Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

[nomadictheist]

If you don't see Christ in Isaiah 45, then you don't; I can't, and won't force you to. Solomon is not Christ either, though it speaks of Christ 1 Chronicles 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father. Moses is not Jesus either, but is a type, and speaks of Christ. Nor Joseph, and so forth, though the the prophets and Moses speak of Christ. Even Adam and Eve is a great mystery Ephesians 5:30-32.

I've explained these passages to you, for example Jesus asked for this glory he had before the world was, then says hast given, showing it is as 1 Corinthians 2:7-12. It's been given to us, and Jesus, before the foundation of the world. In fact you will also notice verse 2 of John 17 the authority Jesus had not yet received, though it says “have given him authority over all flesh.”

No, you haven't explained them. You've rewritten them to mean something than what they say.

It's not about not being able to see types. It's about taking those types and creating doctrine out of them. God was not speaking to Jesus when He said "you did not know me..." He was speaking to Cyrus. When looking at a type, it is vital that we are able to separate the type from the real thing.

In John 17:2 Jesus didn't say "before the world existed" did He? Yet He specifically says the glory I "had with you before the world existed."

Furthermore, God had already given Him authority all flesh. We don't see it that way, because unlike God, we exist as creatures of time. In the same way, God had already given Him all who were to inherit the kingdom of heaven. His work on earth was to take possession of what was already His (kind of [but not exactly] like you might, in the old days, go to the bank to withdraw money that is already yours and has been in your bank account. It doesn't mean the money isn't yours before you withdraw it from the bank, but you still have to take the action to claim it). Again, I want to say that this is not meant to be a perfect analogy. It is just something along the lines of helping us understand how one must complete action to claim something which is already his own.

Moses served as a type of Christ, and yet we see that Moses is told by God that he will not be permitted to enter the promised land. We can see Joseph was a type of Christ (his brothers, from whom the Israelite nation would be born) hated him because he was to rule over them, rejected him, and yet he became their savior (from the famine) and lord/ruler (only in regard to the throne was Pharaoh greater than him)). Yet he married a foreigner (a daughter of a priestess of the Egyptians) and was displeased when his father blessed his younger son with the blessing he thought should be for his elder son.

If we make doctrines about Jesus based on the words spoken to a type of Christ or the actions taken by a type of Christ, we end up with something like the Da Vinci Code.

 

[nomadictheist]

Seems similar to this as well

Psalm 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it;
Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Psalm 132:12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

There fixed it

Context, people, context...

Read on, and all will become clear.

In Revelation 5 we read:

6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.9 And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,12 saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.


You see here that only the lamb (Jesus) and the one who sits on the throne (the Father) are given equal glory and praise and worship. However, the people of God, ransomed by the blood of Jesus, reign over the earth (sit with Him on His throne).

 

[Fireinfolding]

So? I am not seeing your point

 

[Strong in Him]

The teaching of the trinity skews the understanding of certain basic truths,

The truth is that the trinity is absolutely a mainstream Christian teaching.
It is taught by Christian churches, clergy, theologians and mainstream denominations any group which does not accept the Trinity - eg Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons - are cults'

The trinity is taught in the Nicene creed which describes Jesus as God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten NOT made. The rules of this forum say that if you want to call yourself a Christian; in the bit in the personal profile which says "faith" - you have to affirm the Nicene Creed. Therefore, the trinity is upheld on these Christian forums as well.

IMO, the trinity is central to our faith; every part of the trinity is involved in our salvation, and without the trinity I do not believe we could be saved, born again, Spirit filled Christians; children of God and heirs with Christ.
God the Father created the world through Jesus and in the power of the Spirit. Mankind rebelled, and broke the relationship that they had with their heavenly Father. There was, and is, no way of restoring that relationship - on our part. God gave the sacrificial system, but the Jews were still unable to keep the covenant; 1000s of animals were being sacrificed and people were no closer to God. So God came to earth himself, in the person of Jesus. God lived among us, (John 1:14), walked in our shoes, felt our pain and experienced everything we experience. Jesus was like us in every way, except that he did not sin, Hebrews 4:15. Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29, and our Good Shepherd who lay down his life for our sins, John 10:11. The angel told Joseph, even before Jesus' birth, that he would save his people from their sin, Matthew 1:21, and Jesus said that this was why he had come, Mark 10:45.
Before he died, Jesus told his disciples that if he did not go away he would not be able to send the Spirit - the Holy Spirit - to them, John 16:7. After his resurrection he told them to wait until the Spirit was sent to them, and this happened on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2. The Spirit was poured out on the believers that day, and that was a fulfilment of a prophecy made by Joel, Joel 2:28. When he ascended, Jesus became our mediator, Hebrews 9:15. He took our humanity into heaven . So if people had once believed that God was remote from his creation, that he made us then sat on a cloud and left us to get on with it; they need believe it no longer. Jesus is the perfect mediator between man and God because he was both - the world was made through him and then he himself came to be part of that world.
The prophet Ezekiel also said that God would, one day, put his Spirit IN people.
Jesus said that we cannot be born again, have new life and enter the kingdom of heaven unless we are born of the Spirit, John 3:3-5. Paul says that it is the Holy Spirit who assures us that we are children of God, Romans 8:16, so unless we have the Holy Spirit, we cannot call God, Father. He also says that we cannot declare Jesus as Lord without the Spirit.
If we have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, living IN us, he is also our assurance that we have eternal life and will one day be with Jesus and receive our inheritance, 2 Corinthians 5:5.

When we become Christians, we say that we give ourselves completely to him, but he has also given himself completely to us, in a way we can't even begin to imagine.

If Jesus wasn't God when he was on earth, then it was just a man who died on the cross - and I don't believe that any man, however highly anointed, could have the ability or authority to give us eternal life and reconcile us to the Father. That being the case, we would surely still be dead in our sins. So how could we be saved, or know that we are saved?
If Jesus wasn't God then it means that God is remote from his creation, unattainable. We would need to convert to Judaism and offer 1000s of animal sacrifices - which even they don't offer any more - to be one of God's people and under his covenant, and even so, the best that we could hope for was forgiveness, making some kind of atonement for our sin - NOT reconciliation to our Maker; the right to call ourselves children of God, heirs, together with Jesus, to the king of heaven. We have a NEW spiritual identity; we have the right to say that we are children of the King, which is SO important to remember when the devil tries to trip us up and tells us we are worthless, sinners and nobodies. This is not any of our doing, we don't say this because of OUR faith or anything WE have done - it is all Jesus. Paul says that we have every spiritual blessing through Christ - if we believe and accept him.
The whole Gospel is that we were dead in our sins with no hope of reconciliation with God, no way of earning his love and no hope of heaven. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 - eternal and complete separation from God. That is the price we would have had to pay for our sin, and totally what we deserved. But because God loves us so much, he did not want his creation to suffer like that and never know him, so he paid that price himself, in Jesus. I know that raises the question, "did God die?" or "how can God die?" and the answer is, I have no idea. But what's the alternative; that either a man or an angel died on the cross? How then do we have a Gospel - how is that Good News for US?

If the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is not God, then we do not have GOD living in us. Which means, firstly that Jesus, the apostles and Paul were all lying, and secondly, that the best we can hope for in this life is that we do our best, try to be holy and please God and hope that somehow he will bend his own rules and allow us into heaven anyway. If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what are the gifts he gives and the fruit he produces; who are they from?

And if the Father, Jesus and the Spirit are all God, and there is only ONE God - one Father, one Son and one Spirit, who are all divine - how can that be, UNLESS they are one?

For a deeper study on these topics, I recommend reading the following studies,
http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/01/08/why-the-trinity-is-a-false-doctrine/

http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2015/12/15/jesus-christ-did-pre-exist-but-he-also-began-only-the-father-has-no-beginning/

http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2015/12/20/the-holy-spirit-is-a-unique-holy-living-conscious-being-that-lives-in-us-that-is-sent-from-heaven/

http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/01/15/the-power-of-the-spirit-and-being-baptized-in-holy-spirit/

With respect, I suspect you recommend them because you wrote them.
How about quoting some well respected Christian theologians and commentators - maybe like John Stott, William Barclay, Tom Wright? If these, and others, backed up what you are saying and interpreted the Scriptures you quote in the way that you do, I would imagine that far more people would be willing to listen. These are well read, well trusted and accredited authors and theologians - it would surely help your argument no end if you could say, "John Stott, Billy Graham (or whoever) agree with me and teach this about Scripture."
But I think the reality probably is that all the while you say, "this is what this Scripture means .... and this is a quote from my own blog which proves it", you'll find that many of us disagree.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Acts 2:30 isnt referencing Christ in Psalm 132:11?

And Psalm 132:12 isnt in context of Psalm 132:11 which Acts 2:30 is supposedly not referencing?

 

[civilwarbuff]

The truth is that the trinity is absolutely a mainstream Christian teaching.
It is taught by Christian churches, clergy, theologians and mainstream denominations any group which does not accept the Trinity - eg Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons - are cults'

The trinity is taught in the Nicene creed which describes Jesus as God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten NOT made. The rules of this forum say that if you want to call yourself a Christian; in the bit in the personal profile which says "faith" - you have to affirm the Nicene Creed. Therefore, the trinity is upheld on these Christian forums as well.

IMO, the trinity is central to our faith; every part of the trinity is involved in our salvation, and without the trinity I do not believe we could be saved, born again, Spirit filled Christians; children of God and heirs with Christ.
God the Father created the world through Jesus and in the power of the Spirit. Mankind rebelled, and broke the relationship that they had with their heavenly Father. There was, and is, no way of restoring that relationship - on our part. God gave the sacrificial system, but the Jews were still unable to keep the covenant; 1000s of animals were being sacrificed and people were no closer to God. So God came to earth himself, in the person of Jesus. God lived among us, (John 1:14), walked in our shoes, felt our pain and experienced everything we experience. Jesus was like us in every way, except that he did not sin, Hebrews 4:15. Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29, and our Good Shepherd who lay down his life for our sins, John 10:11. The angel told Joseph, even before Jesus' birth, that he would save his people from their sin, Matthew 1:21, and Jesus said that this was why he had come, Mark 10:45.
Before he died, Jesus told his disciples that if he did not go away he would not be able to send the Spirit - the Holy Spirit - to them, John 16:7. After his resurrection he told them to wait until the Spirit was sent to them, and this happened on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2. The Spirit was poured out on the believers that day, and that was a fulfilment of a prophecy made by Joel, Joel 2:28. When he ascended, Jesus became our mediator, Hebrews 9:15. He took our humanity into heaven . So if people had once believed that God was remote from his creation, that he made us then sat on a cloud and left us to get on with it; they need believe it no longer. Jesus is the perfect mediator between man and God because he was both - the world was made through him and then he himself came to be part of that world.
The prophet Ezekiel also said that God would, one day, put his Spirit IN people.
Jesus said that we cannot be born again, have new life and enter the kingdom of heaven unless we are born of the Spirit, John 3:3-5. Paul says that it is the Holy Spirit who assures us that we are children of God, Romans 8:16, so unless we have the Holy Spirit, we cannot call God, Father. He also says that we cannot declare Jesus as Lord without the Spirit.
If we have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, living IN us, he is also our assurance that we have eternal life and will one day be with Jesus and receive our inheritance, 2 Corinthians 5:5.

When we become Christians, we say that we give ourselves completely to him, but he has also given himself completely to us, in a way we can't even begin to imagine.

If Jesus wasn't God when he was on earth, then it was just a man who died on the cross - and I don't believe that any man, however highly anointed, could have the ability or authority to give us eternal life and reconcile us to the Father. That being the case, we would surely still be dead in our sins. So how could we be saved, or know that we are saved?
If Jesus wasn't God then it means that God is remote from his creation, unattainable. We would need to convert to Judaism and offer 1000s of animal sacrifices - which even they don't offer any more - to be one of God's people and under his covenant, and even so, the best that we could hope for was forgiveness, making some kind of atonement for our sin - NOT reconciliation to our Maker; the right to call ourselves children of God, heirs, together with Jesus, to the king of heaven. We have a NEW spiritual identity; we have the right to say that we are children of the King, which is SO important to remember when the devil tries to trip us up and tells us we are worthless, sinners and nobodies. This is not any of our doing, we don't say this because of OUR faith or anything WE have done - it is all Jesus. Paul says that we have every spiritual blessing through Christ - if we believe and accept him.
The whole Gospel is that we were dead in our sins with no hope of reconciliation with God, no way of earning his love and no hope of heaven. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 - eternal and complete separation from God. That is the price we would have had to pay for our sin, and totally what we deserved. But because God loves us so much, he did not want his creation to suffer like that and never know him, so he paid that price himself, in Jesus. I know that raises the question, "did God die?" or "how can God die?" and the answer is, I have no idea. But what's the alternative; that either a man or an angel died on the cross? How then do we have a Gospel - how is that Good News for US?

If the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is not God, then we do not have GOD living in us. Which means, firstly that Jesus, the apostles and Paul were all lying, and secondly, that the best we can hope for in this life is that we do our best, try to be holy and please God and hope that somehow he will bend his own rules and allow us into heaven anyway. If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what are the gifts he gives and the fruit he produces; who are they from?

And if the Father, Jesus and the Spirit are all God, and there is only ONE God - one Father, one Son and one Spirit, who are all divine - how can that be, UNLESS they are one?



With respect, I suspect you recommend them because you wrote them.
How about quoting some well respected Christian theologians and commentators - maybe like John Stott, William Barclay, Tom Wright? If these, and others, backed up what you are saying and interpreted the Scriptures you quote in the way that you do, I would imagine that far more people would be willing to listen. These are well read, well trusted and accredited authors and theologians - it would surely help your argument no end if you could say, "John Stott, Billy Graham (or whoever) agree with me and teach this about Scripture."
But I think the reality probably is that all the while you say, "this is what this Scripture means .... and this is a quote from my own blog which proves it", you'll find that many of us disagree.

Very well said, thank you.

 

[Strong in Him]

Very well said, thank you.

You're welcome.
I love writing the Gospel, and about Jesus.

 

[nomadictheist]

Acts 2:30 isnt referencing Christ in Psalm 132:11?

And Psalm 132:12 isnt in context of Psalm 132:11 which Acts 2:30 is supposedly not referencing?

When you don't tag posts, it creates confusion. I'm not sure if you're replying to me or not, but I'll answer anyway...

Was your point in posting these scriptures that Jesus was a descendant of David, and not pre-existing Abraham?

If not, then what is your point in referencing these verses?

If so, then how do you explain the numerous Bible passages that point to Jesus' deity, which have already been presented numerous times in other, similar threads?

And how do you explain the Lord's own words?

"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was, I am."?

Or how do you explain the fact that He specifically called the scribes and pharisees out on their belief that the Messiah is David's descendant?


Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question,42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him,“The son of David.”43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?

45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?”46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.

 

[Fireinfolding]

When you don't tag posts, it creates confusion. I'm not sure if you're replying to me or not, but I'll answer anyway...

Was your point in posting these scriptures that Jesus was a descendant of David, and not pre-existing Abraham?

If not, then what is your point in referencing these verses?

If so, then how do you explain the numerous Bible passages that point to Jesus' deity, which have already been presented numerous times in other, similar threads?

And how do you explain the Lord's own words?

"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was, I am."?

Or how do you explain the fact that He specifically called the scribes and pharisees out on their belief that the Messiah is David's descendant?


Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question,42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him,“The son of David.”43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?

45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?”46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.

I was not speaking to anyone really but showing the throne, and your verses have nothing to do with me or a problem I am having with scripture, nor would they make Jesus a liar

Your speaking to me as if I dont agree with the Nicene creed which only shows me that you people are just as confused

I am not here to "answer to you" or your confusion

Find someone who wants to speak with you

 

[nomadictheist]

I was not speaking to anyone really but showing the throne, and your verses have nothing to do with me or a problem I am having with scripture, nor would they make Jesus a liar

Your speaking to me as if I dont agree with the Nicene creed which only shows me that you people are just as confused

I am not here to "answer to you" or your confusion

Find someone who wants to speak with you

I apologize for trying to understand your purpose in posting. It is clear to me that I am beneath your intellect, and I won't pursue you any more with my confusion. I suppose having such superior intellect must be quite a gift, just as the ability to mock people who seek to understand your position must also be a gift.

I only thank my Lord and Savior that He was not so proud that He would leave me mired in confusion and death rather than endure the suffering and death to which He was appointed. And I will continue to endeavor with my utmost to serve Him and believe all His words.

To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and power forever and ever.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I apologize for trying to understand your purpose in posting. It is clear to me that I am beneath your intellect, and I won't pursue you any more with my confusion. I suppose having such superior intellect must be quite a gift, just as the ability to mock people who seek to understand your position must also be a gift.

I only thank my Lord and Savior that He was not so proud that He would leave me mired in confusion and death rather than endure the suffering and death to which He was appointed. And I will continue to endeavor with my utmost to serve Him and believe all His words.

To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and power forever and ever.

Needless to say, I think you wasted your pixels.....

 

[Fireinfolding]

I apologize for trying to understand your purpose in posting. It is clear to me that I am beneath your intellect, and I won't pursue you any more with my confusion. I suppose having such superior intellect must be quite a gift, just as the ability to mock people who seek to understand your position must also be a gift.

I only thank my Lord and Savior that He was not so proud that He would leave me mired in confusion and death rather than endure the suffering and death to which He was appointed. And I will continue to endeavor with my utmost to serve Him and believe all His words.

To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and power forever and ever.

Thats not an apology while apologizing backhandedly, which is accusing me of doing what you yourself actually did Best not to apologize in pretense as this place is filled with pretenders, as are most their apologies (never sincere)

I just posted four verses. You come after me for whatever your humble reasons were, and it was you putting yourself all up there as high and mighty starting with "CONTEXT PEOPLE"

Then you go on about me being high and mighty while I certainly come at no one here.

This thread is about the OP's views, my purpose for posting isnt any of your business.

And hey look ( right behind you) something predictable, another God loving person (from what is called the "admiralty" table a defender of the faith of the Nicene creed filled the room with more air

The Op has more fruit then most of them.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Speaking of "backhand" maybe you shouldn't....

 

[Fireinfolding]

You cant resist its all you do, the supposed heretics that come in here treat people better then those who bear the Nicene creed admiralty name (as if noble)

The heretics prove to be kinder and more fruitful then you people

 

[civilwarbuff]

You cant resist its all you do, the supposed heretics that come in here treat people better then those who bear the Nicene creed admiralty name (as if noble)

The heretics prove to be kinder and more fruitful then you people

Well, at least you acknowledge that they are heretics....that's a start.

 

[Fireinfolding]

If we can just get the defenders of the creed to be able to compete with their fruit, that too will be a start for the other part

 

[Berean777]

He didn't create all "things". If you read carefully at one of my studies, you will see for yourself that "things" was not part of the original words, instead it should read "all through him existed", meaning all living beings, not all "things". This coincides with the Genesis account of water and the earth already existing before Jesus even began speaking, and this was because the Father created first, which included creating Jesus, then Jesus began creating what he uttered into existence.

There is a simple definition of water and a complex definition of the word water, which is also described by the author as the deep. The author is considering the complex word definition in describing creation on a macro level and not merely a micro level. He starts of with a macro level event, like let there be light, which to the scientific community is the Big Bang that started the process of creation.

Let's at least read the versus from a macro point of view, to start of, then progress to the micro.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Heaven and earth presents a macro creation level event. Earth without form presents a rock life surface which is void of life, which is also void of water (H2O), because where there is water there is life, like vegetation and microscopic organisms. So void means void of living things and therefore void of natural H2O water, as the simple definition of the term would suggest.

The face of the deep, is a macro level event and not H2O. The water or deep are complex words that are highly suggestive of space, that is the cosmos. Think for a moment in regards to what the author is describing and you will discern that to him who is versed in worldly point of references would describe space as the deep waters that extend to infinity, meaning he sees from his position on earth, whilst projecting his description to the blue sky that is like the blue waters on earth, but add the word deep, you can see that the author is presenting the vastness of space from his reference point of view, whilst looking up to it through the deep blue sky, that is the waters pointing to the vastness of space.

It makes absolutely no sense for the Spirit of God to move upon the face of the waters from a micro, infinitesimal and local earthly geographical point of reference, because God doesn't need to be locally present and moving literally on H2O from a micro perspective, in order to initiate creation, when he said let there be light, otherwise it would be limiting God to be present at a specific geographical location at a specfic point in time. We know that God is eternal and timeless and can create without needing to present himself in person to perform the act of creation. God is not a worker who must clock on and present himself at his place of work.

Therefore we see that the versus above are describing a macro level event, pointing to the vastness (infinite) of space, whilst the author credits God to be present all in all. The author's purpose is to imply that God is infinite and omnipresemt and not just a person appearing at specfic GPS coordinates on earth and at a specified time, in order to do his localised work on earth.

Your following statement is so erroneous I don't know where to start.

water and the earth already existing before Jesus even began speaking, and this was because the Father created first, which included creating Jesus, then Jesus began creating what he uttered into existence.

Water, that is H2O was not there as the earth was void of the life giving substance and the earth was without form, meaning it was a chunk of rock floating in space. Based on your faulty premise your faulty conclusion stating the Father created first is easily dismissed and thereby when you state that he created Jesus in the process of creation is false. The author is presenting God as the infinite being by drawing upon the infinite vastness of space and then attributes the start of the Big Bang or spark to get things rolling from the infinite void of space to the very words spoken by the Living Word that is Let There Be Light. I would even go to the extent of saying that when the author says there was void and that earth was without form as to highlight the fact that even a chunk of rock was not yet formed, because as scientists believe today that matter came into being after the Big Bang spark or in the case of the author after the Words that the Living Word uttered when saying Let There Be Light.

Your whole claim collapses because of the fact that you unwittingly place an infinite, immaterial and unseen Spirit at a specified geographical location on earth hovering above finite waters, which in a way belittles God and is in vast contrast to how the author is trying to portray the Spirit of God as infinite as is the waters of the deep, which points to the vastness of the cosmos. In this respect I look upon this verse as a macro level event before the intricate micro details started to happen in succession after the words Let there be Light, in other words Let there be Life. Read John 1:1-4 and discern that John is attributing these very versus to the Living Word, who is declared the Light of men, where darkness comprehended it not, meaning that the emptiness and vastness of space, that was the infinite void before the Big Bang could not remain after the Words Let there be Light were uttered.

 

[Wgw]

If we can just get the defenders of the creed to be able to compete with their fruit, that too will be a start for the other part

Well, speaking for the Admiralty, I am proud of the fact that our members have assisted more than two dozen vulnerable or mentally ill people in the past two months. We have a dedicated Christian Services Committee which handles outreach to vulnerable persons, prayer requests and clerical referrals. And of course that's just one tiny element of the Nicene population of CF.com, which includes also two very excellent chaplains and a number of pious and devout Christians of all stripes.

 

[Berean777]

You just affirmed what I said, "things" was implied, meaning it was added. And yes, it does matter because it makes a huge difference in establishing the case that Jesus was created, because clarity in this verse affirms that the Father did indeed create first. People that believe as you do can never explain how water existed even before Jesus began speaking, and always just brush it off, never coming to the realization of what I just explained.

That is a confident remark, but at the same time a false claim.

My answer is given in the following link. You can try to refute it but I will require a reasoned argument from you, to why you believe what you believe.

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/thre...octrinal-reasons.7928502/page-2#post-69212712">Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons</a>

 

[Fireinfolding]

Well, speaking for the Admiralty, I am proud of the fact that our members have assisted more than two dozen vulnerable or mentally ill people in the past two months. We have a dedicated Christian Services Committee which handles outreach to vulnerable persons, prayer requests and clerical referrals. And of course that's just one tiny element of the Nicene population of CF.com, which includes also two very excellent chaplains and a number of pious and devout Christians of all stripes.

I dont know these people only the one that wears a three stooges avatar and some smug snarky types in the clique. "We are Admiralty" just reminds me of We are Borg"

I would probably stay with calling oneself defenders of the faith of Jesus Christ the Lord ( so His name can appear somewheres) and lose the whole knights of the square and round tables (but to each their own).

Believers in Jesus Christ do much the same things without taking on these sorts of table names making themselves of some sort of reputation while running around in their snarky smugness.

Better yet, we best keep Jesus name out of any of that (as being in some kind of reputation)