Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

JimfromOhio · Mar 19, 2006

tall73 said:
Paul looked for Jews in the synagogue to persecute them before his conversion. So he knew where to find them too.

Yep.. he knew where to find them because he was a Pharisee himself and KNEW they meet on Sabbath day. Acts 17:2 "As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures."

Oblio · Mar 19, 2006

First of all I note that you don't say from the resurrection. I agree with you, it was a later development.

St. Justin testifies that the Sunday Feast of the Resurrection was taught by Christ and the Apostles. It was not developed later, but rather recorded in an apology to the pagan emperor later. This would be like saying that Christ did not rise from the dead in 33 AD since the earliest accounts were written decades later.

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
What inconsistancy?

Of all the 10 Commandments, one is included as something very peculiar between the JEWS and God . . . The Sabbath is included as a SIGN between JEWS and GOD. . .and ONLY between Jews and God . .

But God blessed and sanctfied the day and rested at creation. Morevoer, He made the observance of the Sabbath as a sign of the covenant. All of the laws were required for the covenant for them to be a peculiar people to them. But this hardly says that the Sabbath was only for the Jews. It just says what it says--that the Sabbath was a sign for them of the covenant.

Moreover the Christians did keep the Sabbath for 4 centuries at least. Someone clearly would have noticed before then that they didn't have to.

Apart from that though you have the new covenant writing the LAW on the heart and mind. THe new covenant did not do away with the law. It did away with the faulty promises of the people who broke the covenant. In the New Covenant God Himself took on all the promises.

I am not a Jew . . .

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile . . .

In Christ there is no Jew to keep the Sabbath as a sign between them and God

Yes, both were accepted in Christ, both saved by His grace as Acts 15 states. That hardly means the law is now to be broken,. In Christ the law is kept by the Spirit.

The rest of the Commandments were all known and understood before Mt Siani and Moses. They are the moral law God has built into our universe. The 7th Day Sabbath is not part of that moral law . . . it is a SIGN between the Jews and God . . .

Since the Sabbath is mentioned at creation it is untrue to say they were never known. But just as with the other commands people turned away from them, so the law was added because of trangression so that what was sinful might become utterly sinful.

For us the 10 Commandments are a reminder of God's moral law, except the 7th Day Sabbath . . we don't remove it when the 10 Commandments are displayed for it is an integral part of the heritage from which they came and reminds us of the underlying priniciple of the need to set aside time for God.

Yet Jesus never said He would get rid of it. Nor did the others. He said none of the commands would fall from the law till heaven and earth pass away.

But the 7th Day Sabbath was only for the Jews as a sign, and is the ONLY commandment so designated, and is the ONLY commandment not reiterated by Christ during His earthly life.

Sign, discussed above.

Jesus, kept the Sabbath and freed it from its wrong interpretation by the pharisees. He said He was Lord of the Sabbath and that it was for man. I would say He mentioned it. In fact there is a ton of information dealing with Jesus' activities on the Sabbath.

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

holo said:
It makes absolutely no difference what day the sabbath was:

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 3:25
Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

And Paul also said:

Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

The new covenant says the law is written on the heart. It is lived in a new way, not by the letter, but by Christ living in us. It is not for salvation, but because Jesus is living in us His perfect life if we let him.

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Yep.. he knew where to find them because he was a Pharisee himself and KNEW they meet on Sabbath day. Acts 17:2 "As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures."

Hehe, it was actually a typo...but the same effect.

THe point is Paul was hunting Christians before his conversion. And he looked in the synagogues.

JimfromOhio · Mar 19, 2006

People worrying about breaking the 4th commandment and forget the 1st commandment. "Thou shall have no other gods before me." Just because we are Christians, think we have no other gods but we do. What are our other "gods?" We all have them. No one is exempt. We should all take a long hard look at what things we consider to be important. For those who are without Christ in our hearts, if we broke ONE law... we broke them all. We all are sinners and we need to be saved. For those who are WITH Christ in our hearts, the Ten Commandments are about LOVE. Christians do not look at the Ten Commandments as laws but Grace of Love. We are to LOVE God first (first 4 commandments) and we are to love one another (last 6 commandments). The REST which the old Sabbath promised has come in Christ: Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest (Matt. 11:28). The shift from the Jewish Saturday Sabbath to the Resurrection Sabbath of Jesus Christ is evident through various New Testament texts. It is my belief that sabbath (a day of rest) to the pattern of work six days and rest one day. Those who restricts God's Grace for christians observe the Sabbath with rules and regulations. The definition of legalism is a strict, literal or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code. In Hebrews 4 simply means that a believer can have a Sabbath rest at any day of the week.

JimfromOhio · Mar 19, 2006

tall73 said:
Hehe, it was actually a typo...but the same effect.

THe point is Paul was hunting Christians before his conversion. And he looked in the synagogues.

Did you mean after Paul's conversion, he visited the synagogues to preach the Gospel to the Jews?

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

holo said:
2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantnot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 8:6
But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 9:1
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary.

Yes, and the covenant was an agreement. The law itself is not the covenant. THe part about the covenant that was new was the nature of the promises.

But the law was not absent. It was written on the heart. Yes, we keep it by the Spirit, not in a legalistic way for salvation.

Moreover, the new covenant showed that the true High Priest and Sacrifice had come. Amen!

repentant · Mar 19, 2006

sparklz said:
Please show me in the Bible where God changed His mind about something. I thought that His answer was always final. The Ten Commandments were engraved in stone! I don't think God would change them. Also notice He said Remember to keep the Sabbath day Holy. He already knew that people would "forget" this commandment, but keep the other nine. Some people are saying that the Sabbath was only made for Jews. I've gone through the Bible and can't find anything that says it was made only for Jews. I thought it was made for man. Please show me where this is. If anyone here can show me a verse in the Bible where God Himself changed the Sabbath to Sunday, then I will gladly start worshipping on Sunday, but I know no one will ever be able to prove this to me. God made it so clear, as to what day He wanted us to keep, as His day, and I don't know why people can't just accept that the day is Saturday not Sunday.

God Bless,
sparklz

Exodus 31:

15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Leviticus 24:

8Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

So let me ask all the 7th Day Sabbaths...should people that work on Saturday be killed now?

Also notice how it says to work 6 days and rest the Seventh, but ever says what day the Seventh is supposed to be. Just work for 6 days and rest on the Seventh after 6 days of working, nothing more. I wish people would stop putting words in the Bible that are not there..

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

holo said:
The thing is, you can choose to live according to Spirit or according to law. Paul doesn't appear to make any particular distinction between the "Mosaic law" and the ten commandments or specific dietary regulations or whatever.

However you do it, do it with a pure heart, for God.

Personally, I've gotten badly burned by living like Paul warns against - by trying to observe the law. "All those who are under law are under a curse" certainly rings true in my life.

It's not like the Spirit of God Himself does such a poor job of guiding you that you need to rely on some external law in addition.
Chill out.

Paul's radical transformation was to accept Jesus' sacrifice and turn from his fruitless trying to keep the law. Jesus was his new focus. But he made it quite clear that the commandments were lived out in Him through Jesus. Jesus is not in conflict with His own commandments. But yes, He does give us a new life in Him, new power in Him, and forgiveness in Him.

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

holo said:
He said the law and the prophets testified of Him, and that not a jot of it should pass before it had all been fulfilled. Then a little later He said "it is finished." And after that again, Paul said Jesus abolished the law on the cross.
God's will doesn't change, but the law was "added because of transgression". It's job is to condemn us and show us sin, it's not a blueprint of God's will.
We are not under law but under grace, led by the Spirit and not the letter.
The law might be good and just, but it has never blessed anyone, and it doesn't change your position before God.

a. He also said till heaven and earth pass away

b. If it is the law's job to condemn us, then why would you continue to do things that God condemns in you?

c. I agree, the law doesn't change your position. No problem there.

repentant · Mar 19, 2006

tall73 said:
Hehe, it was actually a typo...but the same effect.

THe point is Paul was hunting Christians before his conversion. And he looked in the synagogues.

Where did you see this?

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

holo said:
We disagree, but God keeps us both.

I don't think God changed His moral standard. In fact, as Jesus showed on the sermon on the mount, God's standard is waaaay higher than the ten commandments. !

This part is quite true. The stone, external letter of the law is not the will of God. It is the baseline. The spirit goes way beyond it.

ThreeAM · Mar 19, 2006

Tall73 said:
Hehe, it was actually a typo...but the same effect.

THe point is Paul was hunting Christians before his conversion. And he looked in the synagogues.

repentant said:
Where did you see this?

Acts 22: 19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

repentant · Mar 19, 2006

ThreeAM said:
Acts 22: 19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Oh here is threeam to chime in.

Paul caught the Christians while he was at Synagogue, he did not hunt for them in the Synagogue. He just happened to see them while he was there himself. If other wise, then you would be saying a zealous Jew such as Paul would be breaking the Sabbath Commandment himself..

JimfromOhio · Mar 19, 2006

ThreeAM said:
Acts 22: 19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Acts 22:20-21
And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.' "Then the Lord said to me, 'Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.' "

Regarding Paul visiting synagogue:
In Acts 17:2 says "As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures." Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.

ThreeAM · Mar 19, 2006

repentant said:
Oh here is threeam to chime in.

Paul caught the Christians while he was at Synagogue, he did not hunt for them in the Synagogue. He just happened to see them while he was there himself. If other wise, then you would be saying a zealous Jew such as Paul would be breaking the Sabbath Commandment himself..

No Paul went to the synagoges specifically to persecute followers of Christ....Christians. When you persecute a true Christian its like persecuting Christ himself.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

repentant said:
Oh here is threeam to chime in.

Sure is! Thanks ThreeAM!

repentant · Mar 19, 2006

ThreeAM said:
No Paul went to the synagoges specifically to persecute follwers of Christ....Christians. When you persecut a true Christian its like persecuting Christ himself.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

I do not deny the persecuting anyone is persecuting God Himself. But on the Sabbath Paul did not go to the Synagogues specifically to hunt for Christians. If so, like I said, a Paul, the zealous Jew he was, would be breaking the Sabbath himself. In verse 2 you quoted above, it says that he got letter's of permission so to speak from the high Priest, so that when he goes to the Synagogues in Damascus, he has the permission if the High Priest to remove them, and take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. I believe, or I know you read this wrong. No where does it say he went to Synagogues on the Sabbath specifically looking for Christians. Or else like I said, he was breaking the Sabbath...

and if what you said is true, if he broke it as a Jew, why would he keep it as a Christian?

tall73 · Mar 19, 2006

Oblio said:
St. Justin testifies that the Sunday Feast of the Resurrection was taught by Christ and the Apostles. It was not developed later, but rather recorded in an apology to the pagan emperor later. This would be like saying that Christ did not rise from the dead in 33 AD since the earliest accounts were written decades later.

Justin actually closed out his whole section of scripture defense in that paragraph, saying that Jesus taught all these things to them. Read the whole letter and it is quite clear what he meant. It is also quite clear that he DID have words of Jesus on many of these, but not on the Sabbath question. Had Jesus taught it from the beginning he could have quoted Jesus' words, just as he did with the others. But instead he intentionally skewed the Sabbath texts to make them apply to Sunday by saying that it was because of the first day of creation that they kept it. The Bible or Jesus never once said that.

Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

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