Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

[Wgw]

I dont know these people only the one that wears a three stooges avatar and some smug snarky types in the clique. "We are Admiralty" just reminds me of We are Borg"

Hey now, it was Admiral Janeway who defeated the Borg!

 

[7xlightray]

No, you haven't explained them. You've rewritten them to mean something than what they say.

It's not about not being able to see types. It's about taking those types and creating doctrine out of them. God was not speaking to Jesus when He said "you did not know me..." He was speaking to Cyrus. When looking at a type, it is vital that we are able to separate the type from the real thing.

In John 17:2 Jesus didn't say "before the world existed" did He? Yet He specifically says the glory I "had with you before the world existed."

You don't see it, I get it. I didn't see a lot of things either, when I believed Jesus was God. The point is though, parts of John 17, may, or may not be understood in more then one way (though there can only be one truth), depending on ones doctrine, but this is a clear statement Father...You, the only true God, that is in the heart of where you are trying to claim Jesus is also the only true God, and preexisted. I don't see it working for you. If there is any meaning to words, then there cannot be anyone else.

Furthermore, God had already given Him authority all flesh. We don't see it that way, because unlike God, we exist as creatures of time. In the same way, God had already given Him all who were to inherit the kingdom of heaven. His work on earth was to take possession of what was already His (kind of [but not exactly] like you might, in the old days, go to the bank to withdraw money that is already yours and has been in your bank account. It doesn't mean the money isn't yours before you withdraw it from the bank, but you still have to take the action to claim it). Again, I want to say that this is not meant to be a perfect analogy. It is just something along the lines of helping us understand how one must complete action to claim something which is already his own.

This is exactly the point I was making about Jesus glory that he had with the Father before the world was. Yet I'm wrong, you say it, your right, yet the only difference is, you say he preexisted, I say he did not.

How could the highest only true God, not have a say on who sit on his left and right Matthew 20:23? The true God can't be the true God, if he has to obey someone else. The second, God has to obey someone else, he ceases to be the true God who works all things to the counsel of His will, he is no longer in charge. If Jesus was claiming to be YHWH, then he would have needed a very good explanation, from the O/T, as to why he does not know the Day, or Hour Zechariah 14:7; Mark 13:32, else who would believe him? What is he going to say, “I'm only human,” “the human person of me does not know, and I forgot where I left my God person,” why didn't he simply say, “I'm pretending to be human right now, so I can't tell you.” Ridiculous! Who would believe it, yet many do. Jesus is one person, is he not? And that person did not know, and was tempted, has nothing to do with becoming a man, because he is only one person. Not unless you want to say he actually became two persons, and now there are Four in the Godhead, possibly five, if you count Marry.

There are other points I would like to point out from the other thread, that is under lock and key, showing Jesus did not literally raise himself from the dead, nor was it his intention. Jesus had another meaning, which is explained later in the Gospel of John, which he told his disciples to do the same. I guess I should wait for that thread to open though.

Moses served as a type of Christ, and yet we see that Moses is told by God that he will not be permitted to enter the promised land. We can see Joseph was a type of Christ (his brothers, from whom the Israelite nation would be born) hated him because he was to rule over them, rejected him, and yet he became their savior (from the famine) and lord/ruler (only in regard to the throne was Pharaoh greater than him)). Yet he married a foreigner (a daughter of a priestess of the Egyptians) and was displeased when his father blessed his younger son with the blessing he thought should be for his elder son.

If we make doctrines about Jesus based on the words spoken to a type of Christ or the actions taken by a type of Christ, we end up with something like the Da Vinci Code.

That's right, because Moses became sin, when the Rock was struck, and was taken up the mountain; He buried him, but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. This was not the time Jesus would rule on earth, that time was still yet to come. When they entered the land, this is a prophecy of the Church, for it says, they were circumcised the second time, by Joshua, but there is no record of Moses circumcising them; and God saying, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Then, Rahab-Gentiles came near the camp of Israel, and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day. There is Judges 2 they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in. And 2 Kings 17, when Israel, the northern kingdom, was removed from the Land, Gentiles from other nations received the Land, and they brought in a Jewish priest to teach them; So they feared the LORD, yet, served other gods; yet, by doing this they did not fear the Lord.

And there is much more. This is in part why I know, any other God, then the God Israel knew, is error.

What does the serpent on a pole represent? What did Israel do with the serpent on a pole? And what did Hezekiah do to that serpent on a pole?

 

[nomadictheist]

Thats not an apology while apologizing backhandedly, which is accusing me of doing what you yourself actually did Best not to apologize in pretense as this place is filled with pretenders, as are most their apologies (never sincere)

I just posted four verses. You come after me for whatever your humble reasons were, and it was you putting yourself all up there as high and mighty starting with "CONTEXT PEOPLE"

Then you go on about me being high and mighty while I certainly come at no one here.

This thread is about the OP's views, my purpose for posting isnt any of your business.

And hey look ( right behind you) something predictable, another God loving person (from what is called the "admiralty" table a defender of the faith of the Nicene creed filled the room with more air

The Op has more fruit then most of them.

This may be your perception, but it's not entirely correct. I do sincerely apologize for asking that you make your position clear. It became clear that you were not interested in making your position clear when you told me that you were not interested in clarifying to me.

I have seen you in other forums posting similar scriptures, similarly after someone making an anti-trinitarian point, which scriptures could be interpreted as an attempted support of the anti-trinitarian doctrine. While you never in your post stated that you believed the anti-trinitarian position, neither did you deny or refute it. So it wasn't unreasonable to believe that you might be posting verses in support of that doctrine.

Similarly, though you say your posts were not in response to anyone, they followed closely after posts that I wrote and, coincidentally apparently, seemed to relate to the point I was making.

I take heresy very seriously. We're not talking about fairy tales or nice opinions, we're talking about eternity. When heresy is introduced it must be clearly shown, lest others be drawn away from the truth.

I confess starting my post with "context people" was not humble, may God forgive me. I have grown weary of the constant influx of out-of-context verses that are being used to "prove" teachings that cannot be supported scripturally.

I'm not perfect. I don't believe that any human is during this life time (save, of course, our Lord Jesus Christ), but I have tried as a whole to treat others respectfully without agreeing with heretical doctrine. If you feel that my response was disrespectful to you personally, then I apologize.

As far as fruits, I'm surprised you feel confident saying that without knowing any of us personally (including OP). I know that there are many among the "pretenders" here who have given themselves selflessly to others in their church fellowship and community as a whole. And forgive me if I'm skeptical when you claim that the OP treats everyone who disagrees with him respectfully...

 

[nomadictheist]

You don't see it, I get it. I didn't see a lot of things either, when I believed Jesus was God. The point is though, parts of John 17, may, or may not be understood in more then one way (though there can only be one truth), depending on ones doctrine, but this is a clear statement Father...You, the only true God, that is in the heart of where you are trying to claim Jesus is also the only true God, and preexisted. I don't see it working for you. If there is any meaning to words, then there cannot be anyone else.



This is exactly the point I was making about Jesus glory that he had with the Father before the world was. Yet I'm wrong, you say it, your right, yet the only difference is, you say he preexisted, I say he did not.

How could the highest only true God, not have a say on who sit on his left and right Matthew 20:23? The true God can't be the true God, if he has to obey someone else. The second, God has to obey someone else, he ceases to be the true God who works all things to the counsel of His will, he is no longer in charge. If Jesus was claiming to be YHWH, then he would have needed a very good explanation, from the O/T, as to why he does not know the Day, or Hour Zechariah 14:7; Mark 13:32, else who would believe him? What is he going to say, “I'm only human,” “the human person of me does not know, and I forgot where I left my God person,” why didn't he simply say, “I'm pretending to be human right now, so I can't tell you.” Ridiculous! Who would believe it, yet many do. Jesus is one person, is he not? And that person did not know, and was tempted, has nothing to do with becoming a man, because he is only one person. Not unless you want to say he actually became two persons, and now there are Four in the Godhead, possibly five, if you count Marry.

There are other points I would like to point out from the other thread, that is under lock and key, showing Jesus did not literally raise himself from the dead, nor was it his intention. Jesus had another meaning, which is explained later in the Gospel of John, which he told his disciples to do the same. I guess I should wait for that thread to open though.




That's right, because Moses became sin, when the Rock was struck, and was taken up the mountain; He buried him, but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. This was not the time Jesus would rule on earth, that time was still yet to come. When they entered the land, this is a prophecy of the Church, for it says, they were circumcised the second time, by Joshua, but there is no record of Moses circumcising them; and God saying, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Then, Rahab-Gentiles came near the camp of Israel, and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day. There is Judges 2 they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in. And 2 Kings 17, when Israel, the northern kingdom, was removed from the Land, Gentiles from other nations received the Land, and they brought in a Jewish priest to teach them; So they feared the LORD, yet, served other gods; yet, by doing this they did not fear the Lord.

And there is much more. This is in part why I know, any other God, then the God Israel knew, is error.

What does the serpent on a pole represent? What did Israel do with the serpent on a pole? And what did Hezekiah do to that serpent on a pole?

The Bible never says Jesus "had to" obey the Father. He chose to. There's a difference. Jesus chose to obey the father.

God is a title more than it is a state of being. And, even though for some reason you can understand the concept of equality of being with difference in authority among humans, you can't seem to understand that with God. God the father is God. Jesus Christ is Lord.

Regardless of how much you say I "don't see," I can't just disregard the scriptures' plain teaching. Jesus took upon Himself the divine title. He said He was "Lord of the Sabbath." He told the Pharisees that He wasn't David's son. He even said He would raise His body up in three days if they destroyed it.

John testifies of Jesus' deity in the gospel of John, and especially John 1, 1 John, and Revelation. Paul testifies of Jesus' deity in various places. The Old Testament and New Testament are in agreement.

Just because my mind can't comprehend the triune God doesn't mean that isn't who He is.

 

[Fireinfolding]

This may be your perception, but it's not entirely correct. I do sincerely apologize for asking that you make your position clear. It became clear that you were not interested in making your position clear when you told me that you were not interested in clarifying to me.

I have seen you in other forums posting similar scriptures, similarly after someone making an anti-trinitarian point, which scriptures could be interpreted as an attempted support of the anti-trinitarian doctrine. While you never in your post stated that you believed the anti-trinitarian position, neither did you deny or refute it. So it wasn't unreasonable to believe that you might be posting verses in support of that doctrine.

Similarly, though you say your posts were not in response to anyone, they followed closely after posts that I wrote and, coincidentally apparently, seemed to relate to the point I was making.

I take heresy very seriously. We're not talking about fairy tales or nice opinions, we're talking about eternity. When heresy is introduced it must be clearly shown, lest others be drawn away from the truth.

I confess starting my post with "context people" was not humble, may God forgive me. I have grown weary of the constant influx of out-of-context verses that are being used to "prove" teachings that cannot be supported scripturally.

I'm not perfect. I don't believe that any human is during this life time (save, of course, our Lord Jesus Christ), but I have tried as a whole to treat others respectfully without agreeing with heretical doctrine. If you feel that my response was disrespectful to you personally, then I apologize.

As far as fruits, I'm surprised you feel confident saying that without knowing any of us personally (including OP). I know that there are many among the "pretenders" here who have given themselves selflessly to others in their church fellowship and community as a whole. And forgive me if I'm skeptical when you claim that the OP treats everyone who disagrees with him respectfully...

You didnt ask me to make my postion clear you came at me and then said I was doing what you did in your own superior attitude (You are forgiven) Im just saying.

Where have I stated the OP treats everyone who disagrees with him respectfully? I dont even know him all that well to say how he treats every single person who disagrees with him, but so far (in a room full of Im rights and your wrongs) he sure seems to treat those who differ with him far more Christlike then the other way around. I could have missed "his" snarky, self commending backslapping self seeing it was far more louder on the other side of things who just seem to get off on backhanding people not as right as them.

I didnt have a problem with you (at all) I didnt even read your post, I was looking at the throne in someone elses post and thought I would post affirming scripture in relation to the same (thats it) I brought in no dispute, I addressed no one, I was posting agreeably, posting four verses showing the throne, and I am not surprised this is typically how it goes around here someone roars in your face and jumps to take the higher seat (then turn around and accuse you of doing what they themselves have done) while the other people who pretend to love you (and not so good at the pretending part) love the opportunity to pull the dog by the ears and defnd the snark. Then they all start trying grand standing, its a joke. Lastly, begin boasting of their righteous affliations, and others of themselves concerning taking something much more seriously etc etc.

This is like the worst part is sitting through how it just drags on.

Lets just drop it, or you can go again and get some more backslaps in likes, work up some rep for yourself with those who simply hate me more then they love you LOL!

 

[nomadictheist]

You didnt ask me to make my postion clear you came at me and then said I was doing what you did in your own superior attitude (You are forgiven) Im just saying.

Where have I stated the OP treats everyone who disagrees with him respectfully? I dont even know him all that well to say how he treats every single person who disagrees with him, but so far (in a room full of Im rights and your wrongs) he sure seems to treat those who differ with him far more Christlike then the other way around. I could have missed "his" snarky, self commending backslapping self seeing it was far more louder on the other side of things who just seem to get off on backhanding people not as right as them.

I didnt have a problem with you (at all) I didnt even read your post, I was looking at the throne in someone elses post and thought I would post affirming scripture in relation to the same (thats it) I brought in no dispute, I addressed no one, I was posting agreeably, posting four verses showing the throne, and I am not surprised this is typically how it goes around here someone roars in your face and jumps to take the higher seat (then turn around and accuse you of doing what they themselves have done) while the other people who pretend to love you (and not so good at the pretending part) love the opportunity to pull the dog by the ears and defnd the snark. Then they all start trying grand standing, its a joke. Lastly, begin boasting of their righteous affliations, and others of themselves concerning taking something much more seriously etc etc.

This is like the worst part is sitting through how it just drags on.

Lets just drop it, or you can go again and get some more backslaps in likes, work up some rep for yourself with those who simply hate me more then they love you LOL!

I doubt that anyone here hates you, and I also doubt that anyone here loves me any more than they love you.

Regardless of what you may think, my purpose for participating in threads like these is to refute heresies. It's not about being "more right." It's about salvation. It's about God's revealed word. If God has revealed Himself to us in the Holy Scriptures, and people worship any God and any Christ other than those revealed in said Scriptures, they are worshiping false gods. These are very literally matters of life and death - eternally.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Lets just drop it, or you can go again and get some more backslaps in likes, work up some rep for yourself with those who simply hate me more then they love you LOL!

I can assure you that I don't hate you.

I didnt have a problem with you (at all) I didnt even read your post, I was looking at the throne in someone elses post and thought I would post affirming scripture in relation to the same (thats it) I brought in no dispute, I addressed no one, I was posting agreeably, posting four verses showing the throne, and I am not surprised this is typically how it goes around here someone roars in your face and jumps to take the higher seat (then turn around and accuse you of doing what they themselves have done) while the other people who pretend to love you (and not so good at the pretending part) love the opportunity to pull the dog by the ears and defnd the snark. Then they all start trying grand standing, its a joke. Lastly, begin boasting of their righteous affliations, and others of themselves concerning taking something much more seriously etc etc.

Thats a lot to digest.....could you maybe break it down into pieces that I can understand and respond to?

 

[7xlightray]

The Bible never says Jesus "had to" obey the Father. He chose to. There's a difference. Jesus chose to obey the father.

If Jesus does not get to choose who sits on his left and right, but the Father tells him who will, then Jesus is obeying the Father, because he does not get to choose, and he is doing what the Father tells him what to do. He said, it's not his to give, if it's not his, then he has no rights to it.

God is a title more than it is a state of being. And, even though for some reason you can understand the concept of equality of being with difference in authority among humans, you can't seem to understand that with God. God the father is God. Jesus Christ is Lord.

I understand the concept. It just doesn't matter how you word it.
God made him both lord and Christ.

He told the Pharisees that He wasn't David's son.

Of course he is David son, scripture makes that clear. Jesus is not saying he is not Davids son, he is saying he is the father of the new creation, the head of the body.

John testifies of Jesus' deity in the gospel of John, and especially John 1, 1 John, and Revelation. Paul testifies of Jesus' deity in various places. The Old Testament and New Testament are in agreement.

Yup, I thought those passage taught that Jesus was God as well. They seem to on the surface.

Just because my mind can't comprehend the triune God doesn't mean that isn't who He is.

Well, for me it wasn't because my mind couldn't comprehend the triune God. Had noting to do with that, I believed in the trinity for 25 years. The scriptures convinced me the trinity was in error, which started about 14 years ago; when I wanted to do a thorough study, first on Christ, then the Father, then the Holy Spirit. Was not expecting what was coming next. That's the short story.

He even said He would raise His body up in three days if they destroyed it.

Okay since you brought up Jesus raising himself in this thread, then I will post my reply in next post.

What I will do in this post though, is what you said about the word coming out of God's mouth in the beginning.

"You continue to try to cast “the Word” as what came out of God's mouth at the beginning, but scripture does not do this."

Not sure why you are even arguing this.

Psalm 33:6 By the word [Which is Spirit, Breath as we will soon see] of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath [As it shows here the Word is Spirit] of his mouth. - God said [His Word], Let there be light: and there was light.
​

The Word/Spirit came out of His mouth.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word [4487. rhéma - a thing spoken, (a) a word or saying of any kind, as command, report, promise] of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. - God said [His Word], Let there be light: and there was light.​

What happened to the men God sent to Israel when the Spirit came upon them? They spoke the Word of God. When time came for God to send His last messenger, His Son, to Israel, the Word which is the Spirit became flesh. The word became flesh, ...Holy Spirit came upon Marry, ...Power of God, Jesus spoke and lived the Word of God.

 

[7xlightray]

.

If you recall: My question was “Who literally raised Jesus from the dead?”

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,”​

The context: Jesus was cleansing the temple, because...

Matthew 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.​

In another place Jesus said...

cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. Luke 6:42​

Jesus had no mote, nor beam in his eye, this is why he could do this, but the Jews wanted a sign.

So, the Jews said unto him, “What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?”

They are asking him what sign he will do, showing he was a righteousness man, and approved of by God.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up John 2:19.

What Jesus is talking about is his righteous life, that in the way he lived his life he would raise it up, but not literally, as later in John 10 he shows, [Below].

It was because he was obedient onto death Philippians 2:8 ...he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, and we will see we are to do same.

Jesus gives us the explanation of what he means by “he will raise it up.”

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep...17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again (it's important to understand what Jesus is saying here, he did not live for himself, he did not love his life to death, that he may receive life everlasting, by his sinless life and obedience onto death through... Hebrews 9:14). 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power (G1849 – exousia - authority, power of choice, this is not the same power as in miracles) to lay it down (of his own choice, as we are also given), and I have power (G1849 – exousia - authority, power of choice) to take it again (as we also do Luke 21:16-19 (pay close attention to verse 19); John 12:25; Revelation 12:11, by his choice of obedience and sinless life, therefore death could not hold him). This commandment have I received of my Father (who gives life to all 1 Timothy 6:13; John 19:10-11).​

G1411 – dynamis – (this is one of the meanings for this word)- power for performing miracles.
G1849 – exousia – (this one means) – authority, power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases.

After we turn to the true God, and His Christ, our lord, then we have the choice to become His children, ...or not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power (G1849 – exousia) to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:​

Jesus tells his disciples they also have this choice of “raise it up,” that they can raise themselves, and acquire their souls, not literally, but by the way they live their lives, even unto death.

Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death (as they also put Jesus to death, and Jesus obeyed onto death). 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience (G5281 - hypomonē - in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings) possess (G2932 - ktaomai - to acquire, get, or procure a thing for one's self, to possess) ye your souls (G5590 – psychē).​

...your power of choice, as Jesus had, who chose to lay down his life, and not keep it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life (G5590 – psychē) shall lose it; and he that hateth his life (G5590 – psychē) in this world shall keep it unto life eternal (we can raise ourselves to life by the way we live our lives, for we have been given this choice John 1:12).​

...again, your power of choice, as Jesus also lived his life and raised it up, Jesus who is our example.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives (G5590 – psychē) unto the death (Luke 21:16-19; John 12:25; Matthew 10:28).​

So, we also possess this power of choice. By the way we live our lives, we can raise it up again, but all glory goes to the Father, because none of this we could have done on our own, or without God, through Christ. God Who works in us both to will and do Philippians 2:13.

Here are some more verses...

1 Timothy 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that (G2443 - hina - that, in order that, so that) they may lay hold on (G1949 - epilambanomai - to take in addition, to lay hold of, take possession of, overtake, attain, attain to) eternal life (some say Paul and James don't speak quite the same, sounds the same to me).

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life (the end of fruit and holiness is eternal life). 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (the gift is so we can live the life God wants us to live through Christ in us).​

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. ...16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine (doctrine is very important, the true doctrine); continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee (your power of choice).​

He is speaking to Timothy the godly minister, who he believes is walking in the truth, he is saying by continuing in the truth he will both save himself, and those that will hear him.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (your power of choice).​

If we agree on this, then I can show who did raise him.


My other question was “Who glorified, and set Jesus at His right hand?”

 

[Berean777]

Jesus would say I come to do the will of the Father and what he told me to do. Now when Jesus answers the mother of Zebedee's children, he is not saying that he does not have authority to put who he wants on his right and on his left, rather he is saying that his mission is not to overide what has been already mutually agreed by the Father and himself, before he was incarnated. In other words Jesus is pointing to members who are predestined by the Father and himself, that those positions are prepared for. Jesus had full knowledge of who would sit on his right and left, in the same way that he knew who would betray him. The mother didn't know what she is requesting of Jesus, because the decision of who sits on Jesus's right and left had already been done, before she has made the request in the first place. Jesus is just following what is already decided and at the same time had full knowledge with the Father, otherwise he would not say I come to do the Father's will.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I doubt that anyone here hates you, and I also doubt that anyone here loves me any more than they love you.

Regardless of what you may think, my purpose for participating in threads like these is to refute heresies. It's not about being "more right." It's about salvation. It's about God's revealed word. If God has revealed Himself to us in the Holy Scriptures, and people worship any God and any Christ other than those revealed in said Scriptures, they are worshiping false gods. These are very literally matters of life and death - eternally.

You might doubt, I do not, regardless of that (its neither here nor there) its not like I look to certain as being genuine I do not. However I should have said, "click the likes as provocation tools more or less in respects to how they are used around here, which is more to dig at the other person they are often snarky with (and not because they sincerely dig you) LOL! That is what I "should have" said (and how I should have worded it) but I finished that sentence off in haste because I needed my husband for something immediately on this side of things. So when you repeated it back to me (how I actually worded it) I thought, "ew, that really sounded pathetic" as if I was seeking empty words in return to assure me of their love (or of some sort of depth of it) which I was not, that would be so corney of me, so I apologize for that. I sure wasnt looking for an "awh, but we weally weally do wuv you", (sorry bout that) "cringes at that"

Your purpose sounds all noble. I probably dont get how approaching me in that way fits into that, or what rubbed you the wrong way, because I didnt post few verses (agreeably) into the air (at no one in particular) to cause trouble. Not to mention invite a lecture concerning what this forum is for after having been roared upon for my context, followed again by the expressed skepticism over something said that I stated about the OP which I did not.

One of the reasons I often dont quote people is to to try to avoid just what we see here because it often comes back to this (time and time again) even if you say hardly anything from the start.

This is my last response. Lets forget it and move on.

 

[Extraneous]

All through New Testament scripture we see the father, son and holy spirit. I have no knowledge of any particular doctrine concerning the trinity, and i dont follow any. I do however read scripture and it mentions all 3 parts of God. Christ is now seated at Gods right hand. Its ok to refer to the father and son.

 

[nomadictheist]

If you recall: My question was “Who literally raised Jesus from the dead?”

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,”​

The context: Jesus was cleansing the temple, because...

Matthew 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.​

In another place Jesus said...

cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. Luke 6:42​

Jesus had no mote, nor beam in his eye, this is why he could do this, but the Jews wanted a sign.

So, the Jews said unto him, “What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?”

They are asking him what sign he will do, showing he was a righteousness man, and approved of by God.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up John 2:19.

What Jesus is talking about is his righteous life, that in the way he lived his life he would raise it up, but not literally, as later in John 10 he shows, [Below].

It was because he was obedient onto death Philippians 2:8 ...he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, and we will see we are to do same.

I will let scripture do the talking:

19 “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

John believed He was talking about His body.

Jesus gives us the explanation of what he means by “he will raise it up.”

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep...17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again (it's important to understand what Jesus is saying here, he did not live for himself, he did not love his life to death, that he may receive life everlasting, by his sinless life and obedience onto death through... Hebrews 9:14). 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power (G1849 – exousia - authority, power of choice, this is not the same power as in miracles) to lay it down (of his own choice, as we are also given), and I have power (G1849 – exousia - authority, power of choice) to take it again (as we also do Luke 21:16-19 (pay close attention to verse 19); John 12:25; Revelation 12:11, by his choice of obedience and sinless life, therefore death could not hold him). This commandment have I received of my Father (who gives life to all 1 Timothy 6:13; John 19:10-11).​

G1411 – dynamis – (this is one of the meanings for this word)- power for performing miracles.
G1849 – exousia – (this one means) – authority, power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases.

After we turn to the true God, and His Christ, our lord, then we have the choice to become His children, ...or not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power (G1849 – exousia) to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:​

Jesus tells his disciples they also have this choice of “raise it up,” that they can raise themselves, and acquire their souls, not literally, but by the way they live their lives, even unto death.

Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death (as they also put Jesus to death, and Jesus obeyed onto death). 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience (G5281 - hypomonē - in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings) possess (G2932 - ktaomai - to acquire, get, or procure a thing for one's self, to possess) ye your souls (G5590 – psychē).​

...your power of choice, as Jesus had, who chose to lay down his life, and not keep it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life (G5590 – psychē) shall lose it; and he that hateth his life (G5590 – psychē) in this world shall keep it unto life eternal (we can raise ourselves to life by the way we live our lives, for we have been given this choice John 1:12).​

...again, your power of choice, as Jesus also lived his life and raised it up, Jesus who is our example.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives (G5590 – psychē) unto the death (Luke 21:16-19; John 12:25; Matthew 10:28).​

So, we also possess this power of choice. By the way we live our lives, we can raise it up again, but all glory goes to the Father, because none of this we could have done on our own, or without God, through Christ. God Who works in us both to will and do Philippians 2:13.

Here are some more verses...

1 Timothy 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that (G2443 - hina - that, in order that, so that) they may lay hold on (G1949 - epilambanomai - to take in addition, to lay hold of, take possession of, overtake, attain, attain to) eternal life (some say Paul and James don't speak quite the same, sounds the same to me).

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life (the end of fruit and holiness is eternal life). 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (the gift is so we can live the life God wants us to live through Christ in us).​

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. ...16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine (doctrine is very important, the true doctrine); continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee (your power of choice).​

He is speaking to Timothy the godly minister, who he believes is walking in the truth, he is saying by continuing in the truth he will both save himself, and those that will hear him.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (your power of choice).​

If we agree on this, then I can show who did raise him.


My other question was “Who glorified, and set Jesus at His right hand?”

God the Father glorified Him with the glory that "I [Jesus] had with You [Father] before the world existed." John's entire gospel was about showing how Jesus - the Word - was with God, and was God. He became flesh, died in the flesh, and rose again on the third day. Jesus doesn't just say this is glory that was pre-ordained for Him before the world existed. He said it was glory that He had with God before the world existed.

And, as God Himself says, He doesn't share His glory with anyone.

 

[nomadictheist]

If Jesus does not get to choose who sits on his left and right, but the Father tells him who will, then Jesus is obeying the Father, because he does not get to choose, and he is doing what the Father tells him what to do. He said, it's not his to give, if it's not his, then he has no rights to it.



I understand the concept. It just doesn't matter how you word it.
God made him both lord and Christ.



Of course he is David son, scripture makes that clear. Jesus is not saying he is not Davids son, he is saying he is the father of the new creation, the head of the body.



Yup, I thought those passage taught that Jesus was God as well. They seem to on the surface.



Well, for me it wasn't because my mind couldn't comprehend the triune God. Had noting to do with that, I believed in the trinity for 25 years. The scriptures convinced me the trinity was in error, which started about 14 years ago; when I wanted to do a thorough study, first on Christ, then the Father, then the Holy Spirit. Was not expecting what was coming next. That's the short story.



Okay since you brought up Jesus raising himself in this thread, then I will post my reply in next post.

What I will do in this post though, is what you said about the word coming out of God's mouth in the beginning.

"You continue to try to cast “the Word” as what came out of God's mouth at the beginning, but scripture does not do this."

Not sure why you are even arguing this.

Psalm 33:6 By the word [Which is Spirit, Breath as we will soon see] of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath [As it shows here the Word is Spirit] of his mouth. - God said [His Word], Let there be light: and there was light.
​

The Word/Spirit came out of His mouth.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word [4487. rhéma - a thing spoken, (a) a word or saying of any kind, as command, report, promise] of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. - God said [His Word], Let there be light: and there was light.​

What happened to the men God sent to Israel when the Spirit came upon them? They spoke the Word of God. When time came for God to send His last messenger, His Son, to Israel, the Word which is the Spirit became flesh. The word became flesh, ...Holy Spirit came upon Marry, ...Power of God, Jesus spoke and lived the Word of God.

There is a difference between the word of God (such as, for instance, what came to the prophets) and the Word that was God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the word of God was God. You fail to distinguish between the word of God, which is the word of God, and the Word that was God, which is Jesus.

 

[7xlightray]

he is not saying that he does not have authority to put who he wants on his right and on his left, rather he is saying that his mission is not to overide what has been already mutually agreed by the Father and himself, before he was incarnated. In other words Jesus is pointing to members who are predestined by the Father and himself.

The thing is, he did not say it was something they mutually agreed on. He said, “is not mine to give,” and “is prepared of my Father.” He did not say prepared of my Father, and myself. Instead he said, it's not his to give, and it was prepared by the Father. There is no scriptural reason to add “and prepared of my Father, and I,” even if Jesus was the second person of a trinity, because as the teaching goes, the Son is subordinate to the Father.

Jesus had full knowledge of who would sit on his right and left, in the same way that he knew who would betray him. Jesus is just following what is already decided and at the same time had full knowledge with the Father.

In the same way he did not know the Day and hour, only YHWH the Father does Zechariah 14:7; Mark 13:32? Did he have full knowledge of the Day as well? No.

It 's the same as in Revelation, he is now at the right hand of God, no need to humble himself, as you say, yet Jesus the God PERSON, is still calling God, his God. Has nothing to do with flesh, because the PERSON is calling God, his God. Scripture keeps speaking in a certain way.

 

[7xlightray]

I will let scripture do the talking:

19 “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

John believed He was talking about His body.

Of course he is speaking of raising his body, as he tells his disciples to do the same, and we are told to do the same, but not literally! It is a choice, to become the sons of God, in the resurrection, by how we live our lives. We must be faithful even onto death.

God the Father glorified Him with the glory that "I [Jesus] had with You [Father] before the world existed." John's entire gospel was about showing how Jesus - the Word - was with God, and was God. He became flesh, died in the flesh, and rose again on the third day. Jesus doesn't just say this is glory that was pre-ordained for Him before the world existed. He said it was glory that He had with God before the world existed.

If we keep it in context, it will explain itself. Again, for one, Jesus is asking for this glory, and then he says in verse 24 the Father hast given him this glory, that is yet to come. So obviously, he is referring to the glory that was predestined for him. On top of that, which you have not addressed, he says the Father is the ONLY true God. Can't fit anymore into Father ONLY true God. The can is full, but you are trying to fit more in.

And, as God Himself says, He doesn't share His glory with anyone.

I showed you in the O/T passages Isaiah 42:1-8; Isaiah 48:1,8-11, that the Father is both speaking to Jesus, and the refined chosen. And guess what, Jesus is asking for that glory, and God is going to give it to him, in fact, He already did, before the world was.

No, that is not what he said. He said “another,” not “anyone,” big difference.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my [Father] servant [Jesus], whom I uphold; mine [Father] elect [Jesus], in whom my soul delighteth; I [Father] have put my [Father] spirit upon him [Jesus]: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He [Jesus] shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he [Jesus] not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He [Jesus] shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God the Lord [Father], he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord [Father] have called thee [Jesus] in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee [Jesus] for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the Lord [Father]: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
​

It does not say, He will not give it to anyone, He says, “to another.” He is giving His glory to Jesus, not to the ungodly.

Isaiah 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
​

It does not say, He will not give it to anyone, He says, “to another.” He is giving His glory to those He refined, His chosen, not to the ungodly. He is not giving it to the ungodly, the unrighteous.

 

[Goatee]

Looks like cgaviria is staying away from this thread he made. Maybe he now realises he was / is indeed wrong about the Trinity and that it is a True belief of any Christian that the Trinity is very much real and part of our faith!

 

[7xlightray]

There is a difference between the word of God (such as, for instance, what came to the prophets) and the Word that was God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the word of God was God. You fail to distinguish between the word of God, which is the word of God, and the Word that was God, which is Jesus.

The Spirit came upon His prophets, so that they could speak the Word of God. Where do you think that Spirit came from? God! Is not the Spirit God? Yes! And the Spirit is His Word, Power, Truth, and Life. The Word is God, the word is God. It is His Spirit, His Power, His Word, His Truth, His Life. And the same Spirit/Word/Power/Truth/Life came upon Marry.

Psalm 33:6 By the word [Spirit, Breath, Power] of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath [Word, Spirit, Power] of his mouth [His mouth is Him]. - God said [His Word], Let there be light: and there was light.

This passage fits here, and also fits in with Jesus raising himself: John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way [he is our example], the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - because he is the way, the truth, that leads to life.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I could post a post for cgaviria for his thread if the staff say that its okay for me to do so?

Is this okay with staff?

Since folks just want to make it look as if he is running scared from all the wisdom here

 

[Goatee]

I could post a post for cgaviria for his thread if the staff say that its okay for me to do so?

Is this okay with staff?

Since folks just want to make it look as if he is running scared from all the wisdom here

Why can't he post himself?