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Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Godistruth1, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It wasn't created unclean:

    Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
     
  2. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Reference please.

    Two angels cannot have one being.

    Let's face it, you arrived at that conclusion because they share a common title, "elohim" or "theos". Yet those titles do not make them one being since those titles were used of other men besides Yeshua, yet they are not part of the one true God.

    The logos is a thing (the Father's spoken words, thoughts, will, etc.). It was never a living being until it was made flesh.
     
  3. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    We know for a fact that the bride consists of many individuals. Nowhere in Scripture are we told the only true God consists of more than one individual. You are reading that into the text. Yeshua told us the only true God is one being, his Father (John 17:3). Since the Son has a God (his Father), he cannot also be God. That would mean one God worships another God. The Father worships no one.
     
  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
    YHWH had a purpose in preserving more clean beasts than unclean for use after the flood. Certain flesh became food as most vegetation was destroyed. Notice that Noah knew there was a distinction between clean and unclean animals long before the dietary law was codified at Mt. Sinai and long before a Jew ever existed. This proves that the clean food laws commanded in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 were not given only to the Jews. They were given to all men at least from Noah's day forward.

    After the universal flood, YHWH said in Gen 9:3-4, "Every moving thing that lives shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." He was speaking to Noah and his sons (vs. 1). Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. Therefore, when YHWH said, "Every moving thing," Noah knew that He meant every moving thing that was clean to eat. YHWH spoke similar words to Adam when He said, "every herb" and "every tree," shall be food for you (Gen 1:29). Adam obviously knew that YHWH meant every herb or tree that was edible, for many plants are poisonous to man. He also knew "every tree" did not include the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    In Gen 8:21, YHWH said, " . . .neither will I again smite any more every thing living as I have done." Are we to understand this literally? Did YHWH smite those in the ark or aquatic life? No. Therefore, this verse needs to be qualified by understanding it to mean, "every thing living on the ground" as is revealed in Gen 7:22; " And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."

    Based on these examples, Genesis 9:3-4 should be understood to mean, "Every moving thing that lives and is clean shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things that are clean. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall you not eat."

    Had Noah eaten one of the only two pigs, pigs would have become extinct.
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are told the Father and Son and HS are God. I am only proving that ONE of something doesn't mean there aren't others forming that ONE thing.
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Any animal was clean to eat after the flood, including pigs. It wasn't until a LONG time later that God didn't want Israel to eat pigs and a LONG time later God re-allowed people to eat pigs again (NT age).
     
  7. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Genesis 32:30, says Jacob saw God face to face. In normal cases two angels can’t have one being, but in the case of God, yes God can be multiple persons and have one being. As I said it depends on how theos and elohim is used, and you seem to bend it as you will and downplay it when ever it refers to anyone other then the Father. We know that the New Testament refers to all members of the Trinity as God in the sense of divinity. The Word Was God, it isn’t a thing and it was always a living being.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Yes, I know that is what you are trying to do, but you are not succeeding because you are not providing Scripture. You can say "the Son is God" a thousand times, but that won't make him the only true God. There is no doubt that the Son is "elohim" and "theos", but that does not mean he is the only true Elohim since those words were used of beings other than YHWH. As you read verses where "God" is used of the Son, remember that the speaker NEVER said "God" because the speaker was NOT speaking English. He was speaking Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. No one in Scripture ever used the word "God". That word is a trinitarian invention.

    The HS is a portion of the only true God, but not a separate person that comprises the only true God.
     
  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Can't your God make up His mind? First they were unclean, then they were clean, then they were unclean, then they were clean, and come judgment day they will be unclean again??

    Isa 66:15 For, behold, YHWH will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will YHWH plead with all flesh: and the slain of YHWH shall be many.
    Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith YHWH.
    Why would these people be destroyed in the coming Day of YHWH for eating bacon and pork chops if pig meat is now clean? Or is it that only believers can eat pig's, but the rest of the world can't? The fact is, the pig was never clean and never will be. It is your misunderstanding of Scripture that allows you to eat such abominable flesh.
     
  10. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Deu 5:4 YHWH talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,'
    Did all Israel see God face to face as well? No, because no man has ever seen God (YHWH). Hosea 12:4 tells us Jacob wrestled with an angel, not God Himself. God is not an angel and neither is His Son.

    They can't have one being in abnormal cases either.

    Only when you try to force the trinity doctrine into whatever verses you desire.

    If it was always a living being, then prove that from the OT, not from one misunderstood verse in the NT.
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I referenced scripture by speaking of the bride and who she is comprised of. In Trinitarian Christianity we know ONE thing can be composed of many and still be ONE.
     
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is only one God and he decides what he wishes to decide. It's a fact that once all animals were clean to eat, then for only Israel some animals were unclean to eat, then in the NT all were clean to eat again. God changing his mind does not insult God or his decisions as you attempt to insinuate.
     
  13. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I agree. There are many things that are one, but comprised of many. Almighty YHWH is not one of them. YHWH is one (Deuteronomy 6:4).
     
  14. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    There is nothing in the NT that teaches pigs are now edible. Please address Isaiah 66:15-17.
     
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Acts 10 and 11 show God has made unclean animals clean to eat. Not to mention there is no NT commandment to not eat certain meats.

    I don't practice Judaism. The people doing these things were gentiles at the time who were pagans and were considered unclean people eating what was unclean for Jews. It has no relevance to people of the new covenant who may freely eat pig meat with no condemnation.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    That is your incorrect interpretation of the vision. The correct interpretation was given by YHWH in Acts 10:28;

    "...But God has showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."​

    The Jews considered Gentiles common and unclean. YHWH corrected Peter's erroneous thinking with that vision. He did NOT teach Peter it was now OK to eat abominations.

    You missed the point. It has nothing to do with Judaism and it does not refer to anything in the past. It is a prophecy of the future in which YHWH will destroy those who eat swine's flesh. He will do so with His fiery judgment during the future Day of YHWH that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:7-10. The question is, why would He destroy such people if it is now permissible to eat swine's flesh? The answer is, it is not permissible to eat swine's flesh or mice or any other abominable thing. You have grossly misinterpreted Scripture. Unbelievers will most certainly be destroyed for doing those things, but Christians will hopefully be spared such a fate by virtue of Yeshua's finished work and because you do so in ignorance. You may not lose your salvation, but you will most definitely suffer loss of rewards in the Kingdom.
     
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Both interpretations are correct. One was the surface teaching, the other was the deeper teaching. God showed that unclean animals were now clean to also teach that unclean men can be made clean.


    It's about destroying sinners and at the time eating swine flesh was considered bad. There are other things also listed that these bad people did. God is not going to return and destroy people simply because they eat pig meat. That's taking the scripture out of context, not to mention out of historical context.

     
  18. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Deuteronomy 5:4 is talking about Moses not all of Israel. Man has seen images and manifestations of God or forms of God not God himself. The Hebrew word translated as angel can have a variety of meanings and we know the Angelic being that appeared to Jacob was God himself as Jacob said I have seen God face to face. If I assumed two angels had one being they would be two in person and one Angel in being. Your the one that downplays any verse that backs the concept of the trinity, so it’s not me forcing it into the text, it’s you rejecting any possibility of it being in the text. Let’s not leave the issue of John 1:1 behind, you need to prove your interpretation from this passage, as you said the Word was not always a living being and isn’t a person. This verse proves otherwise, so I’m not obliged to go to the Old Testament as this rests my case.
     
  19. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Since neither the Father, Son, or any apostle gave the interpretation that unclean animals were now clean, I can safely put that in the trash.

    Yes, they will be destroyed for the other things as well. Since we are discussing eating pig, that is what we need to focus on in the prophecy. When is the time frame?
     
  20. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    This passage is Moses speaking to Israel.

    Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
    Deu 5:2 YHWH our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
    Deu 5:3 YHWH made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
    Deu 5:4 YHWH talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
    Deu 5:5 (I stood between YHWH and you at that time, to show you the word of YHWH: for you were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount, saying,​

    First you say man has not seen God himself, but then you say Jacob saw God himself. The fact is, Jacob did not say the word "God" because he did not speak English. He said "elohim", a word used of angels. No man has seen God. They were seeing angels.

    Does any text mention the word "trinity"? No. Does any text mention the trinity consists of three persons comprising the one true God? No. Does any text say the three persons are co-equal and co-eternal? No. You read all of that into the texts. I do not "downplay" such poor scholarship. I outright reject such poor scholarship.

    Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Trinitarians came up with the interpretation that the logos was a living being that became a living being. No where in Scripture were men ever taught that the logos was a living being. Therefore, the correct interpretation is that the logos was YHWH's spoken words and thoughts which became a living being. Yeshua was in YHWH's mind/plan until it was time to make him a reality. He was then created as Colossians 1:15 states.

    Assuming that the logos was a living being, explain how that living being became a living being in Miriam's womb. Was he miniaturized and put in her womb? That would make her a surrogate mother and Yeshua would have no lineage back to David. The logos became flesh. The spoken words, thoughts, plan of YHWH became flesh when He spoke His Son into existence by providing the necessary DNA to fertilize her egg to produce a male child of the lineage of David. That would not be the first time He spoke life into existence. All life in Genesis 1, except Adam and Eve, was spoken into existence as well. When Elohim said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind:", He spoke those creatures into existence.
     
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