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Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Godistruth1, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That passage proves that the Son is God which is one step in proving the Trinity in the OT.
     
  2. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's surprising how you consider Jesus God when he himself never claimed so. What people say about him could be an innovation
     
  3. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Is this prophecy declaring Yeshua the Messiah to be the Heavenly Father? There are at least 27 names in the Bible with the same Hebrew construction as in this verse. Each one means the "father of (something)." For example, Abishua means "father of plenty." Instead of translating the phrase in Isaiah 9:6 as "Father of eternity," the KJV reversed the sequence making the true meaning harder to discern. Several newer versions correct this mistake such as The Emphasized Bible, The Bible in Basic English, The New American Bible, The Holy Bible; A Translation From the Latin Vulgate in the Light of the Hebrew and Greek Originals, and The New English Bible, just to name a few. Yeshua is the Father of Eternity because eternal life comes to us through him. And so it is written in Hebrews 5:9, "And being made perfect, he became the author (or father) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Even if you refuse to use the correct Hebrew translation of "father of eternity", Yeshua can still be consider a "father" since he has "seed" (Isaiah 53:10) and he will live forever. Also, you deny the trinity by saying Jesus is the Everlasting Father since the trinity doctrine emphatically declares the Son is NOT the Father.

    As for "Mighty God", Yeshua is a "mighty el"/"mighty warrior"/ "powerful warrior" and a host of other ways "el gibbor" can be translated. He CANNOT be "Mighty God" because there is only one true God which is what using a capital "G" would denote.

    As for the Son being the Holy Spirit, again you deny the trinity which emphatically declares the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit. If they both share the same title of "counselor", that does not mean they are the same being anymore than Yeshua and Cyrus sharing the title "maschiach" (anointed) makes them the same being (Isaiah 45:1).
     
  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    The verse is only referring to Yeshua's Father YHWH. YHWH is Israel's King and Israel's redeemer.

    Isaiah 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, YHWH of hosts.

    Isaiah 49:5 And now, saith YHWH that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of YHWH, and my God shall be my strength.
    Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
    Isa 49:7 Thus saith YHWH, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of YHWH that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. ​

    Isaiah 49:5-7 are the words of Yeshua as he tells us what his Father YHWH said about His servant Yeshua. It is YHWH who gave Yeshua as a "light to the Gentiles".

    The first "LORD" is Yeshua's Father YHWH. The second "Lord" is David's Lord (Yeshua) who YHWH made to be our "Lord" (Acts 2:36). However, Yeshua was not David's Lord while David was alive, but only in this future prophetic sense. These words were spoken to Yeshua AFTER Yeshua resurrected and ascended to sit on YHWH's right hand. That is when Yeshua became David's Lord.
     
  5. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    The three mentioned "persons" of the Trinity are but one God. This is the truth Christians hold to.
    If you are not too familiar with the Trinity doctrine you may be missing that the three are but one...both are true...three "persons", that is not separate *beings* but rather One...therefore one God.
    Deuteronomy 6:4-5:
    Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
     
  6. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I suppose we can "debate" these passages, but I predict it to be futile. You rely heavily upon Bible research references to come to a conclusion and I simply read the Word in context of the entire Bible...which is what I am led to believe is the most accurate approach.
     
  7. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I did not use any "research references". I used Scripture and the Hebrew text. I cited some English translations that agree with my findings. I also cited references throughout the entire Bible to back up my findings. You have yet to provide anything regarding the verses I addressed.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    The trinity does declare the three to be the one God, but it also declares the three to be separate beings.

    upload_2019-4-27_8-35-10.png
     
  9. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    Sorry for the misunderstandings on my part, but I truly consider Bible dictionaries, etc, Bible supplements. I can respond better to your criticisms of me using these passages to prove the Trinity if perhaps you offer your own interpretation of them...perhaps you believe you have done that already, but I don't see it.
    As for the places I call the three One, I may have been over-reaching, but Jesus does say I and the Father are One and I meant it in that sense. I did so to illustrate the three are but One God.
     
  10. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    We call these the three "persons" of the Trinity...to distinguish from the teaching some hold to saying we worship three Gods.
     
  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I agree, but I did not use Bible dictionaries either.

    I already gave my interpretation of Isaiah 9:6-7. Do you need me to interpret any other passages?

    I totally agree the Father and Son are one, but in what sense? In the same exact sense that all believers are to be one (John 17:11, 22).
     
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Yes, they are persons, but is not each person a being? They must be their own being if they are not the same persons.
     
  13. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    What is your definition of the Trinity? The persons of the Trinity are described just that way...persons and so I too refer to them that way.
     
  14. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    You say o Bible dictionaries or helps...man-made wisdom...where do you get the meaning of Abishua, etc. your answer gives the appearance of one who is full of detail knowledge and at a loss for the big picture. Details are provided...great and plenty...in the Scripture and add color and sometimes meaning...don't misunderstand me.
    As for your interpretation of Isaiah 9:6-7, am still at a bit of a loss as to where you stand. Could you clarify?
    In my view these passages forsee the birth of Christ, the Messiah, and all He will be.
     
  15. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I don't have my own definition of the trinity. I simply try to restate how Christians define it. Three persons comprising the one God. Yet, the three are separate persons in which none of those persons are the other persons, but all three are the one true God. I, on the other hand, believe there is only one person that is the one true God. He is Yeshua's Father, Almighty YHWH, just as Yeshua taught us in John 17:3.
     
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Abishua comes from two Hebrew words. "Ab" meaning "father" and "shua" meaning "plenty" or "riches" as in Job 36:19.

    Yes, they foresee the birth of Messiah Yeshua and all he will be. They do not foresee the birth of our Heavenly Everlasting Father or the birth of the only true God or the birth of the Holy Spirit. It is the Everlasting Father, the only true God (John 17:3), who brought the Son into existence in the virgin's womb through the power of His Holy Spirit. He is the one that gave us the Son. He did not give us Himself.
     
  17. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    This is exactly why we can see this strange announcement of Isaiah 9:6-7 as the embodiment of teaching of who our God is...the Trinity nature.
     
  18. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    You are reading the trinity into the text.
     
  19. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    You tell me I am reading the Trinity into the Isaiah 9:6-7 passages and yet in re-reading your presentation here you refute, but do not explain why Jesus will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Please, if you wish and have the time, do clearly explain why to your reasoning these otherwise strange passages even appear.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He claimed it many times and so did others including God the Father.
     
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