• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Godistruth1, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    All of Israel then saw an image of God, I said no one has seen God himself, but we have seen images of him. No Jacob saw God since Genesis 32:28 makes it very clear that the angelic stranger indentified itself as God. No passage in the Bible uses the word omnipresence, yet we know the doctrine of omnipresence is taught. I already previously proved that all members of the trinity are co equal and co eternal. John 1:1 says the Word Was With God and was God, it was both eternal and was a person and a living being, something your still ignoring. Can you show me where does it say Jesus is created in Colossians 1:15, I missed it. The Logos isn’t some huge being that has to be miniaturized, the Logos is infinite int he sense of being an infinite immaterial being United itself to Mary and became flesh, the living Word that Was God became man. Mary was the mother of the human nature and flesh and in flesh he was the descendant of David, but in divinity the begotten Word of the Father. We also know that the incarnation did not begin the existence of the Logos as Jesus claimed pre-existence many times over in the New Testament. At this point your only commenting to make it appear you have an argument.
     
  2. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    You said the verse was talking about Moses, not Israel. I corrected you because you were wrong, but you just can't admit it. You are welcome for the correction.

    Since when is God an angel? You might as well throw out the trinity doctrine and call it the "infinity doctrine" if God manifests as angels as well.

    Yes, John 1:1 can teach a lot of false things when you read the Son into the text.

    He is the firstborn of all creatures or all creation (ktisis). That means that of all the creatures that were created, Yeshua was the first to be born from the dead. Paul includes him as part of YHWH's creatures/creation.

    As long as you have no problem reading whatever you want into various texts, you can come up with all sorts of false doctrines.
     
  3. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    Again I’m it even sure this is Israel as Moses was the only one who talked to God out of a burning bush not all of Israel. When Moses says Yahweh talked with Israel face to face he means through himself as a prophet of God.

    God can manifest as anything he wants what does that even have to do with the trinity?

    John 1:14 identifies the Word as the Son.

    Where does it say Jesus is a creature in Colossians 1:15? The Greek word used here means first born not first created:

    Greek Concordance: πρωτότοκος (prōtotokos) -- 3 Occurrences

    Had Jesus been a created creature the Greek word proto would be used with ktizo.
     
  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    The passage is not referring to the burning bush, but to the giving of the Ten Commandments at Mt. Sinai. YHWH did not speak through Moses to give Israel the Ten Words. He spoke directly to the assembly.

    Deu 5:22 These words YHWH spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
    Deu 5:23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
    Deu 5:24 And ye said, Behold, YHWH our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. ​

    Because you teach that YHWH manifested Himself as the Son. That is not true. The Son is his own being. God (YHWH) did dwell in Yeshua just as He dwells in us through the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't make Yeshua God. It makes God dwelling in another being.

    I totally agree. The word/logos became the Son when the Son was created as a 100% flesh and blood man. Prior to that the logos was not the Son.

    Yes, prototokos means firstborn. Ktisis means a creature or something created.

    Here is Thayer's lexical definition:

    1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
    1a) the act of creating, creation
    1b) creation, i.e. thing created
    1b1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
    1b1a) anything created
    1b1b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
    1b1c) the sum or aggregate of things created
    1c) institution, ordinance

    Ktisis comes from ktizo which is used in the next verse.

    Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; ​

    Yeshua was the firstborn of every created creature which means he was also a created creature. If it said Yeshua was the firstborn of all carpenters, then that would mean Yeshua was a carpenter.

    We are also taught that Yeshua was "made" (ginomai - meaning "to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being") of a woman (Galatians 4:4). Prior to that he had no being except in the mind of his Father YHWH.
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    That would make him the "first created" or the "first of creation". He wasn't created until he became flesh. Colossians 1:15 is referring to the new creation, not the old creation. Yeshua was not "born" before the foundation of the world. Trinitarians believe he is eternal. Therefore, he could not have been born at some point in time. Of course, trinitarians are wrong in saying the Son is eternal, but that is another issue.
     
  6. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    That’s what your trying to paint the verse to say, but it doesn’t say Jesus was the first to be created either. It says very clearly that all things were created through him, creation can’t create.
     
  7. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    It doesn’t say that the Logos became the Son in John 1:14 it says the Logos is the Son, and the Logos was God in John 1:1. The Logos is begotten of God thus was always the only begotten Son of God.

    Ok so he talked to Israel through an image which is a cloud of fire in the dark. So God did talked to Israel face to face, but through a manifestation and image.

    God does not share his divine being with us, he dwells in us through the Holy Spirit, he shares being with Jesus, dwelling and sharing being aren’t the same thing. First born in the Bible can also indicate preeminence, also all things were created through him which means he isn’t a creature. As for Galatians 4:4 the word ginomai doesn’t necessarily mean to start existence:

    Strong's Greek: 1096. γίνομαι (ginomai) -- to come into being, to happen, to become

    Also even if I interpret it as come into being or to become, it means the Word who was God took on flesh and started existence as a man who was born of a Virgin. So again this isn’t an issue for a trinitarian.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    That is not what I was painting. I was disproving your statement that proto would be used with ktizo. I know full well that Yeshua was not the first created, but I do know he was the firstborn from the dead of all creation.

    Created "through" him does NOT mean created "by" him. YHWH had His future Son in mind when He created all things by speaking them into existence. YHWH had no help from His Son which is why Isaiah 44:24 and other verses say YHWH created everything all by Himself, alone. The Son did not create anything.
     
  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    John 1:14 And the Word was made (ginomai does not mean "is". It means "become") flesh ...

    Good. Do you understand that face to face is not meant literally?

    The Holy Spirit is a portion of the Father's being. It is shared with believers in a certain measure and with the Son without measure.

    Yes, I agree. It refers to Yeshua's preeminence in being the first creature resurrected from the dead unto eternal life.

    Interpret in whatever obscure way you want even though become, became and becomes are the most common translations when the context concerns existence. A being can only come to exist once. If Yeshua existed before he was born to Miriam, then he did not come to exist again. He was merely changed into a different form. The fact is, he first came to exist as a man. Later, he was transformed via resurrection to possess a glorified spirit body.

    1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
     
  10. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    So you admit the word is firstborn and not first created, which is good. God speaks things through his Word which is also God so the Word also creates things. Even if things were created through him and not by him it still disapproves the idea of him being a creature.
     
  11. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    The Word became flesh, however we know the Word didn’t its existence as flesh since the Word was with God and Was God.

    Face to face is meant literally, but through an image of God.

    The Holy Spirit dwells in us, it doesn’t share its divine being with our human being.

    It indicates his preeminence over creatures, not him being a creature. As he is the Word that is God made flesh.

    He existed as God the Word and Son before being incarnated into Mary and began his existence as a man called Yeshua or Jesus. He was previously not man, but God the Word who took on flesh and dwelt among us.
     
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    My apologies. I totally forgot about this thread until now. :disappointed:

    When God created everything, He did not speak through His "Word", but through His "word". He spoke words which are things. He did not speak through another person. He had another person in mind when He created everything by Himself. His Son was in his plans that were not yet carried out. In order to bring that plan to fruition, YHWH needed to create the proper venue (Earth, air, water, food, people, etc.). That is the sense in which "through" is used concerning the Son and creation.

    What does "firstborn" mean to you in the context of Colossians 1:15?

    What does κτισεως (KJV - creature) mean to you in the context of Colossians 1:15?
     
  13. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    The "word", not "the Word", became flesh. There is no such thing as "God the Word" or "God the Son" in Scripture.
     
  14. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    There is as the Word was theos and we have seen the glory of the only son, the Son is also theos. So The Word was God and God the Son.
     
  15. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    God created everything through his uncreated Word which can’t be a thing since it possess the divine essence of God thus is also God and is uncreated and all things are created through it and by it. Firstborn means he was begotten before any creature and has preeminence over all created things just like it used used of David:

    "Of old you spoke in a vision to your godly one, and said: ‘I have granted help to one who is mighty; I have exalted one chosen from the people. I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him, … He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him the firstborn, the HIGHEST of the kings of the earth." Psalm 89:19-20, 26-2

    I’d also remind you that Jews call Yahweh becoro shel olam, the first born of all creation and or the first born of the world that doesn’t mean God or Yahweh is a creature.
     
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    If he was "begotten" before any creature, that means there was a point in time when he came into existence. Therefore, he is not eternal. He was the first being "born". This has nothing to do with the creation of living beings back in Genesis 1 or earlier. It refers to the new creation in which Yeshua was the first to be resurrected or "born again" into the Kingdom of YHWH.

    I don't base my beliefs on Jewish mysticism. However, I would like to see a direct quote from the source.
     
  17. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    Satan is called the "theos" of this world (age) (2 Corinthians 4:4). Does that make him "God the Adversary"? You make the Son who is a 100% man into the one true God because you base your doctrines on English versions that capitalize "God" when used for the Son and because you have been indoctrinated into trinitarianism.
     
  18. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    It depends on how theos is used, the Word of the Theos is obviously the same Theos it can’t be another Theos otherwise it’s not the Logos anymore.
     
  19. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,753
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    No not really he was begotten before time and existence itself which means there was no sense of time when he was not in existence, Genesis 1 doesn’t show Jesus being born anywhere it shows things being made through him which means he already existed prior to those events. You can view Adam Clarke’s commentary on Colossians 1:15.
     
  20. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,021
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    So you admit he did not exist when there was no sense of time?

    Genesis 1 says nothing about the Son. Therefore, it says nothing about him already existing. Everything in Genesis 1 was created by Father YHWH ALONE by speaking things into existence (Isaiah 44:24; Psalms 33:6).

    Adam Clarke based his commentary on a false translation of Colossians 1:16 in which the Greek word "en" is translated "by" instead of the correct "in".
     
Loading...