Why would anyone want to be a Christian?

[seekingagnostic32]

Can someone tell me, please?

What were your reasons for becoming one?

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Anyone?

I used to be one, but the more learned, the more repulsed I became by it.

 

[razeontherock]

Reasons are Love of the Truth, and logic. You need some help sorting through what repulsed you. Notice:

Luke 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil"

There is no shame in recognizing there is evil in our hearts! All of us have it, all of us accumulate it, and we all need to sort through it. Our thinking is the beginning of the process, from there it works through our emotions, the fruits of the Spirit directly affect that level, and action only comes later.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Reasons are Love of the Truth, and logic. You need some help sorting through what repulsed you. Notice:

Luke 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil"

There is no shame in recognizing there is evil in our hearts! All of us have it, all of us accumulate it, and we all need to sort through it. Our thinking is the beginning of the process, from there it works through our emotions, the fruits of the Spirit directly affect that level, and action only comes later.

Yeah there is evil in our hearts. The problem is, that our god is, in fact, worse than we are! Doesn't the Bible say to imitate god? Yet the Bible also shows god to be jealous, petty, angry, vindictive, judgmental and choosing which people to save and which to damn simply on a divine whim. It also says god is mainly concerned with his glory, not being good or loving to anyone or anything else. That sounds remarkably like selfishness. But we're condemned if we act the way I just described. Why is something right for god yet wrong for man?

 

[razeontherock]

The problem is, that our god is, in fact, worse than we are!

No, that's actually not a problem at all. Why don't you recognize your own actions here, as being described in Rev 16:11:

"And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."

Yet the Bible also shows god to be jealous, petty, angry, vindictive, judgmental

Likewise Cain's problem was that he could not bear his punishment, rather than having any true repentance. Again, the Bible does not show what you claim at all, but you have not worked through the difficult passages to be able to conclude this:

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments."

It also says god is mainly concerned with his glory, not being good or loving to anyone or anything else.

No it doesn't; that's Calvinism, not Scripture. No free pass!

It seems you need to learn to apply Rev 16, and then move on to Psalms to learn how to be a "man after G-d's own heart." (Not sure that can be addressed in 1 chapter

 

[seekingagnostic32]

No, that's actually not a problem at all. Why don't you recognize your own actions here, as being described in Rev 16:11:

"And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."



Likewise Cain's problem was that he could not bear his punishment, rather than having any true repentance. Again, the Bible does not show what you claim at all, but you have not worked through the difficult passages to be able to conclude this:

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments."



No it doesn't; that's Calvinism, not Scripture. No free pass!

It seems you need to learn to apply Rev 16, and then move on to Psalms to learn how to be a "man after G-d's own heart." (Not sure that can be addressed in 1 chapter

I have news for you: People are naturally inclined to blaspheme or speak ill of a murderous, violent, cruel person, whether or not said being is supposed to be a god or not. If you think that a man should run to the very god who is killing, torturing and abusing them, then what you have just said is that "love" is the same thing as that of an abusive relationship. But then, god does 'wound and bind up' does he not? I think that's in Hosea.

Unfortunately, Calvinism is Christianity. It also bears a striking resemblance to Islam, in that it is entirely deterministic and fatalistic. Que sera sera, whatever will be will be? The future is not ours, you see. Nevertheless, I have never heard an arminian argument that took the Bible as seriously as Calvinism without twisting its context, meaning or ignoring plain parts of the Bible. If you're going to believe something, why pick and choose?

I have tried being the man after god's heart. I have even been called that by spiritual leaders in churches. Now, I reject their idea of god and religion entirely. I find myself more and more disgusted with the Christian god the more time passes. I honestly hate religion.

 

[razeontherock]

If you think that a man should run to the very god who is killing, torturing and abusing them

Strawman. What you are asserting is not maturity; not in the least.

Unfortunately, Calvinism is Christianity.

Sez who? The fat lady ain't sung yet

it is entirely deterministic and fatalistic. Que sera sera, whatever will be will be?

That is also my bottom line conclusion of it. They do explain a good many difficult things rationally enough, but the picture it paints is distorted.

an arminian argument

Sorry to disappoint, but such theological terms mean nothing to me, nor are they about to:


1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

that took the Bible as seriously as Calvinism without twisting its context, meaning or ignoring plain parts of the Bible.

So your entire convictions are based on an argument from ignorance? Is that wise? Is that solid rock, or shifting sand?

I have tried being the man after god's heart. I have even been called that by spiritual leaders in churches. Now, I reject their idea of god and religion entirely. I find myself more and more disgusted with the Christian god the more time passes. I honestly hate religion.

I believe Jesus demonstrated that He "hated religion." I see no evidence that He came to establish a new religion. You are disgusted by false gods, errors within the modern / western Church, but how does that compare to "the man after G-d's heart" that you say you tried?

Abhor that which is evil, hold fast to that which is good.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Strawman. What you are asserting is not maturity; not in the least.



Sez who? The fat lady ain't sung yet



That is also my bottom line conclusion of it. They do explain a good many difficult things rationally enough, but the picture it paints is distorted.



Sorry to disappoint, but such theological terms mean nothing to me, nor are they about to:


1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."



So your entire convictions are based on an argument from ignorance? Is that wise? Is that solid rock, or shifting sand?



I believe Jesus demonstrated that He "hated religion." I see no evidence that He came to establish a new religion. You are disgusted by false gods, errors within the modern / western Church, but how does that compare to "the man after G-d's heart" that you say you tried?

Abhor that which is evil, hold fast to that which is good.

I agree that the god of Christianity is false, but that is hardly appropriate talk for a Christian message board. That is why I am agnostic. I don't know who or what god, or gods, is or are, but I do not believe they, he or she is as awful as the god of Christian Calvinism. I find the Greek gods of mythology kinder and less devilish than the god Christians say they worship. It is amazing how men always fashion gods in their own likeness. We've done that since day one and will probably continue to do so.

If you opened your Bible and read it, you could easily find Calvinism in there. You're just choosing to ignore it so it makes you feel more comfortable with your idea of god. I know, I used to be the same way. But then I realized, why believe something is true without evidence? Just because it feels good? No, that cannot be truth. And why pick and choose what Bible sections to follow? That is not the way to find truth. But still, why worship a being that you honestly cannot stand, who is more morally bankrupt than the worst of criminals? This is why I left this religion.

 

[kvnchrist]

Anyone?

I used to be one, but the more learned, the more repulsed I became by it.

Was it what you learned or what you experienced from those who call themselves Christian.

There is a difference there and the more you focus on the hypocrites, the more skeptical you can become.

 

[razeontherock]

I agree that the god of Christianity is false

as awful as the god of Christian Calvinism.

If you opened your Bible and read it, you could easily find Calvinism in there.

Lessee, got any more strawmen?

You're just choosing to ignore it so it makes you feel more comfortable with your idea of god.

Why yes, I see you do. Now "the god of christian calvinism" is not a strawman, since people have created it and they are not you. Yet you do see it as false, and therefore it is to be rejected.

Simple enough.

Your problem is you then go on to conclude what you were taught within Calvinism, that anything else must be "Arminianism," which is rather like gaining "insight" into Protestantism from a Roman Catholic. Which would be a very bad idea. You reject calvinism as false, you need to reject the false dichotomy re: arminianism is false also. Along with the rest of calvin specific theology.

why pick and choose what Bible sections to follow? That is not the way to find truth.

This accusation you repeat is morally bankrupt, while the G-d of the Bible is not. I cannot and will not say you haven't met Him, but your own words that you have no evidence any of it is true seem to convict you here. You are repulsed by falsehood, which is a good trait. That is (usually) synonymous with hunger for Truth, although it appears you have some baggage to jettison first.

The Truth IS within (y)our grasp

 

[razeontherock]

Was it what you learned or what you experienced from those who call themselves Christian.

There is a difference there and the more you focus on the hypocrites, the more skeptical you can become.

PARALLEL: as long as Peter focused on the waves, he sank. As long as he focused on Christ, he was fine

 

[oi_antz]

I was given the opportunity when I came to make that decision whether to believe what God says or not to. I was given a clear decision to make, in fact it could not have been any more clearer. Either I was going to accept everything that God says entirely even if I don't like it, or I would continue to remain on the other side of the fence where they don't have the light of God's truth.

Notice my motivator was truth and not fear. I had spent three weeks of solid thinking to try and figure out the truth about God and when He spoke to me, gave me the option I chose to trust Him. So it is about truth for me. It was the same for Jesus, take note of this famous quote:

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

It is not uncommon to feel at odds with the truth, usually this comes as a result of suppressing part of it. It's all or nothing with Jesus, He says this too:

Matthew 12:30
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

Either you will be with Him or you will be against Him, and if you are against Him you will be scattered.

I believe the truth is a very good reason to be Christian, let me know what you think.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Was it what you learned or what you experienced from those who call themselves Christian.

There is a difference there and the more you focus on the hypocrites, the more skeptical you can become.

Even if the Christians weren't hypocrites, I know no one's perfect, I still would not believe because their god is bad. In the end, their behaviour is mostly a minor point on how I believe.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Lessee, got any more strawmen?



Why yes, I see you do. Now "the god of christian calvinism" is not a strawman, since people have created it and they are not you. Yet you do see it as false, and therefore it is to be rejected.

Simple enough.

Your problem is you then go on to conclude what you were taught within Calvinism, that anything else must be "Arminianism," which is rather like gaining "insight" into Protestantism from a Roman Catholic. Which would be a very bad idea. You reject calvinism as false, you need to reject the false dichotomy re: arminianism is false also. Along with the rest of calvin specific theology.



This accusation you repeat is morally bankrupt, while the G-d of the Bible is not. I cannot and will not say you haven't met Him, but your own words that you have no evidence any of it is true seem to convict you here. You are repulsed by falsehood, which is a good trait. That is (usually) synonymous with hunger for Truth, although it appears you have some baggage to jettison first.

The Truth IS within (y)our grasp

LOL!

I haven't met god? LOL You really don't have any idea of my background, beliefs, faith or experiences, so I have to laugh when you make such absurd conclusions! That's quite funny. I've had plenty of out of the ordinary spiritual experiences, especially of the unpleasant variety, so I have little doubt there are spirits that have ill-will toward mankind. Unfortunately, the concept of god that Christians seem to advocate, I don't know where that falls on the scale.

I have a long way to go before I am ready to chuck my brain out the window and stop thinking for myself, in addition to accepting whatever interpretation or belief structure that you accept. I played the Christian game for over 10 years of my life, closer to 15 actually since I got "born again". I'm living proof that man can walk away from the god of religion and live to tell the tale. Calvinists told me you cannot do so, but clearly you can. Another reason their religion is wrong. But I am very much convinced that their beliefs are solidly rooted in the Bible, not fanciful thinking. Thus, I reject the Bible and Christianity with it.

 

[joey_downunder]

I have a long way to go before I am ready to chuck my brain out the window and stop thinking for myself, in addition to accepting whatever interpretation or belief structure that you accept. I played the Christian game for over 10 years of my life, closer to 15 actually since I got "born again". I'm living proof that man can walk away from the god of religion and live to tell the tale. Calvinists told me you cannot do so, but clearly you can. Another reason their religion is wrong. But I am very much convinced that their beliefs are solidly rooted in the Bible, not fanciful thinking. Thus, I reject the Bible and Christianity with it.

So what made you decide to leave Christianity?

 

[Scott1979]

So what is the point of your intial question? You have chosen to not believe in God anymore and it looks like your spending all your time trying to prove people wrong that do believe in Him. It seems to me you are wasting your time because your starting an argument that is never going to get resolved.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

So what is the point of your intial question? You have chosen to not believe in God anymore and it looks like your spending all your time trying to prove people wrong that do believe in Him. It seems to me you are wasting your time because your starting an argument that is never going to get resolved.

I was wondering why someone would ever choose to be a Christian, unless you don't believe in choosing and it's all fated.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

So what made you decide to leave Christianity?

I could no longer worship its central deity, the one Christians call god. I felt it would hypocritical to stay in a faith that I no longer like or love its god. Wouldn't that be the very essence of hypocrisy itself? The Bible, churches and religion only further helped me make that decision.

 

[joey_downunder]

I could no longer worship its central deity, the one Christians call god. I felt it would hypocritical to stay in a faith that I no longer like or love its god. Wouldn't that be the very essence of hypocrisy itself? The Bible, churches and religion only further helped me make that decision.

You're right, it would have been hypocritical to go to a church when you don't love God. It would be interesting to see how many churches would shrink if other people like youself were honest enough with themselves.

When you say you don't love God, does that mean you:
*believe in the Biblical God but hate Him OR
* hate the concept of the Christian God i.e. don't believe in any god/God at all?

 

[seekingagnostic32]

You're right, it would have been hypocritical to go to a church when you don't love God. It would be interesting to see how many churches would shrink if other people like youself were honest enough with themselves.

When you say you don't love God, does that mean you:
*believe in the Biblical God but hate Him OR
* hate the concept of the Christian God i.e. don't believe in any god/God at all?

I wish people were more honest with themselves.

I am unsure what to believe, hence I am agnostic. I don't hate god or gods or God. I simply could not worship the god that Christianity has made.

If there is a God, then I don't think he, she or they would be anything at all like the god of Christianity. I consider myself like the Athenians who had an altar that was to the UNKNOWN GOD, in Acts. If there is a god, and it is truly the Christian one, then we are all in very deep business. Or perhaps the Christian view of god is actually maleficent and false. No matter what the case may be, I was not able to follow such a being. I tried and became too disillusioned and disgusted by what religion teaches.