Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

[ewq1938]

The verse is only referring to Yeshua's Father YHWH. YHWH is Israel's King and Israel's redeemer.

Israel isn't mentioned. Two people are mentioned, one being the redeemer of the other. The Father is the redeemer of the son.

The first "LORD" is Yeshua's Father YHWH. The second "Lord" is David's Lord (Yeshua)

I know. It's the same two Lords in the other verse as well.

 

[ewq1938]

You are reading the trinity into the text.

Trinity just means three so the Father and Son and HS each called God in scripture adds up to a Trinity so it's not being read into anything. It's simply there.

 

[gadar perets]

You tell me I am reading the Trinity into the Isaiah 9:6-7 passages and yet in re-reading your presentation here you refute, but do not explain why Jesus will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Please, if you wish and have the time, do clearly explain why to your reasoning these otherwise strange passages even appear.

I thought I explained already, but I'll try again. First I will give you my personal translation based on the Hebrew.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Warrior, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
​

He is a "Wonderful Counselor" (Pele' Ya'ats) because he advises us on how to walk in YHWH's will in accordance with Torah. He is a "Mighty Warrior" (El Gibor) because YHWH will use him to destroy the wicked and the armies of Satan. He is the "Father of Eternity" (Abi'ad) because eternal life comes to all believers through him. He is the "Prince of Peace" (Sar Shalom) because he is the Son of King YHWH and peace will come to this planet through him and will be maintained by him.

This passage is written for the express purpose of informing people that YHWH has not left us to dwell in darkness and perish, but will provide us a male child who will not only grow up to become the ultimate ruler of YHWH's Kingdom on earth, but that he will be a blessing to his people in all the ways just mentioned.

 

[gadar perets]

Israel isn't mentioned. Two people are mentioned, one being the redeemer of the other. The Father is the redeemer of the son.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith YHWH the King of Israel, and his (Israel's) redeemer YHWH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.​

YHWH and YHWH of hosts are the same person.

I know. It's the same two Lords in the other verse as well.

Isaiah 44:6 in English Bibles erroneously has "the LORD" and "the LORD of hosts", but Psalm 110:1 has "the LORD" and "Lord". BIG difference. The "Lord" is not YHWH, but "adoni" (my Lord) and refers to the Son. Isaiah 44:6 has "YHWH" twice because it is the same person.

 

[gadar perets]

Trinity just means three so the Father and Son and HS each called God in scripture adds up to a Trinity so it's not being read into anything. It's simply there.

I believe there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit, but I am NOT a trinitarian. The trinity means far more than "three". It means three co-equal, co-eternal persons comprising the one true God.

 

[ewq1938]

I thought I explained already, but I'll try again. First I will give you my personal translation based on the Hebrew.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Warrior, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.​

​

That's not what the verse actually says. The correct one is here:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[ewq1938]

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith YHWH the King of Israel, and his (Israel's) redeemer YHWH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.​

YHWH and YHWH of hosts are the same person.

Again, it's speaking of a King and his redeemer. That's two people who both claim to be God.

Isaiah 44:6 in English Bibles erroneously has "the LORD" and "the LORD of hosts", but Psalm 110:1 has "the LORD" and "Lord". BIG difference.

You don't know that the manuscripts don't have capital letters? That's added by the translators. So, there are two "lords" which is exactly what we find in Isaiah 44:6.

So, the OT does show that two person's claim to be God. That shows that God is more than one person which takes us closer to the understanding of God is more than one person. The NT shows that the Holy Spirit is also God which completes the Trinity.

 

[ewq1938]

The trinity means far more than "three".

No, the word only means three.

G5140
t?e???, t??´a
treis tria
trice, tree'-ah
A primary (plural) number; “three”: - three.

Trinity means "three"

(Latin: trinus meaning "threefold, triple", Late Latin: trinitatem, Greek: trias meaning "three", English: trinity).

 

[gadar perets]

​

That's not what the verse actually says. The correct one is here:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Yes, that is how translations done by biased trinitarian translators read. One need only read the Hebrew to see how they changed the word order to get "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father" and to see how the add the article "The" which is NOT found in the Hebrew.

 

[gadar perets]

Again, it's speaking of a King and his redeemer. That's two people who both claim to be God.

The Son NEVER claimed to be "God". Cite a verse supporting that please.

You don't know that the manuscripts don't have capital letters? That's added by the translators. So, there are two "lords" which is exactly what we find in Isaiah 44:6.

Yes, I know that. Do you not know the difference between "YHWH" and "adoni" in the Hebrew text?

So, the OT does show that two person's claim to be God. That shows that God is more than one person which takes us closer to the understanding of God is more than one person. The NT shows that the Holy Spirit is also God which completes the Trinity.

Which OT verse shows the Son claiming to be "God"?

 

[gadar perets]

No, the word only means three.

G5140
t?e???, t??´a
treis tria
trice, tree'-ah
A primary (plural) number; “three”: - three.

Trinity means "three"

(Latin: trinus meaning "threefold, triple", Late Latin: trinitatem, Greek: trias meaning "three", English: trinity).

Of course the word "trinity" means "three", but when used by Christians it means far more than "three". It includes all that the doctrine entails. That is where people err.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I thought I explained already, but I'll try again. First I will give you my personal translation based on the Hebrew.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Warrior, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
​

He is a "Wonderful Counselor" (Pele' Ya'ats) because he advises us on how to walk in YHWH's will in accordance with Torah. He is a "Mighty Warrior" (El Gibor) because YHWH will use him to destroy the wicked and the armies of Satan. He is the "Father of Eternity" (Abi'ad) because eternal life comes to all believers through him. He is the "Prince of Peace" (Sar Shalom) because he is the Son of King YHWH and peace will come to this planet through him and will be maintained by him.

This passage is written for the express purpose of informing people that YHWH has not left us to dwell in darkness and perish, but will provide us a male child who will not only grow up to become the ultimate ruler of YHWH's Kingdom on earth, but that he will be a blessing to his people in all the ways just mentioned.

I'm sorry you had to post again for me...I was not at all aware of such a position on interpretation of these passages and so wasn't following you as well as I should have.

I am in disagreement. While your Hebrew words for the titles may be accurate...I don't know b/c I do not read Hebrew...those titles do not, in my view, assign your "becauses" or reasons for the titles within the text. Those seem to be your own interpretation as well as perhaps those of others.
In my view these are His names/the names of Jesus...
As we both agree the Trinity exists as three persons; One God. In that Oneness they share these feats and titles while individually they perform their own work...for which they are sometimes separately noted.
I slightly disagree with the reason for the title Father of Eternity which you cite and also see Jesus known as Prince of Peace because He, through His suffering and death on the cross while being fully innocent before God and having fulfilled the Scriptures, redeemed mankind restoring peace between God and man. Now mankind, with faith in Christ as their Redeemer/Savior, may approach God for forgiveness and salvation. The Holy Spirit is visited upon such believers when they are baptized to instruct them in holy living according to the Word/Bible as instructed by God.

 

[gadar perets]

As we both agree the Trinity exists as three persons; One God.

I'm not sure what gave you that idea, but I totally reject the trinity doctrine and the Holy Spirit as a third person. There is only one God, Yeshua's Father. Yeshua is the "Son of God", not God himself. Although the English word "God" was used of him in biased trinitarian translations, he cannot possibly be the "only true God" for he said that title only applies to his Father, YHWH (John 17:3). The Hebrew word "elohim" and the Greek word "theos" can both apply to men. So when it is used of Yeshua, it must be translated differently than "God". For, in English, "God" refers to the only true God. The Holy Spirit is the mind, power, and influence of the Father, not a separate person.

I slightly disagree with the reason for the title Father of Eternity which you cite and also see Jesus known as Prince of Peace because He, through His suffering and death on the cross while being fully innocent before God and having fulfilled the Scriptures, redeemed mankind restoring peace between God and man.

I agree that is an additional reason for being called the Prince of Peace.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I'm not sure what gave you that idea, but I totally reject the trinity doctrine and the Holy Spirit as a third person. There is only one God, Yeshua's Father. Yeshua is the "Son of God", not God himself. Although the English word "God" was used of him in biased trinitarian translations, he cannot possibly be the "only true God" for he said that title only applies to his Father, YHWH (John 17:3). The Hebrew word "elohim" and the Greek word "theos" can both apply to men. So when it is used of Yeshua, it must be translated differently than "God". For, in English, "God" refers to the only true God. The Holy Spirit is the mind, power, and influence of the Father, not a separate person.


I agree that is an additional reason for being called the Prince of Peace.

Thank you for your patience in carrying on this discussion with me.
In denying the deity of Christ Jesus you have to dismiss much of Scripture reference to Him. Your interpretation of these Isaiah passages is, I would argue, slanted in favor of those who do not possess faith in Jesus...at least, no real faith yet. Your interpretation...in its entirety, appears to have no real grounding in Scripture. You cast dispersions upon the standard Bible translations which I use and so I do not know where we go from here but to agree to disagree.
Thank you for discussion and may the Lord provide you with all the answers to eternal life.

 

[gadar perets]

In denying the deity of Christ Jesus you have to dismiss much of Scripture reference to Him.

I do not dismiss anything in Scripture. I simply interpret them without trinitarian glasses on.

Your interpretation of these Isaiah passages is, I would argue, slanted in favor of those who do not possess faith in Jesus...at least, no real faith yet.

I have been a Spirit filled believer in Messiah Yeshua for 33 years. And you? He sent the Holy Spirit to me back in 1985 and I have followed its leading ever since.

Your interpretation...in its entirety, appears to have no real grounding in Scripture. You cast dispersions upon the standard Bible translations which I use and so I do not know where we go from here but to agree to disagree.

Wrong answer. The correct response would be to look into the translation problems I raised to see if I speak the truth. You have not done that. You just continue to rely on our current English translation which, BTW, differ from each other, sometimes in crucial areas.

Thank you for discussion and may the Lord provide you with all the answers to eternal life.

He has given me the only answer I need for eternal life; Yeshua. I certainly do NOT need to believe the trinity doctrine to receive eternal life.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, that is how translations done by biased trinitarian translators read. One need only read the Hebrew to see how they changed the word order to get "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father" and to see how the add the article "The" which is NOT found in the Hebrew.

"the" doesn't change what is written. Your translation changed "el" which means God and changed it to "warrior". Talk about a bias.

 

[ewq1938]

The Son NEVER claimed to be "God". Cite a verse supporting that please.

"I will be his God"- Rev 21:7

Which OT verse shows the Son claiming to be "God"?

I already posted it.

 

[gadar perets]

"the" doesn't change what is written. Your translation changed "el" which means God and changed it to "warrior". Talk about a bias.

Gibor means warrior. El means mighty. The Hebrew reads el gibor (mighty warrior), not gibor el (mighty God).

Adding "The" makes it refer to one specific "God" or one specific "Father".

 

[gadar perets]

"I will be his God"- Rev 21:7

Verse 5 says the speaker is the one sitting on the throne. Throughout Revelation that is the Father, not the Son.

 

[ewq1938]

Gibor means warrior. El means mighty. The Hebrew reads el gibor (mighty warrior), not gibor el (mighty God).

Switching the order of the words does not change the meaning of the words. el gibbor and gibbor el still translates to "mighty God" same as it does here:

Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.