calvin made up his own interpretation, which you defend and stand by, only to reject. This is the classic definition of a strawman; prop up a weak argument so you can tear it down. Ok, so one believer congratulates you for at least making a stance re: Jesus, while I challenge you to grow a pair and deal with the Gospel, rather than some strawman concocted 1500 years later.

I double dog dare ya. I don't see any demonstration of the required intestinal fortitude to do it; prove me wrong!



Augustine is dismissed as a heretic, even though he had some good ideas. Did Augustine shed his blood and die for your sins? Did Augustine have any power for that to make one bit of difference, even if he had? Has anyone been baptized in the name of Augustine?

Cop out.

The Faith once delivered to the Saints - I have yet to see you deal with it. Apparently you can't handle the Truth! [/Jack Nicholson]

Augustine is a heretic now? Since when? He is venerated as "Saint" Augustine by the Catholics for a reason! Most Christians love to quote him, I've read enough posts in the theology forum to know! He even formulated the doctrine of Original Sin that Christians are so fond of. Without him and his Manichaean background, Christianity would not be the thing it is today!

Maybe Augustine did die for my sins. I'm not familiar with the particulars of his death. I can't comment on much else of his existence other than his impact on Christianity.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Christianity is a belief in Christ, not a maths problem. Take off your scientism glasses when looking at religion.

Christians are all unique individuals, with different backgrounds, strengths, weaknesses etc. That will affect how we view God and religion overall. We all come from different stages in our life and have a different life map but are walking towards the same destination i.e. God. Someone walking from the east will see the same mountain very differently to someone walking from the west.

No, both can be right AND both can be wrong. The truth will stay the same regardless of what any christian says. The truth never changes. Two christians can read the same bible verse, see something completely different and be right.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)

Jack sees There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) Jack rejoices that because he has faith he is no longer condemned because he now knows God has forgiven him.

Jill sees There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) Jill now realises that belief in Christ is what is absolutely essential to be accepted by God. People who are not christians are condemned by God.

One bible verse, two different perspectives, both completely correct.

The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. Yes there are many christians who try to explain away how much sinful people were punished by God before Jesus came. Their rationalising and excuse-making does not change the truth.

Have you ever read anything about what the Jews had actually been doing when worshipping pagan gods before they were punished by God (after many warnings by different prophets)?!!! It sounds like you need to learn about ancient religions' terrible customs and sacrifices before you can point the accusatory finger at the Christian God.

So we can believe whatever we like and all be Christians? That's not what the early church thought when it was executing heretics. Even the slightest heresy was dealt with in swift and brutal fashion. Didn't you read your Christian history text?

I do not see how two people seeing the same event can both be right. Example. A man sees a robbery and says the suspect is a thin black man in his early 30's. A woman who saw the same robbery says the lone suspect was a heavyset asian man. They both cannot be right! This has nothing to do with math or science - two subjects I did poorly in by-the-way. I am more of a linguistic than a scientist, just so you know.

You are right; truth never changes. I believe in absolute truth. That is why I know that both views cannot be compatible. For one to be right, the other must be wrong. This is how reality works. From my understanding, Calvin had the more complete view of the Bible and Christianity. It also turned out to be the more morally appalling view, so I had to let it down and put it to bed with a rag of chloroform.

It's great god "forgave" Jack by murdering his own son as an elaborate ruse to gain glory for himself. How touching, how moving. I wish I could have bloodshed every time an enemy sinned against me. Apparently that is how god "forgives" - by demanding blood payment for offenses. Didn't Jesus tell us to be like his dad? If so, I'm far too forgiving and merciful to people than I ought to be. I could learn a thing or two from god.

Odd. I don't remember saying anything about the old testament cruelty. That is an whole other subject. As bad as god supposedly was then, according to you; at least all he did was kill you if he didn't like you. Come new testament, he decides that's not enough and now he creates some people just to torture in hell forever because they are doing as he made them to! How that is justice is astounding. As if hell was not bad enough, god is the very one sending people there because he forced them to be blind to believing in him! What love!

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Hi seekingagnostic

I for one compliment you for having made a decision one way or the other. From my perspective, it is honorable for a man to not be wishy-washy in the stance he's decided to establish for his self, as God Himself says "I would that men would either be hot or cold, not lukewarm".
Of course your name is going to throw some people now and again, as it did Soothfish, as the "seeking" part of it will do, as you obviously aren't. But that point is pretty much moot though isn't it lol.
But by your statement all can see that you've made a hard thought out decision and stand firmly beside it and I salute you for it sir.

Best wishes,
Merlin
​

I am seeking. I seek truth and welcome it wherever I find it. I tested Christianity and it has been found lacking. That does not mean I have stopped seeking because I found your religion to be invalid. If you think my beliefs now are the end of my journey in life, guess again. Life is like a flowing river and truth is never found, it is to be pursued as one floats along in its wake. Anyone who claims to have "arrived" clearly has not.

 

[joey_downunder]

So we can believe whatever we like and all be Christians?

Where did I say that? Did you read one line of the Nicene Creed? Anyone who knowingly denies any of those doctrines is either not a christian or is a christian walking on extremely thin ice.

That's not what the early church thought when it was executing heretics. Even the slightest heresy was dealt with in swift and brutal fashion. Didn't you read your Christian history text?

Don't oversimplify things. There were many different situations and factors regarding how heresy was dealt with. Some christian teachers dealt with heresies very well e.g. athanasius. Other christian leaders wongly did terrible things when rightly dealing with heresies e.g.Pope Gregory IX In the second case by that time the Church had gained too much power and influence.

I do not see how two people seeing the same event can both be right. Example. A man sees a robbery and says the suspect is a thin black man in his early 30's. A woman who saw the same robbery says the lone suspect was a heavyset asian man. They both cannot be right!

What has that got to do with "the price of eggs in China?" You were discussing your hatred of Calvinism. Don't try to bring theoretical petty crimes into the equation.

This has nothing to do with math or science - two subjects I did poorly in by-the-way. I am more of a linguistic than a scientist, just so you know.

That's something we've got in common.

You are right; truth never changes. I believe in absolute truth. That is why I know that both views cannot be compatible. For one to be right, the other must be wrong. This is how reality works.

Another thing we have in common. It is good you have not succumbed to the Postmodernist approach to truth.

From my understanding, Calvin had the more complete view of the Bible and Christianity. It also turned out to be the more morally appalling view, so I had to let it down and put it to bed with a rag of chloroform.

OK can you point out what issue/s have you have the most problem/s with where it comes to Calvin's "TULIP" doctrine?

It's great god "forgave" Jack by murdering his own son as an elaborate ruse to gain glory for himself. How touching, how moving. I wish I could have bloodshed every time an enemy sinned against me.

That sure is an example of seeing the glass half-full as a drop of poisonous/polluted water left in a cheap-and-nasty glass. Do you apply the same type of distorted and negative reasoning to other areas of your life?

Didn't Jesus tell us to be like his dad? If so, I'm far too forgiving and merciful to people than I ought to be. I could learn a thing or two from god.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Would you do that?

Odd. I don't remember saying anything about the old testament cruelty. That is an whole other subject.

Probably read too many atheists who use that quoting of (at first glance) nasty-sounding Bible verses from the OT to justify their rejection of God.

As if hell was not bad enough, god is the very one sending people there because he forced them to be blind to believing in him! What love!

All those types of comments sound like excuses. What are you personally gaining by doing that?

 

[salida]

This is partly from another user and my input:

God is a righteous Judge and His justice needs to be satisfied by having a penalty paid for our sins or "lawless deeds".

The only way that debt could be paid is 2 ways; if we pay it ourselves by suffering eternal separation from God or if God provided a substitute who had no sin debt of His own to take our penalty on the cross.

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/

The main things Christianity provides me:

1. Total relief from the huge burden my sins have created. These sins are no longer a burden or a problem and actually become part of my witness (they are the how I was before Christ came into my life). I feel I can almost fly with the freedom I have been given.
2. The indwelling Holy Spirit, becomes a personal guarantee that God is going to fulfill everything he has promised me. I am not relying on what someone I trust believes or said, but the indwelling Holy Spirit. I know He is there because of what He does and has done for me. He can be as active as I allow Him to be in my life.
3. Godly type Love as both a compelling force and huge strength. This Love combined with the faith I have can do great things. It transforms me into a loving person.
4. The promise of Godly wisdom. Not a worldly wisdom, but wisdom that can change my life.
5. The birthright to heaven that cannot be taken away.

There is overwhelming circumstantial evidence of the bible. This type of evidence is used in a court of law.
Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

This is partly from another user and my input:

God is a righteous Judge and His justice needs to be satisfied by having a penalty paid for our sins or "lawless deeds".

The only way that debt could be paid is 2 ways; if we pay it ourselves by suffering eternal separation from God or if God provided a substitute who had no sin debt of His own to take our penalty on the cross.

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/

The main things Christianity provides me:

1. Total relief from the huge burden my sins have created. These sins are no longer a burden or a problem and actually become part of my witness (they are the how I was before Christ came into my life). I feel I can almost fly with the freedom I have been given.
2. The indwelling Holy Spirit, becomes a personal guarantee that God is going to fulfill everything he has promised me. I am not relying on what someone I trust believes or said, but the indwelling Holy Spirit. I know He is there because of what He does and has done for me. He can be as active as I allow Him to be in my life.
3. Godly type Love as both a compelling force and huge strength. This Love combined with the faith I have can do great things. It transforms me into a loving person.
4. The promise of Godly wisdom. Not a worldly wisdom, but wisdom that can change my life.
5. The birthright to heaven that cannot be taken away.

Quick question: Where exactly in the Bible is the term "sin debt" used? And where does it say clearly that god demands eternal separation as "payment" for such? I've read it countless times and must have missed that part. Remember, god set up the system, then made ridiculous and impossible to fulfill commands, so how exactly are you to blame? That is like a parent beating their 6 month old because it cannot walk and talk clearly, when it is still unable. This is justice?

Number two is a good reason I suppose. Escaping religiously-imposed guilt, not so much though.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

.

 

[razeontherock]

So we can believe whatever we like and all be Christians? That's not what the early church thought when it was executing heretics. Even the slightest heresy was dealt with in swift and brutal fashion. Didn't you read your Christian history text?

You are not referring to "the early Church." for that, you need to look at 33 AD to 70. Nothing of the sort happened then. By 150 AD it had changed enough to ostracize the Jews, which was a perversion. What you're talking about, is hundreds of years later! That is NOT "early."

I do not see how two people seeing the same event can both be right. Example. A man sees a robbery and says the suspect is a thin black man in his early 30's. A woman who saw the same robbery says the lone suspect was a heavyset asian man. They both cannot be right! This has nothing to do with math or science - two subjects I did poorly in by-the-way. I am more of a linguistic than a scientist, just so you know.

You should be aware of study results, done largely among high level College students. Someone runs into the class, and very convincingly but harmlessly shoots the Prof to death, making a bloody mess. Then the Prof gets up and announces the intentions; to document human powers of observation (under
stressful circumstances) No one is allowed to say a word, until they write down what they saw.

No 2 students reports were ever the same.

You are right; truth never changes. I believe in absolute truth. That is why I know that both views cannot be compatible. For one to be right, the other must be wrong.

Nope, such maxims do not pertain to the Spiritual realm. None of us sees so completely as to be able to make such definitive assertions. What you're doing is called "black and white thinking," and it's dangerous.

Expand your horizons!

From my understanding, Calvin had the more complete view of the Bible and Christianity. It also turned out to be the more morally appalling view, so I had to let it down and put it to bed with a rag of chloroform.

A most fair statement! I challenge your understanding. I am here to challenge your understanding.

It's great god "forgave" Jack by murdering his own son as an elaborate ruse to gain glory for himself.

Really? Must you disparage goodness itself? If this is your intent, I question if helping you is a good idea. The finished work of the Cross is for mankind's redemption, and I'm pretty sure you know that. That would be, you know ... you and I personally benefitting.

Why bite the hand that feeds? Why pretend this is not equivalent to pounding spikes into Jesus' skull, as if He hasn't suffered enough already?

How touching, how moving. I wish I could have bloodshed every time an enemy sinned against me. Apparently that is how god "forgives" - by demanding blood payment for offenses. Didn't Jesus tell us to be like his dad? If so, I'm far too forgiving and merciful to people than I ought to be. I could learn a thing or two from god.

You are spewing false understanding, that you yourself reject. Stop, and go back to your analogy of psycho god driving a car to kill people. Many who know G-d far better than you pointed out you have the wrong idea; have some integrity, and see that through.

You also need to expose yourself to the Orthodox view of hell.

 

[razeontherock]

I am seeking. I seek truth and welcome it wherever I find it. I tested Christianity and it has been found lacking. That does not mean I have stopped seeking because I found your religion to be invalid.

These statements are false! If you were seeking as you claim, you would listen to us telling you you have NOT understood Christianity, only false misrepresentations of it that you correctly reject. The difference is as subtle as an elephant in the room.

 

[razeontherock]

Quick question: Where exactly in the Bible is the term "sin debt" used? And where does it say clearly that god demands eternal separation as "payment" for such?

Correct terminology is "the law of sin and death." Understanding this completely clears up your confusion about psycho god driving a car to purposefully kill people. It addresses ransom, and puts penal substitution in it's proper place.

You really do have to remove your stinkin' thinkin' on these misunderstandings before you can come to a healthy relationship with G-d.

Remember, god set up the system, then made ridiculous and impossible to fulfill commands

No He did NOT! The command was (and IS) avoid 1 tree, that is in the middle of the garden. Everything else is fine, and there was abundance. Nothing impossible to fulfill about that, and the only 'ridiculous' part was how easy it was!

 

[Soothfish]

Anyone?

I used to be one, but the more learned, the more repulsed I became by it.

How can you be repulsed by the resurrection and glorification of history's downtrodden?

Are you spending too much time on anti-theist websites? They aren't anywhere near as knowledgeable or intelligent as they think they are. I've seen anti-theists take a clearly anti-murder verse, pull it completely out of context, and then claim that God is advocating child murder. It's not exactly difficult to be that dishonest.