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Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Godistruth1, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Yes your right. Unlike in Islam Christianity actually admits to such things as "Doctrinal Development" especially coming from Revelation etc.
     
  2. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Because God is our Father. And a good Father only gives his children what they can understand and do so when it is age appropriate!
     
  3. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Word was God means the Word is a person not a thing. And the Word became flesh and this Word was the only Son of the Father as seen in John 1:14. So Jesus Was the Word that took on flesh as we see in both scripture and the early Church.

    We still don’t become God that’s polytheism we only become like him.

    I accept scripture as it is and how the Church of Christ and the Apostles interprets it, I don’t follow things blindly.

    Believers don’t die as unbelievers do, they go to paradise and dwell in God’s presence until the final judgement in which they can be united to the full presence of God, so Mary isn’t dead.

    You can read more on Indulgences here:

    A Primer on Indulgences

    The bread remained bread in image and texture do did the wine when Jesus transformed it into his blood and wine, it’s logic it doesn’t need to be in scripture. Jesus said literally eat my flesh and blood, he didn’t mean it symbolically, but we also know that the bread and wine remained the same in matter physically.

    So when a Jew prays in front of the temple he talks to the temple? So when a Catholic prays in front of a statue he talks to the statue?

    How can you keep the law in any other way the Jews did? Christ is the end of the law, he’s not the end of how the Jews kept the law. The law of God Paul talks about is the law of Christ the two commandments not the Mosaic law. The law Paul refers to in Romans 8:2 is the law of the Spirit not the Mosaic law. According to Romans 7:4 we died to the Old Law with Christ and are resurrected anew. And according to Romans 7:6 we don’t follow the Old Mosaic Law anymore.

    Stealing is part of the natural law, setting a day and time aside for worshiping God is too, that day being on Saturday however isn’t part of the natural law or the law of the spirit it is part of the written law which we are no longer under. The reason God forbade swines flesh was to differentiate Israel from their spiritually unclean pagan neighbors. God however has made things previously unclean, clean, including Gentiles.

    Elizabeth had only one Lord which is God and so do I, so I have every right to call Mary the Theotokos, the Mother and bearer of God. God has no mother, God in the flesh as Christ however does.

    As I’ve demonstrated the Son is also called God, and also I believe the Father is the Only true God and so is the Son.
     
  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I never said we become God.

    You accept how Scripture was translated into English and how deceived churches interpret it. The Apostle's interpretation is far different.

    Next you will be telling me that watermelons are really blue inside, but turn red when you cut them exposing the interior to air.

    Jews talk to God. Catholics talk to whichever saint they are standing before which is why they pray the "Hail Mary" while standing/kneeling before a statue of Mary. Or why they pray for safe travels to the dumb statue sitting on their car's dashboard.

    The Jews in Paul's day kept the law to be saved and be made righteous. I do neither.

    There are far more NT laws than just two. In fact, there are far more NT laws than OT laws.

    The laws of Romans 8:2 are principles, not the Mosaic Law; the principle of sin bringing forth death and the principle of the indwelling Spirit bringing forth life.

    We died to the condemnation of the Mosaic Law, not the Law itself. That is why even you believe we are to keep the two greatest OT commandments as well as at least nine of the Ten.

    The 7th day was the Sabbath long before the written law existed.

    Swine's flesh was not created as food. Even the medical community recommends not eating swine's flesh. It is toxic meat loaded with harmful parasites, not to mention they defile people who eat it. YHWH made Gentile believers clean, not unclean animal flesh.

    ---SE---
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2019
  5. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There are many verses that speak about how no one can see God, but the patriarch and prophets did see someone from time to time. In Genesis 12:7, 15:1, 17:1, and 18:1 it says that YHVH was seen by Abraham. In Genesis 18, YHVH Himself clearly comes to physically visit and speak with Abraham. However, in Genesis 18:1-2, after saying YHVH appeared, it says that he looked up and saw three men, which he recognized and ran to bow down and worship before them. However, one of the three men was YHVH while the other two were angels in Genesis 19:1. They were called men three times in verses 2, 16, and 22, while a special person in the group was called YHVH four times in verses 1, 17, 22, and 33. Everything in Genesis 18 is portrayed as a physical and historical event, not as a vision or a dream. A big objection that Jews have about the divinity of Jesus is God taking on the form of a man, yet this is precisely what happened in Genesis 18. In John 8:56-59, Jesus claimed to be the one who visited Abraham, and which is a reference to YHVH in Exodus 3:14-15. So there is an aspect of God that no one can see, yet there is also an aspect of God that interacts with the world around us in space and time.

    John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; but the only and unique Son, who is identical with God and is at the Father’s side — he has made him known.

    The God that we can't see is the one that Jesus referred to as "our Father in heaven". The one that we can see and touch in bodily form is referred to by several names, such the Word of God, the Angel of YHVH, the Son of Man, and the Son of God. The claim of the New Covenant is that Jesus is this person.

    Abraham's wife's servant Hagar had an encounter with the person, but in this case he was referred to as the Angel of YHVH (Genesis 16:7). However, in Genesis 16:13, the angel is referred to simply by YHVH. Furthermore, this angel speaks in the first person as though he were YHVH.

    This angel appeared before Abraham in Genesis 22:11 when Abraham was offering Isaac, but speaks as to him as YHVH in the first person in verses 12 and 16-17. Furthermore, in verse 14, Abraham names it “On the mountain YHVH will appear".

    In Genesis 26:2 and 26:24, YHVH appeared before Isaac.

    In Genesis 28:13, Jacob saw YHVH in a vision. The implication of someone standing on a ladder was that they were in human form, whereupon he named the place Beth El. In Genesis 31:11, the Angel of YHVH spoke to Jacob in a dream and identified himself as the God of Beth El, where Jacob anointed the pillar, where he made a vow to Him. So he the Angel of YHVH was acting as a messenger sent by YHVH, yet he says that he is YHVH. In Genesis 32:24, Jacob wrestled with a man, yet in Genesis 32:30, he named the place Peniel for he had seen God face to face and his life is preserved. In Genesis 35:9-11, God appeared to Jacob and identified as the Man who wrestled with him at Peniel.
     
  6. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Oh that is not the only reason, there are allegorical meanings to those verses as well, besides some practical reasons for people who live before the days of refrigeration.


    "...Thus in the animals, by the law, as it were, a certain mirror of human life is established, wherein men may consider the images of penalties; so that everything which is vicious in men, as committed against nature, may be the more condemned, when even those things, although naturally ordained in brutes, are in them blamed. For that in fishes the roughness of scales is regarded as constituting their cleanness; rough, and rugged, and unpolished, and substantial, and grave manners are approved in men; while those that are without scales are unclean; because trifling, and fickle, and faithless, and effeminate manners are disapproved. Moreover, what does the law mean when it says, You shall not eat the camel? — except that by the example of that animal it condemns a life nerveless and crooked with crimes. Or when it forbids the swine to be taken for food? It assuredly reproves a life filthy and dirty, and delighting in the garbage of vice, placing its supreme good not in generosity of mind, but in the flesh alone. Or when it forbids the hare? It rebukes men deformed into women. And who would use the body of the weasel for food? But in this case it reproves theft. Who would eat the lizard? But it hates an aimless waywardness of life. Who the eft? But it execrates mental stains. Who would eat the hawk, who the kite, who the eagle? But it hates plunderers and violent people who live by crime. Who the vulture? But it holds accursed those who seek for booty by the death of others. Or who the raven? But it holds accused crafty wills. Moreover, when it forbids the sparrow, it condemns intemperance; when the owl, it hates those who fly from the light of truth; when the swan, the proud with high neck; when the sea-mew, too talkative an intemperance of tongue; when the bat, those who seek the darkness of night as well as of error. These things, then, and the like to these, the law holds accursed in animals, which in them indeed are not blame-worthy, because they are born in this condition; in man they are blamed, because they are sought for contrary to his nature, not by his creation, but by his error."

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0512.htm
     
  7. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    I must say that the passage above is one of the most bizarre I have ever come across.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    This entire post is based on assumptions and reading the Son into all those OT texts. Just because a heavenly being manifests as a man doesn't mean it was the Son. Angels can manifest as men and Yeshua wasn't an angel. Nor was he YHWH. Angels, as messengers and shaliachs of YHWH, can speak in the authority of YHWH as though they are YHWH. The prophets do the same thing. When a prophet says, "I am YHWH", we don't take it literally, but understand that he is speaking in the authority of YHWH or that YHWH is speaking through the prophet. YHWH also speaks through angels.

    As for Yeshua claiming to be the one who visited Abraham and claimed to be the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14-15, nonsense. The being who spoke those words also said, " . . . I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob . . ." (Exodus 3:6, 15). However, in Acts 3:13 we read, "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." YHWH, Yeshua's Father, is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) and He alone is the "only true God" (John 17:3).

    I offer the following study for your consideration - Theophanies and Christophanies
     
  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    That is what happens when men rely on the unScriptural ramblings of other men.
     
  10. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    "In summation, Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel and Heavenly Father of our Savior Yeshua, was never seen or heard by man. He used angels and prophets to speak to man prior to Yeshua and He has spoken through His Son ever since. Therefore, there are no theophanies in Scripture. He never used His Son to speak in Old Testament times because His Son did not come into existence until his earthly birth. Therefore, there are no christophanies in Scripture.
    HOME"

    I think your Arian Ebionite theology is going to be a hard sell here. :preach:
     
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I stated that it was the claim of the New Covenant is that Jesus is this person, so I agree that it is a claim that it seeks to establish, such as by saying that the Word was God, the Word was with God, and that the Word is Jesus. However, regardless of whether or not these texts refer to the Son, they present God as being a complex unity that is consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity, such as with Jacob wrestling with a man and saying that he wrestled with God. There is a difference between someone acting as a messenger of YHVH and someone acting as YHVH, such as with the Angel of YHVH identifying himself as the one that Jacob saw in his dream.

    In John 48:59, his audience wanted to stone him because of what he said, so they certainly did not have your trouble in understanding what he was claiming.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  12. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Have you read up on the Two Powers in Heaven?
    Two Powers in Heaven - Dr. Michael Heiser

    Or Memra in Jewish theology?
    Targums-Memra- John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.


    Yes that was a verse I was looking to point out. Also Jesus using the "I am" in Gethsemane, with miraculous results.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I have not.

    Indeed, I have.

    The Targum is an Aramaic translation of the OT where they often paraphrased to add sense to text (Nehemiah 8:8), which gives us a good glimpse of how they understood the text at that time. For example, if they thought a passage was alluding to the Messiah, then they would directly say that. One of the things that they did in order to avoid anthropomorphizing God was to us the word "Memra" in place of human characteristics, which is also translated as "Logos" or "Word", so the Word is the human personification of God's nature and the Nefesh Elohim, which is the aspect of God's being that interacts in space and time. For example:

    Targum Genesis 1:27 And the Word of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them.

    Targum Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the repose of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

    Targum Genesis 7:16 And they coming entered, male and female, of all flesh unto him, as the Lord had instructed him; and the Word of the Lord covered over the door of the ark upon the face thereof.

    In other words, the Targum attributes all of creation to the Word of the Lord, so everything was made through the Word and without the Word there was nothing made that has been made. So there is a striking resemblance between the opening of John's Gospel and the Targum of Genesis 1, whereupon John then sequentially listed six attributes that the Word of the Lord was considered to have had, so by identifying Jesus as the Word he was definitely making a connection with an already existing concept.

    Philo was an Alexandrian Jew who was roughly contemporary with Jesus, but probably never met him. He wrote:

    "...the most universal of all things is God; and in the second place the Word of God (Allegorical Interpretation, II, 86)

    "...the shadow of God is His Word, which He used like an instrument when He was making the world..." (Allegorical Interpretation, III, 96)

    "This same Word is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race...neither being uncreated as God, nor yet created as you, but being in the midst between these two extremities..." (Who is the Heir of Divine Things, 205-6)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  14. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Yes I was a member of a church for a few years that had Apostolic lines from the Assyrian Church of the East, one of the Aramaic/Syriac Churches so I'm up on the Targums and Syriac translation of the OT, aka Peshitta and Peshitto.


    yes that sounds a lot like what I've read before in places like this.

    Logos and Memra
     
  15. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I'm not trying to sell anything, just planting seeds of truth. You can put whatever label you want on my beliefs. They are right out of Scripture. BTW, Arians and Ebionites both believe the Son preexisted. I don't.
     
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Jacob wrestled with an angel (Hosea 12:4), not God Himself, but God's messenger.

    Yeshua was stoned as a culmination of all the remarks he made against the Jews throughout that conversation. He was not stoned for uttering two words that several other NT people said without being stoned. Here are some of the remarks he made resulting in the Jews wanting to stone him.

    1) accused the Pharisees of "judging after the flesh" (vs.15).
    2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
    3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
    4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
    5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
    6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
    7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
    8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
    9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
    10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
    11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

    Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua's words leading
    them to believe;

    1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
    2) Yeshua had a devil (vs.52).
    3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
    4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

    Yeshua's words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn't restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn't take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, "ego eimi," but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham. They sought to stone him illegally.
     
  17. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    By disobeying YHWH and adding their own words into the text, they changed the meaning of the text. I'll stick to Torah as it was written.

    I certainly will not base my beliefs on a Jewish philosopher over Scripture. Show me from Scripture were the word/logos was a being in the OT.
     
  18. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    Here are the passages which I believe most clearly teach the Trinity in the O.T....

    Isaiah 9:6-7:
    For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    Of the greatness of his government and peace
    there will be no end.
    He will reign on David’s throne
    and over his kingdom,
    establishing and upholding it
    with justice and righteousness
    from that time on and forever.
    The zeal of the Lord Almighty
    will accomplish this.

    The child and son named is Jesus. Wonderful Counselor is the Holy Spirit (Gospel of John refers to the Holy Spirit as the Counselor). Mighty God shows us that Jesus is God indeed and therefore so is the Counselor. He/Jesus is referred to here as also being the Everlasting Father. The last line refers to this mystery being as the Lord Almighty.
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


    Note that BOTH say "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."


    Psalms 110:1 <<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    And here the two Lord's are mentioned.
     
  20. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's clearly referring to one person only. All qualities or names are reffered to only one person here. There is no father, no holy ghost here.
     
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