Why we MUST protect our borders

[Jay Follett]

Naah, haven't you heard? They just hate our way of life.

I really don't think you have anything they would want, hot dogs, burgers and coke are not on every ones favourite food list,
I think it would have more to do with going to other countries and killing people, it's the perfect way to get people to dislike you and make them come after you, you would do it to them so it's no surprise they should want to do it to you.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

She was living in that 8X10 bomb shelter during the Lebanese Civil War when things were not so peachy.

OK, so...??? (Not sure how this relates to my post?)

As I said in my early post, this had nothing to do with immigration, it had to do with Maronite Christians refusing to give Muslims a say in government proportionate to their numbers. As you know, the Maronites committed horrible atrocities during that conflict.

It had to do with more than that, it was not simply Maronites being stubborn or trying to oppress Muslims. And while the Maronites committed atrocities they were nothing compared to what the PLO/ANM committed.

The real problem and cause of the Lebanese Civil War was a number of outside (non-Lebanese) interests fighting their battles with each other in Lebanon. Much of this had to do with what these outside interests wanted Lebanon to do and how they wanted Lebanon controlled; it wasn't the result of Maronites suppressing Muslims and wanting to keep it that way. The Lebanese people, Maronite and Muslim (and Druze and others) generally wanted Lebanon for the Lebanese, regardless of religion. The Muslim groups that instigated the war were outside forces. These are the same Muslim groups that attempted coups in two other nations that were already Muslim - Jordan and Iraq.

The Civil War is far more complex than the Maronite Christians wanting their way or that Muslims wanted to take over. It is mainly about outside interests and forces trying to control a weak government by manipulation, intimidation, and/or outright force. It is also about opportunist outside forces (like Israel) using the instability to further weaken Lebanon.

Brigitte Gabriel's stories are suspect. She says some things that are very true but she always then extrapolates everything out to having no other resolution than to take a stand against all of Islam because it is all radical and extremist and wants to harm the rest of us.

I wonder about Brigitte's sincerity because I have family and friends who lived through the Lebanese Civil War as well as family and friends who lived there before and after the war. I have never met a person - Lebanese or Armenian-Lebanese - who shares her radical views.

 

[smaneck]

Crossing shopping yes, but certainly not going to the doctors. When it comes to procedures like Lasik surgery which are not covered by insurance in the US, it is much, much cheaper to have it done in Canada. Also, prescriptions are much cheaper. Yes, food and consumer goods are more expensive because of VAT. But the average American spends only 7% of their income on food and that includes eating out whereas before Obama Care we were spending 15-20 of our income on medical care. Now we spend about the same on medical care as we do food. But it is still better in Canada because they keep the costs down. When shopping in the US was really sweet for Canadians when the Canadian dollar was worth more than the US dollar.
The irony about the price of gas in Canada is that they are the largest supplier of foreign oil to the US! When the American dollars is strong I've been able to get suites at the Sheraton in Toronto for $40 USD. (Priceline.)

 

[smaneck]

I really don't think you have anything they would want, hot dogs, burgers and coke are not on every ones favourite food list,

Burgers and Cokes are quite popular in the Middle East. Hot Dogs? Not unless they are Hebrew National, and even that could get awkward. For the most part, they like our way of life, hold the bacon of course.

I think it would have more to do with going to other countries and killing people, it's the perfect way to get people to dislike you and make them come after you, you would do it to them so it's no surprise they should want to do it to you.

Ya think?

I'm just always amused when American politicians claim they are attacking us because the "hate our way of life." How to make an Arab roll their eyes and wonder if we are really that clueless,

 

[Armoured]

The argument is that an insecure border can result in terrorists crossing.

And it's a silly argument, as discussed. Terrorists can cross borders legally on visas. They don't need to "sneak in" because they're not trying to immigrate.

 

[smaneck]

OK, so...??? (Not sure how this relates to my post?)

My point that this was the perspective from which she viewed the Lebanese Civil War.

It had to do with more than that, it was not simply Maronites being stubborn or trying to oppress Muslims. And while the Maronites committed atrocities they were nothing compared to what the PLO/ANM committed.he entire Lebanese Civil War.

For uninitiated, the ANM is the Arab Nationalist Movement started by George Habash, a Palestinian Christian. He also founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and brought about the Communist Revolution in Yemen. I wouldn't say what they did was worse the Marionites. Every tit for tat I can see has the Marionites coming out way ahead as far as racking up the body count and killing civilians.

The real problem and cause of the Lebanese Civil War was a number of outside (non-Lebanese) interests fighting their battles with each other in Lebanon. Much of this had to do with what these outside interests wanted Lebanon to do and how they wanted Lebanon controlled; it wasn't the result of Maronites suppressing Muslims and wanting to keep it that way. The Lebanese people, Maronite and Muslim (and Druze and others) generally wanted Lebanon for the Lebanese, regardless of religion. The Muslim groups that instigated the war were outside forces.

That I don't buy. Israel was doing most of the instigating originally if we don't count Palestinians living in Lebanon. Syrian intervention came later. The Lebanese Hizbullah was inspired by the Iranian Revolution who does give it some support, but the movement was largely homegrown.

I wonder about Brigitte's sincerity because I have family and friends who lived through the Lebanese Civil War as well as family and friends who lived there before and after the war. I have never met a person - Lebanese or Armenian-Lebanese - who shares her radical views.

The first class I ever taught on Middle East history was in 1989 towards the end of the Civil War. All the women in my class were Americans and all the males were from the Middle East, mostly Lebanese with one Syrian. I noticed a number of things. The Malikite Christian praised the literary beauty of Qur'an to the skies and insisted there was nothing like it in Arabic. He got along fine with the Sunni. But the Sunni hated the Syrian. I've forgotten all the dynamics of that class but sometimes I felt like I was trying to stop the Civil War from breaking out in my classroom.

 

[dzheremi]

Of course, they were Maronites as well.

Oops. For some reason I misread that bit as "Phalangists", not "Maronites" (though I guess technically most of the former were confessionally the latter). Yes, of course the Guardians were Maronites, as well.

But yeah, driving around Beirut with Palestinians tied to the back of your bumper, not nice.

Not at all.

Now you want to bet that recounting all these atrocities committed by Maronite Christians during the Lebanese Civil War won't change "Einstein's" beliefs one iota?

Again, not at all.

It's funny, because I learned most of this from Maronite Christians who I know, some of whom lived in Lebanon at the time. So I know that they can be honest about their political past, and a great many have renounced the mistakes of that past. That's part of the reason I find Bridgette Gabriel so offensive. She is not a good spokesperson for her confession at all, and yet because she plays into conservative (U.S.) tropes about how the Middle East must be, some people treat her word is authoritative and honest, even if it isn't. She seems to want to create a situation wherein the Maronites did nothing but get slaughtered, and I know that this is just not true.

And there are, of course, many, many Lebanese Christians (Maronite and non) who support Hezbollah, as well as the Palestinian cause. The famous singer Julia Boutros, who is herself from a Maronite family (her father is Maronite and her mother is Palestinian-Armenian), comes to mind. She sings a lot of pro-Hezbollah and pro-Palestine songs.

Life is just not as simple as either Ms. Gabriel or some people on the other side seem to want to paint it.

 

[smaneck]

And there are, of course, many, many Lebanese Christians (Maronite and non) who support Hezbollah, as well as the Palestinian cause. The famous singer Julia Boutros, who is herself from a Maronite family (her father is Maronite and her mother is Palestinian-Armenian), comes to mind. She sings a lot of pro-Hezbollah and pro-Palestine songs.

The thing is that Lebanese Christians pretty much invented Arab nationalism! And it was a Palestinian Christian who assassinated Robert F. Kennedy because of his support for the State of Israel. Originally the Shi'ites of Lebanon were the least political faction. But since all the Palestinian camps were located in south Lebanon where they live, every-time the Israelis bombed those camps the Shi'ites would get hit as well. That's why they developed such an antipathy towards Israel. I once asked a prominent Palestinian how Palestinian Christians felt about HAMAS. He told me that while they didn't like the Islamist rhetoric, they tended to support them anyhow because they were the only ones still fighting Israel. If there is one thing Lebanon teaches us is that these conflicts are not really all that religious in nature. This idea of Muslims out to conquer the world is just us vs. them nonsense, a holdover from the Cold War, only the names have changed. As Edward Said (another Palestinian Christian) put it in his book Covering Islam, we have now made Islam the great "other" to replace Communism.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The thing is that Lebanese Christians pretty much invented Arab nationalism! And it was a Palestinian Christian who assassinated Robert F. Kennedy because of his support for the State of Israel. Originally the Shi'ites of Lebanon were the least political faction. But since all the Palestinian camps were located in south Lebanon where they live, every-time the Israelis bombed those camps the Shi'ites would get hit as well. That's why they developed such an antipathy towards Israel. I once asked a prominent Palestinian how Palestinian Christians felt about HAMAS. He told me that while they didn't like the Islamist rhetoric, they tended to support them anyhow because they were the only ones still fighting Israel. If there is one thing Lebanon teaches us is that these conflicts are not really all that religious in nature. This idea of Muslims out to conquer the world is just us vs. them nonsense, a holdover from the Cold War, only the names have changed. As Edward Said (another Palestinian Christian) put it in his book Covering Islam, we have now made Islam the great "other" to replace Communism.

I don't have much of a problem with your post other than the first two sentences which are pretty typical of your well-known anti-Christian bias.

"Lebanese Christians" did not "pretty much [invent] Arab Nationalism" just because there were Arabic Christians involved in creating Arab Nationalism. The Christian interest in Arab Nationalism had more to do with anti-Ottoman motives whereas Muslim Arab Nationalists didn't mind Ottoman rule so much. Lebanese Arab Nationalists cared more about an independent Lebanon free from the Ottoman rule.

As for Sirhan Sirhan who assasinated Kennedy, while he was born into Christianity he became an occultist and was an occultist when he killed Kennedy. Even if he weren't, even if he were still a "Christian", you think one man's depraved act is some kind of evidence that all or most Arab Christians "invented" Pan Arab Nationalism?

I'm just waiting for the pro-Turkish angle from you and then it will all be complete...

 

[ArmenianJohn]

My point that this was the perspective from which she viewed the Lebanese Civil War.

Or so she says, anyway. Her critics seem to think she exaggerates her perspective and that her life was not what she makes it out to be during the war. I know plenty of people, including family, who lived through the war and while it was no walk in the park it wasn't quite as dire for them as she makes her past to be.

For uninitiated, the ANM is the Arab Nationalist Movement started by George Habash, a Palestinian Christian. He also founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and brought about the Communist Revolution in Yemen. I wouldn't say what they did was worse the Marionites. Every tit for tat I can see has the Marionites coming out way ahead as far as racking up the body count and killing civilians.

I wouldn't say what the Maronites did was worse than the PLO - the PLO did their fair share of atrocities against Christians and other muslims as well.

That I don't buy. Israel was doing most of the instigating originally if we don't count Palestinians living in Lebanon. Syrian intervention came later. The Lebanese Hizbullah was inspired by the Iranian Revolution who does give it some support, but the movement was largely homegrown.

So you don't buy that outside interests and forces were mostly responsible for the Civil War in Lebanon then you go on to list three outside interests while ignoring others like Nasser/Egypt... So, it's fine if you choose not to buy it but you did support it, albeit unwittingly.

The first class I ever taught on Middle East history was in 1989 towards the end of the Civil War. All the women in my class were Americans and all the males were from the Middle East, mostly Lebanese with one Syrian. I noticed a number of things. The Malikite Christian praised the literary beauty of Qur'an to the skies and insisted there was nothing like it in Arabic. He got along fine with the Sunni. But the Sunni hated the Syrian. I've forgotten all the dynamics of that class but sometimes I felt like I was trying to stop the Civil War from breaking out in my classroom.

I'm not sure what the Malikites' involvement ever was and I didn't think they even knew Arabic, but OK.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Life is just not as simple as either Ms. Gabriel or some people on the other side seem to want to paint it.

Good post, I quoted only the last sentence because that says it all. It seems to me that people who like to over-simplify the Lebanese Civil War tend to be doing it in order to push a bias of some sort. When I talk to my family and friends, the ones who experienced it, they tend to be unable or unwilling to place blame on one particular faction. They tend to see all the factions as being pretty bad but having valid points. The most common answer I get from people - Armenian and Lebanese, Christian and Muslim - is "It's complicated". My dad was frustrating to talk to about it - not his fault, but because it was complex for him. One time he would sound like he was very anti-Maronite. Another he'd sound very anti-Muslim. Another he'd sound very anti-Syrian. As I grew older I figured out that he wasn't contradicting himself, he was being honest and I was figuring out that it was indeed complicated and not cut and dry. I also was learning that there is a huge difference between the factions themselves and the people of Lebanon.

It's disappointing to me that any time I hear a Brigitte Gabriel paint one biased picture about it I can't really defend against it without someone coming in to paint another biased picture of it from the other side.

If anything, the point and the lesson learned from the Lebanese Civil War should be that religion is not the real reason for war and fighting - power and other interests are. But it seems people are still all too willing to use it as an excuse to be religiously bigoted.

By the way, great video, BEAUTIFUL music!

 

[dzheremi]

I would think there would be much better examples to use of Christian Arab nationalists than Sirhan Sirhan. What about Jurji Zeydan or Ibrahim al-Yaziji? Why pick someone who did something violent? This conversation is going to weird places.

Also talking about Lebanese Arab Christians and what they may or may not have done in the context of a discussion on Maronite actions during the war strikes me as pretty bizarre, given how even today a sizable portion of the Maronite community do not accept being called 'Arab' (I don't know if they're still pushing that Phoenicianism idea, but almost every Maronite I know or have even talked to -- who granted all live in the diaspora, but so do most Maronites -- recognize that they are a Syriac people). The EO in Lebanon are the Christians who would probably be most comfortable with Arab identity (Melkites...ehh...I've heard both from them, and I don't know enough to know what the general feeling is), given how quickly the Eastern Chalcedonians adapted to Arabic after the Islamic invasions (and some of the individual Arab tribes had been within the Byzantine sphere of influence for several centuries by that point anyway). Of those who would eventually lose their Syriac mother tongue, the Maronites ceased speaking it daily much more recently (16th century or so, vs. 13th or so for the Melkites), so that might help explain why they often still don'[ accept being classed as Arabs). As far as I know, EO participation in the civil war was minimal and did not include forming any kind of Greek Orthodox militia or whatever. To find EO involved in that sort of thing, you should look to other places, like Palestine.

It looks like you too have a narrative you'd like to sell regarding Lebanon and its civil war, Smaneck.

 

[Tiny Bible]

Uh, no. Because most of the immigrants coming through our southern border are from Central America. If Mexico was more effective at prosecuting their own immigration laws, those Central Americans wouldn't be able to get here in the first place.

Um, you don't know the difference between immigrating to and traveling through Mexico. Or the fact that Mexico is perfectly OK with central American's invading across our border as they pass through Mexico.

Obviously. Or, as you said, Mexico would arrest those who are trespassing into Mexico in order to make it into America.

 

[smaneck]

I don't have much of a problem with your post other than the first two sentences which are pretty typical of your well-known anti-Christian bias.

It has nothing to do with anti-Christian. My point is that historically Arab Christians have shared the same anti-zionist sentiments as their Muslims counterparts. And in my opinion they are right to do so, though I don't always approve of the way they do it.

"Lebanese Christians" did not "pretty much [invent] Arab Nationalism" just because there were Arabic Christians involved in creating Arab Nationalism. The Christian interest in Arab Nationalism had more to do with anti-Ottoman motives whereas Muslim Arab Nationalists didn't mind Ottoman rule so much. Lebanese Arab Nationalists cared more about an independent Lebanon free from the Ottoman rule.

There was no discussion of an independent Lebanon during the time of the Ottoman Empire. Arab Nationalism was born at the Syrian Protestant College, now the American University of Beirut. Presbyterian missionaries had instilled in their young charges a love for Arab literature and a strong ethnic identity.
The Arab Awakening: The Story Of The Arab National Movement. The author is an Arab Christian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Antonius

As for Sirhan Sirhan who assasinated Kennedy, while he was born into Christianity he became an occultist and was an occultist when he killed Kennedy. Even if he weren't, even if he were still a "Christian", you think one man's depraved act is some kind of evidence that all or most Arab Christians "invented" Pan Arab Nationalism?

You're not getting it. None of this has anything to do with what people believe or don't believe. Right or wrong, in the Middle East is all about which community you belong to. Why do you think all of those former Iraqi Baathists joined ISIS? Do you really think they had a Muslim version of being 'born again'?

The reason I keep bringing up what Arab Christians have done is to illustrate just how little this has to do with religion. George Habash was a Communist. If Edward SAid had any personal religious beliefs, I don't know about them. Makes no difference. In the Middle East they were still a Christian. Until you understand this nothing in the Middle East makes any sense.

 

[smaneck]

I wouldn't say what the Maronites did was worse than the PLO - the PLO did their fair share of atrocities against Christians and other muslims as well.

My comments were based solely on the math.

So you don't buy that outside interests and forces were mostly responsible for the Civil War in Lebanon then you go on to list three outside interests while ignoring others like Nasser/Egypt... So, it's fine if you choose not to buy it but you did support it, albeit unwittingly.

Uh, Gamal Nasser died five years before the Lebanese Civil War broke out.

I'm not sure what the Malikites' involvement ever was and I didn't think they even knew Arabic, but OK.

What other language would the Malikites have spoken? They make up about 5% of the population of Lebanon and have about the highest education level. They are passionately proud of their Arabic heritage.

 

[smaneck]

I would think there would be much better examples to use of Christian Arab nationalists than Sirhan Sirhan. What about Jurji Zeydan or Ibrahim al-Yaziji? Why pick someone who did something violent?

Only because people are all too quick to label Muslims as the uniquely violent community.

Also talking about Lebanese Arab Christians and what they may or may not have done in the context of a discussion on Maronite actions during the war strikes me as pretty bizarre, given how even today a sizable portion of the Maronite community do not accept being called 'Arab'

Yet two generations ago they were the champions of Arab Nationalism!

given how quickly the Eastern Chalcedonians adapted to Arabic after the Islamic invasions (and some of the individual Arab tribes had been within the Byzantine sphere of influence for several centuries by that point anyway). Of those who would eventually lose their Syriac mother tongue, the Maronites ceased speaking it daily much more recently (16th century or so, vs. 13th or so for the Melkites), so that might help explain why they often still don'[ accept being classed as Arabs). As far as I know, EO participation in the civil war was minimal and did not include forming any kind of Greek Orthodox militia or whatever. To find EO involved in that sort of thing, you should look to other places, like Palestine.

There really isn't that much difference between Syriac and the Levantine dialect of Arabic. I don't think it is any accident that Arabs were able to quickly conquer the Aramaic parts of the Byzantine Empire but not the Greek-speaking parts. I think Aramaic speaking Christians whether Malikites, Jacobites or Monophysites felt more cultural affinity with the Arab conquerors than they did their Greek-speaking overlords.

It looks like you too have a narrative you'd like to sell regarding Lebanon and its civil war, Smaneck.

I'm just old enough to remember what happened.

 

[smaneck]

If anything, the point and the lesson learned from the Lebanese Civil War should be that religion is not the real reason for war and fighting - power and other interests are. But it seems people are still all too willing to use it as an excuse to be religiously bigoted.
By the way, great video, BEAUTIFUL music!

If you had been paying attention to what I actually said instead of looking for my supposed anti-Christian bias you would have realized that is what I've been saying all along.

 

[dzheremi]

Only because people are all too quick to label Muslims as the uniquely violent community.

Uh...yeah...as I would have suspected. "You guys do it too!"

Yet two generations ago they were the champions of Arab Nationalism!

And 10-15 generations ago, they still spoke Syriac as their mother tongue. What's your point? Are you English because you're typing in English? Especially since they recognize Arabic as being forced on them, I don't think this is a very respectful road to go down.

There really isn't that much difference between Syriac and the Levantine dialect of Arabic.

Yes, because Syriac was the predominant language of the Levantine area before the Muslim Arab invasions.

I don't think it is any accident that Arabs were able to quickly conquer the Aramaic parts of the Byzantine Empire but not the Greek-speaking parts. I think Aramaic speaking Christians whether Malikites, Jacobites or Monophysites felt more cultural affinity with the Arab conquerors than they did their Greek-speaking overlords.

Speaking as a "Monophysite" who has studied his church's history, you couldn't be more wrong.

I'm just old enough to remember what happened.

What's your point? You were alive, so you don't have your own narrative to try and pedal here? That's a pretty low standard. Brigette Gabriel was also alive, does that mean that her stories aren't very carefully constructed to present the war in a specific, ideologically-motivated way?

What other language would the Malikites have spoken? They make up about 5% of the population of Lebanon and have about the highest education level. They are passionately proud of their Arabic heritage.

The Melkites (Melchites, Malkites...not "Malikites"...the word comes from Syriac, not Arabic) spoke their own dialect of Syriac (Christian Palestinian Aramaic) until around the 14th century or so, and continued producing manuscripts in the language for church use for perhaps a few centuries after that. They lost their Syriac language and rites before the Maronites did, but today neither group speaks it, though there are efforts to revive it, particularly among Maronites in Jerusalem. Today, the only Christian groups who speak it natively, in a few endangered Neo-Aramaic dialects, are the Syriac Orthodox, the Nestorians and Chaldeans, and a tiny number of Melkites and Muslims in the three villages of the Anti-Lebanon mountains in Syria which were never successfully completely Arabized do to their remoteness, the most famous of which is undoubtedly Maaloula. In these villages, the Christians use the language for their day to day dealings while reserving Arabic for their religious worship.

Melkite Menaion from the Church of St. Mary, Diyarbakir, dated 1535

 

[SteveCaruso]

The Melkites (Melchites, Malkites...not "Malikites"...the word comes from Syriac, not Arabic) spoke their own dialect of Syriac (Christian Palestinian Aramaic) until around the 14th century or so, and continued producing manuscripts in the language for church use for perhaps a few centuries after that.

Aramaic point of order: Christian Palestinian Aramaic – although it has even been called "Palestinian Syriac" before – is not Syriac (it only uses the Syriac alphabet).

It is part of the Western Aramaic family (like Jesus' own Galilean, and is in fact rather close to it as far as Aramaic dialects go). Syriac, on the other hand, is Eastern Aramaic and a very different Aramaic dialect family.

 

[smaneck]

And 10-15 generations ago, they still spoke Syriac as their mother tongue. What's your point? Are you English because you're typing in English? Especially since they recognize Arabic as being forced on them, I don't think this is a very respectful road to go down.

That would be the logical conclusion of your argument, not mine.

Speaking as a "Monophysite" who has studied his church's history, you couldn't be more wrong.

Philip Hitti, himself a Maronite who wrote The History of the Arabs, says I couldn't be more right. I suggest you read the chapter 12 of his masterful work.

The Melkites (Melchites, Malkites...not "Malikites"...the word comes from Syriac, not Arabic)

That's a difference in transliteration systems, not the language.