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We are saved by grace through Jesus:Exodus 3:12 The Lord said to Moses: 13 "Tell the Israelites: You must observe My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, so that you will know that I am the Lord who sets you apart. 14 Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death. If anyone does work on it, that person must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the Lord. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed." 18 When He finished speaking with Moses on Mount Sinai, He gave him the two tablets of the testimony, stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God.
Hebrews 4:1-10 1 Therefore, while the promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear so that none of you should miss it. 2 For we also have received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard did not benefit them, since they were not united with those who heard it in faith 3 (for we who have believed enter the rest), in keeping with what He has said: So I swore in My anger, they will not enter My rest. And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world, 4 for somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this way: And on the seventh day God rested from all His works. 5 Again, in that passage He says, They will never enter My rest. 6 Since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again, He specifies a certain day-- today --speaking through David after such a long time, as previously stated: Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts. 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken later about another day. 9 A Sabbath rest remains, therefore, for God's people.10 For the person who has entered His rest has rested from his own works, just as God did from His.
Exodus 34: 27 The Lord also said to Moses, "Write down these words, for I have made a covenant with you and with Israel based on these words."
28 Moses was there with the Lord 40 days and 40 nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. He wrote down on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.
Nightfire said:I think Paul contradicts your argument:Col. 2:13-14
COL 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
χειρόγραφον
cheirographon
khi-rog'-raf-on
Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”, that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.
G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
He has wiped out the record of our debt to the law
having canceled out (AH)the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us
4Having cancelled and blotted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note (bond) with its legal decrees and demands
by canceling the record of debt
having blotted out the bond written in ordinances
4 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations
14He canceled the record that contained the charges against us
14God wiped out the charges that were against us for disobeying the Law of Moses
14. Written code. A business term, meaning a certificate of indebtedness in the debtor's handwritting. Paul uses it as a designation for the mosaic law, with all its regulations, under which everyone is a debtor to God.
Deut 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Rom. 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
The "written code, with its regulations", clearly refers to the law from which we have been released, not the covenant or the promises. "...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law" (Gal. 5:18). Why else would Paul consider it a threat to say: "who lets himself be circumcised ... is obligated to obey the whole law"? (v.3)
And what is wrong with being set apart from the Jews? Didn't Jesus himself start that tradition, which was continued by the apostles? Christian persecution was a given before Constantine put a stop to it by making Christianity legitimate. How would distancing themselves from the Jews help their cause?
Jerusalem was in gentile hands before and after the destruction of the Temple - but while Christians could be reasonably tolerated as a sect of Judaism, after the Jewish patronage had been removed, they were persecuted simply as atheists (i.e. not believing in the Roman gods - as we see in Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan). There is also no "new gentile administration" in the church, since it fled from Jerusalem intact (as God promised it would, and Jesus assures us in Revelations - 90AD).
The Bishop makes specific reference to the fifteen Judaeo-Christian
bishops who administered the Church of Jerusalem up to A.D. 135 and who
up to that time had practiced the Quartodeciman Passover since they based
themselves on a document known as the Apostolic Constitutions— diataseis
ton apostolon— where the following rule is given: “you shall not change the
calculation of time, but you shall celebrate it at the same time as your brethren
who came out from the circumcision. With them observe the Passover.”
Act 18:2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them.
Act 24:5 For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.
Act 24:6 He even tried to profane the temple, but we seized him.
Act 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree
because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in
circumcision, the Sabbath, and the other things."
"By birth they are Jews and they dedicate themselves to the Law and submit to
circumcision."
After the dearly bought victory in 135, Hadrian received for the second time the title of "imperator," as inscriptions show. Now only could he resume the building, on the ruins of Jerusalem, of the city Ælia Capitolina, called after him and dedicated to Jupiter Capitolinus. A series of magnificent edifices that Hadrian erected in Jerusalem are enumerated in a source that gathered its information probably from Julianus Africanus ("Chron. Paschale," ed. Dindorf, i. 474; "J. Q. R." xiv. 748). The temple of Jupiter towered on the site of the ancient Temple, with a statue of Hadrian in the interior (Jerome, Comm. on Isaiah ii. 9). The Jews now passed through a period of bitter persecution; Sabbaths, festivals, the study of the Torah, and circumcision were interdicted, and it seemed as if Hadrian desired to annihilate the Jewish people. His anger fell upon all the Jews of his empire, for he imposed upon them an oppressive poll-tax (Appian, "Syrian War," § 50).
The church grows, and the need for a collected canon and frequent councils become apparent. The council wasn't some state-run institution disconnected from and possibly undermining the church - they represented the church. Leaders were selected by the clear principles set out by the apostles, and they simply exercized their authority (the "keys" Jesus gave to the church).
You are apparently viewing this from the perspective that there was some kind of great conspiracy (no doubt reasoning from the present backwards, like the Mormons do to prove the "great apostasy": things are not as we think they should be, therefore there must have been some grand corruption).
The council - like the individual voices that preceded it - pointed out that there were parallel traditions: Christians keeping the sabbath according to Jewish tradition, and keeping the Sunday according to "ancient" Christian tradition. For the sake of unity and clarity, there was a need for further councils like the first one in Jerusalem. There were similar differences regarding the paschal feasts, the observances of moons and days (or not), religious dietary requirements, and even of denominations (Paul/Apollos/Cephas/Christ). These differences already existed in Paul's time, and we can see how he addressed all of them. If he had reservations about gentiles who did not keep the sabbath, or kept both the sunday and the sabbath, it stands to reason that he would have weeded it out at the root - as he did with circumcision - but he didn't.
Peter (Cephas) was head of the church in Rome, and Apollos (who "watered what Paul planted") was head of the church in Alexandria, where the tradition of keeping the Sunday originated. Paul had no problem with their teachings, and when he did, he corrected them (Gal. 2:11-16). It is significant that there it was the Jews who shied away from the gentile believers or forced them to follow Jewish customs, and they were reprimanded.
It is only logical that the Bible reflects Jewish tradition, and through it establish the foundation of what was to become the Christian tradition. The new covenant Jesus heralded through his resurrection was the catalyst for this change. The New Testament is a record surrounding the acts of Jesus and his first apostles, not a canon of tradition. The Jewish Pascha gave way to the Eucharist without Jesus expressly announcing it "replaced", and under Peter and Paul's direction the intention of circumcision was superceded by baptism (Col. 2:11-12).
’‘To observe these changes, we have the history of the church, and there is no evidence of any conspiracy by so-called "gentiles" (as if, after Christ, there could be anything inherently wrong with being a gentile) to use Christianity as a convenient anti-semitic platfrom. That is a recent invention, and a convenient one, seeing that the Bible is 90% Jewish. It seems more likely that this trend is simply a continuation of the Judaizing influences that have always been part of the church. Paul was critical of this tendency, and explicitly includes the old sabbath observance as a stumbling block in Gal. 4:9-11 (also Col. 2:16 - cf.
Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!
Gal 4:11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Sabbath was original to the Jews, and continued by those Jews who became Christians. They "remembered the sabbath day" (of the old creation) by celebrating God's rest on the seventh day of creation. The seventh day of the week is a copy, a shadow of the day of creation - not in itself meaningful. Christians who believe enter the reality of that rest - present tense (Heb. 4:3). The second-century fathers show that the vast majority of Christians met on Sunday and did not keep the Sabbath (110AD). They give no clues that would suggest that Sunday was a recent innovation.
The Arians, as we have said, held their meetings without the city. As often therefore as the festal days occurredI mean Saturday[1] and Lords dayin each week, on which assemblies are usually held in the churches, they congregated within the city gates about the public squares, and sang responsive verses adapted to the Arian heresy (Socrates' Ecclesiastical History, Book 6, Chapter 8, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume 3, p. 144)
Sunday worship is a consequence of the new covenant. Therefore it is not and can never be simple a "moved Sabbath", as if Jesus made no difference. Before Jesus' resurrection, there are many indications of Him and his followers doing something on the sabbath, after his resurrection (and He was on earth for almost 5 weeks afterwards) there are none. Instead, there are numerous indications of Him and his followers doing things on the first day of the week, and you suppose this is somehow insiginificant, or circumstantial at best? Why make a point of mentioning a meeting on the first day of the week if that day was like any other, or if the significant assembly was in fact the day before, as it was for the Jews (synagogue simply means "assembly")?
And just because you think it is impossible does not make it so. With God, all things are possible, and changing our perspective from an earthly reality, where certain days and weeks have physical significance, to a heavenly reality, where we find (present tense) our true rest, is exactly what Jesus came to do. It's not in the gospel, it is the gospel.
Katarn said:As has been said so many times, we are not bound by the legalisticness in the law. Christ came and fulfilled the Law and it is in Him the required obedience to the Law is achieved in Him. So, in Christ, we do keep this commandment legalistically. We use our freedom from the Law to worship Christ and remember that He rose from the dead [on Sunday] and that the Holy Spirit came down from heaven [on Sunday]. The two greatest events in Christianity happened on Sunday, which I find very weird if Saturday is still so totally important now.
cavymom said:The sabbath is for Israelites only:
We are saved by grace through Jesus:
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved! 6 He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His making, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
Speaking of the 10 commandments...
they are a covenant between God and Israel
tall73 said:c. The 10 commandments are not the covenant. The covenant is the agreement between the people. See this post: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22903665&postcount=523
cavymom said:The 10 commandments ARE a covenant... GOD said so
Exodus 34
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]34:27 The Lord also said to Moses, "Write down these words, for I have made a covenant with you and with Israel based on these words." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]34:28 Moses was there with the Lord 40 days and 40 nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. He wrote down on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.[/FONT]
.
Exo 34:27 And the LORD said to Moses, "Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
rstrats said:And yet there is not a single scripture that says that the first day of the week is to be an ongoing special day of rest and worship.
tall73 said:Yes, now look at the context again.
What is a covenant? It is an agreement on both sides. The ten commandments are the law that the people agreed to. They are the words of the covenant. They are God's terms. So they are at the heart of the covenant. But the actual covenant is the agreement between God and the people. That is why in the NT when it refers to the old covenant it speaks of BAD PROMISES. God doesn't make bad promises. People do. That is why it says He found fault with the people.
Now the text makes clear that the promises of the people were faulty. Therefore God makes a new covenant because they did not keep the old one. They did not uphold their promises.
Note also that it says that the old covenant was FAULTY. Is something that God gives by His own hand faulty? I don't think so. Which is why He says it is the promises, not the law that are the problem. The law is still written in the heart in the new covenant.
Zechariah 12:1 An Oracle
The word of the Lord concerning Israel.
A declaration of the Lord,
who stretched out the heavens,
laid the foundation of the earth,
and formed the spirit of man within him.
2 "Look, I will make Jerusalem a cup that causes staggering for the peoples who surround the city. The siege against Jerusalem will also involve Judah. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who try to lift it will injure themselves severely when all the nations of the earth gather against her. 4 On that day"-the Lord's declaration-"I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness. I will keep a watchful eye on the house of Judah but strike all the horses of the nations with blindness. 5 Then [each of] the leaders of Judah will think to himself: The residents of Jerusalem are my strength through the Lord of Hosts, their God. 6 On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves; they will consume all the peoples around them on the right and the left, while Jerusalem continues to be inhabited on its site, in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of David's house and the glory of Jerusalem's residents may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the one who is weakest among them will be like David on that day, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord, before them.
9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at Me whom they pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly for Him as one weeps for a firstborn.
cavymom said:The covenant was faulty because the PEOPLE were faulty
So God says the days are coming when there will be a new covenant ... with the House of Israel
Why the new covenant? Because they disregarded the old covenant that was given to Moses (the covenant of the ten commandments)
Now God tells us when will this new covenant come? It will come in the last days when ALL nations of the earth come against Isreal. When you see, as we see nowadays, all the nations coming against Israel to make war then.... God pours His Spirit over the House of Israel.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Worship is worship, whether its done on Monday, Tuesday, Saturday, Sunday, it doesn't matter to God - the main thing is that He is being glorified through our praise.
To me from my understanding of Scripture, I am able to worship on any day because of how Jesus fulfilled the Law - which many Sabbath keepers and SDAs seem to find it rather difficult to understand this important point of the Gospel message. The whole New Testament makes this clear; I often wonder why SDAs and the other Sabbath keepers stay in the foreshadowed Old Testament rather than live in the revealed light of the New Testament.
We worship on Sunday because we remember the Lord's resurrection that saves us, not some ancient religious command that has no revelance to us today with us being set free from the Law (it is in Christ that the required obedience to the Law, including keep the Sabbath on that set day, is accomplished) and bound by grace.
BTW, others have quoted Scriptures that support the meeting together of believers on a Sunday in remeberance of the Lord's resurrection and defeat of death. The early Apostles did it, are you saying that they too are wrong in what they taught and that you are right [in being legalistic with the Sabbath]?
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