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The verse is only referring to Yeshua's Father YHWH. YHWH is Israel's King and Israel's redeemer.
The first "LORD" is Yeshua's Father YHWH. The second "Lord" is David's Lord (Yeshua)
You are reading the trinity into the text.
I thought I explained already, but I'll try again. First I will give you my personal translation based on the Hebrew.You tell me I am reading the Trinity into the Isaiah 9:6-7 passages and yet in re-reading your presentation here you refute, but do not explain why Jesus will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Please, if you wish and have the time, do clearly explain why to your reasoning these otherwise strange passages even appear.
Israel isn't mentioned. Two people are mentioned, one being the redeemer of the other. The Father is the redeemer of the son.
Isaiah 44:6 in English Bibles erroneously has "the LORD" and "the LORD of hosts", but Psalm 110:1 has "the LORD" and "Lord". BIG difference. The "Lord" is not YHWH, but "adoni" (my Lord) and refers to the Son. Isaiah 44:6 has "YHWH" twice because it is the same person.I know. It's the same two Lords in the other verse as well.
I believe there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit, but I am NOT a trinitarian. The trinity means far more than "three". It means three co-equal, co-eternal persons comprising the one true God.Trinity just means three so the Father and Son and HS each called God in scripture adds up to a Trinity so it's not being read into anything. It's simply there.
I thought I explained already, but I'll try again. First I will give you my personal translation based on the Hebrew.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Warrior, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith YHWH the King of Israel, and his (Israel's) redeemer YHWH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
YHWH and YHWH of hosts are the same person.
Isaiah 44:6 in English Bibles erroneously has "the LORD" and "the LORD of hosts", but Psalm 110:1 has "the LORD" and "Lord". BIG difference.
The trinity means far more than "three".
Yes, that is how translations done by biased trinitarian translators read. One need only read the Hebrew to see how they changed the word order to get "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father" and to see how the add the article "The" which is NOT found in the Hebrew.
That's not what the verse actually says. The correct one is here:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The Son NEVER claimed to be "God". Cite a verse supporting that please.Again, it's speaking of a King and his redeemer. That's two people who both claim to be God.
Yes, I know that. Do you not know the difference between "YHWH" and "adoni" in the Hebrew text?You don't know that the manuscripts don't have capital letters? That's added by the translators. So, there are two "lords" which is exactly what we find in Isaiah 44:6.
Which OT verse shows the Son claiming to be "God"?So, the OT does show that two person's claim to be God. That shows that God is more than one person which takes us closer to the understanding of God is more than one person. The NT shows that the Holy Spirit is also God which completes the Trinity.
Of course the word "trinity" means "three", but when used by Christians it means far more than "three". It includes all that the doctrine entails. That is where people err.No, the word only means three.
G5140
t?e???, t??´a
treis tria
trice, tree'-ah
A primary (plural) number; “three”: - three.
Trinity means "three"
(Latin: trinus meaning "threefold, triple", Late Latin: trinitatem, Greek: trias meaning "three", English: trinity).
I'm sorry you had to post again for me...I was not at all aware of such a position on interpretation of these passages and so wasn't following you as well as I should have.I thought I explained already, but I'll try again. First I will give you my personal translation based on the Hebrew.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Warrior, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.He is a "Wonderful Counselor" (Pele' Ya'ats) because he advises us on how to walk in YHWH's will in accordance with Torah. He is a "Mighty Warrior" (El Gibor) because YHWH will use him to destroy the wicked and the armies of Satan. He is the "Father of Eternity" (Abi'ad) because eternal life comes to all believers through him. He is the "Prince of Peace" (Sar Shalom) because he is the Son of King YHWH and peace will come to this planet through him and will be maintained by him.
This passage is written for the express purpose of informing people that YHWH has not left us to dwell in darkness and perish, but will provide us a male child who will not only grow up to become the ultimate ruler of YHWH's Kingdom on earth, but that he will be a blessing to his people in all the ways just mentioned.
I'm not sure what gave you that idea, but I totally reject the trinity doctrine and the Holy Spirit as a third person. There is only one God, Yeshua's Father. Yeshua is the "Son of God", not God himself. Although the English word "God" was used of him in biased trinitarian translations, he cannot possibly be the "only true God" for he said that title only applies to his Father, YHWH (John 17:3). The Hebrew word "elohim" and the Greek word "theos" can both apply to men. So when it is used of Yeshua, it must be translated differently than "God". For, in English, "God" refers to the only true God. The Holy Spirit is the mind, power, and influence of the Father, not a separate person.As we both agree the Trinity exists as three persons; One God.
I agree that is an additional reason for being called the Prince of Peace.I slightly disagree with the reason for the title Father of Eternity which you cite and also see Jesus known as Prince of Peace because He, through His suffering and death on the cross while being fully innocent before God and having fulfilled the Scriptures, redeemed mankind restoring peace between God and man.
I'm not sure what gave you that idea, but I totally reject the trinity doctrine and the Holy Spirit as a third person. There is only one God, Yeshua's Father. Yeshua is the "Son of God", not God himself. Although the English word "God" was used of him in biased trinitarian translations, he cannot possibly be the "only true God" for he said that title only applies to his Father, YHWH (John 17:3). The Hebrew word "elohim" and the Greek word "theos" can both apply to men. So when it is used of Yeshua, it must be translated differently than "God". For, in English, "God" refers to the only true God. The Holy Spirit is the mind, power, and influence of the Father, not a separate person.
I agree that is an additional reason for being called the Prince of Peace.
I do not dismiss anything in Scripture. I simply interpret them without trinitarian glasses on.In denying the deity of Christ Jesus you have to dismiss much of Scripture reference to Him.
I have been a Spirit filled believer in Messiah Yeshua for 33 years. And you? He sent the Holy Spirit to me back in 1985 and I have followed its leading ever since.Your interpretation of these Isaiah passages is, I would argue, slanted in favor of those who do not possess faith in Jesus...at least, no real faith yet.
Wrong answer. The correct response would be to look into the translation problems I raised to see if I speak the truth. You have not done that. You just continue to rely on our current English translation which, BTW, differ from each other, sometimes in crucial areas.Your interpretation...in its entirety, appears to have no real grounding in Scripture. You cast dispersions upon the standard Bible translations which I use and so I do not know where we go from here but to agree to disagree.
He has given me the only answer I need for eternal life; Yeshua. I certainly do NOT need to believe the trinity doctrine to receive eternal life.Thank you for discussion and may the Lord provide you with all the answers to eternal life.
Yes, that is how translations done by biased trinitarian translators read. One need only read the Hebrew to see how they changed the word order to get "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father" and to see how the add the article "The" which is NOT found in the Hebrew.
The Son NEVER claimed to be "God". Cite a verse supporting that please.
Which OT verse shows the Son claiming to be "God"?
Gibor means warrior. El means mighty. The Hebrew reads el gibor (mighty warrior), not gibor el (mighty God)."the" doesn't change what is written. Your translation changed "el" which means God and changed it to "warrior". Talk about a bias.
Verse 5 says the speaker is the one sitting on the throne. Throughout Revelation that is the Father, not the Son."I will be his God"- Rev 21:7
Gibor means warrior. El means mighty. The Hebrew reads el gibor (mighty warrior), not gibor el (mighty God).
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