Why The Attack.....

[AnneSally]

Check out our FAQ and see what the difference is.... as you read some of the threads you will find a lot of information of the Judean apostalic understanding of the truth.... it makes a big difference. Ask.. and we will answer any questions you may have... feel free to drop traditions of men and walk in the narrow path of our Lord and Savior who laid it all out for us to walk. Hey.. we are just learning too but you will read and see the difference.

Most importantly... above all else.... Prayerfully walk with God on this matter... for without Him there is no light on any subject.

OK, this is a very kind and helpful post, thanks.

 

[christinepro]

How does the bible define a Gentile?

One who is a pagan. An idolater.

By that then, I don't know of any Messianic that is a pagan or idolater, and thus "Gentile."

 

[visionary]

But what part of Judaism? Because the ordinances were nailed to the cross.....

Your understanding of ordinances will make it hard for you to understand what it really means. If you want to start a special thread on the subject, it would be a great idea as this rabbit trail can quickly take a life of its own in order to explain the difference between Judaic understanding and current "lawless" understanding.

 

[AnneSally]

Your understanding of ordinances will make it hard for you to understand what it really means. If you want to start a special thread on the subject, it would be a great idea as this rabbit trail can quickly take a life of its own in order to explain the difference between Judaic understanding and current "lawless" understanding.

ok, I'll start a thread on it.

 

[GuardianShua]

Not to butt in on this thread uninvited, but I just wanted to post two articles that I thought were somewhat pertinent to the discussion...

hp://usminc.org/babbleon.html

hp://usminc.org/holidaze.html

If what that man says is true then the bible is worthless in giving instructions in what to watch for.

 

[Sphinx777]

If what that man says is true then the bible is worthless in giving instructions in what to watch for.

I would be interested in how you came to the above conclusion from the links I posted... please, do elaborate...

 

[Ivy]

If they feel they can knock down the church, even in small ways, they think that makes them right and somehow that vindicates their own theology/opinions. Nothing could be more illusory yet tempting to the carnal mind than that.

But, the church will merely renew its love for its Hebrew root

We can devoutly hope that most in the church will never read rabid ill-thought-out nonsense such as is posted regularly on this forum--and thus be stumbled away from renewing that love.

Most of these posters aren't even Jewish, yet they claim to be representing the Jewish community; and they don't even care how bad they may be making that community look.

 

[GuardianShua]

I would be interested in how you came to the above conclusion from the links I posted... please, do elaborate...

He has a book to sale. He use to be in the occult. He now says people have it all wrong about the Catholic Church. And there is something fishy about the web site because it disrupts my computer, and I have to keep shutting down to get out. It also disables my Norton Antivirus.

 

[SisterKatie]

Visionary.
I see you have done an extensive study on how the traditional churches are actually idolators.. actually worhipping other gods and even the lent is a pagan thing.. That is certainly an impressive corpus of knowlege you display about the basis of Christian people's traditions.
Standing inside of these traditions is of course a somewhat different thing than what you describe.
My pastor gave a beautiful sermon on lent the other day where he spoke about how many times in the Tanakh and the Gospels a 40 year or 40-day period is mentioned.. both for Israel and for Jesus in preparation for meeting the L-rd or for ministry or for entering the promised Land/Kingdom of God. Maybe you would say my pastor is altogether unaware of his own idolatry..
I don't feel like I am a captive within an idolatrous system.
I did have this talk about Passover before with a respectful person on the messianic board who also tried to get me to admit to something or get me tangled up in words... but he ended up saying he was surprised at my knowlege of Scripture. I'll give you only a little bite of our conversation:

He said: "you say that you celebrate Passover, Pentecost and the Birth. Since you are a Catholic I suppose you may use the term passover to indicate a day that is not biblical. "

I answered : " I don’t understand your question. To me Pesakh and Easter are two things of one kind. The people of Israel was led out of Egypt. The angel of death passed by the doors whereon Blood of a Lamb had been put on the Wood.. a powerful sign as to what was to come many decades later when Yeshua's Blood on the Cross would set the people of Israel free once more from the bondage of slavery under sin.. this time the liberation was at a universal level and was also meant for me.. a woman of gentile descent. So when I celebrate Easter I commemorate both of these acts of God. Does that offend you? "

What I stated there is really as simple as it is for us.. and I speak for both Protestants and Catholics. We know what we celebrate.. yet you imply that we are idolators.. I wish you would just speak clearly so we know where we have you.
I don't think I only talk for myself when I say that the Jewish people have often rightly felt betrayed by the Christian world.. but today many of us feel that the roles are reversed: even though we call Yeshua our Messiah and love you you still loathe us and don't want to be associated with us and you claim things about us that we have never even heard of. That hurts a great deal.

Shalom.
Sister Katie

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord (...) You then, why do you judge your brother or look down on him? (Rom 14:5)
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come (Col 2: 2:17)

 

[visionary]

There was no loathing in my comments. There is no animosity... those quotes are the reasons why easter is not acceptable in my eyes. Those quotes are the reason why I have moved my faith from easter to Passover as it was originally and still is today celebrated. You have come on to the forum that is like minded on this subject, where we celebrate passover and not easter. If you so choose to keep easter after all those quotes then please do so, but as for me and my house (messianic forum) we will do as God asked His People to do.

 

[zaksmummy]

Sister Kate, no-one said anything about loathing anyone. What has been said is that the mixture of paganism with christianity is not accepted.

This is a common misconception when discussing any kind of sin.

For example, when someone says that homosexuality is a sin, people accuse the person of homophobia. Look at what is being said - the act of homosexuality is a sin, the person who is committing the sin is not discussed.

In the same way what is being said is that the pagan practices which have been adopted by the church fathers and continued to this time is not pleasing to God who said in Leviticus 20 v 23 "You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things and I abhor them"

Ignorance is not bliss to the people on this board. When God speaks and shows you that what you have held to be truth is wrong then you have to change. That is what has happened to me and others who celebrate the Feasts that God has ordained, not the mixture of what is true with the paganism of the surrounding nations.

For those who decry this truth, ask God and he will show you, he showed me and it was a revelation that I didnt really want, BUT he is the Living God, who am I to stand by and ignor him when he shows himself?

 

[visionary]

Read about it in the catholic encyclopedia... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm

Easter was celebrated in Rome and Alexandria on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox, and the Roman Church claimed for this observance the authority of Sts. Peter and Paul.

 

[Ivy]

I answered : " I don’t understand your question. To me Pesakh and Easter are two things of one kind. The people of Israel was led out of Egypt. The angel of death passed by the doors whereon Blood of a Lamb had been put on the Wood.. a powerful sign as to what was to come many decades later when Yeshua's Blood on the Cross would set the people of Israel free once more from the bondage of slavery under sin.. this time the liberation was at a universal level and was also meant for me.. a woman of gentile descent. So when I celebrate Easter I commemorate both of these acts of God. Does that offend you? "

What I stated there is really as simple as it is for us.. and I speak for both Protestants and Catholics.

Right behind you, Sister Katie.

However, the majority of the people you are hearing from here are not of Jewish descent--for instance, Vis is not of Jewish descent, to my knowledge (she can correct me if I'm wrong).

They may feel they have the right to represent the Jewish community, but they would do better to let the Jewish community represent themselves.

Please do not feel "loathed" by Jewish people because of viewpoints you read on this forum, which viewpoints are rarely authored by actual Jews.

 

[Henaynei]

Right behind you, Sister Katie.

However, the majority of the people you are hearing from here are not of Jewish descent
They may feel they have the right to represent the Jewish community, but they would do better to let the Jewish community represent themselves.

Please do not feel "loathed" by Jewish people because of viewpoints you read on this forum, which viewpoints are rarely authored by actual Jews.

I thought that the reason "Jewish" was taken out of our forum name was because those in the place to voice an opinion agreed with the Jewish non -Messianics who post here that it should be taken out so that visitors would not get the "wrong opinion" that the speakers or content represented Judaism .... I don't know of any non-Jewish poster here who represents themselves as Jewish or their POV as representive of the Jewish community....

This is a Messianic community and as such is a cross-section of that community world-wide - not a monolithic representative, merely a cross-section of the wide spectrum of opinions, theology and POVs of which the Messianic community is composed.

 

[Ivy]

From reading people's personal stories, Henny, I think actual Jews are in the extreme minority here on MF-- yet opinions on Torah, Feast Days, etc., are delivered each day with an amazing vigor....by Gentiles.

Your situation is different because you are married to a Jewish person--but most of these Gentiles are simply seeking an occasion to look down on their fellow Gentiles, and trying to justify it with the use of "borrowed" Jewish trappings. I see a lot of posturing and arrogance to the majority of it.

I *also supported the deletion of the term "Judaism" from the forum title--because I didn't think an angst-ridden, primarily Gentile constituency was exactly the best representative of *any Judaism to the larger Christian community which populates this board.

 

[christianmomof3]

I answered : " I don’t understand your question. To me Pesakh and Easter are two things of one kind. The people of Israel was led out of Egypt. The angel of death passed by the doors whereon Blood of a Lamb had been put on the Wood.. a powerful sign as to what was to come many decades later when Yeshua's Blood on the Cross would set the people of Israel free once more from the bondage of slavery under sin.. this time the liberation was at a universal level and was also meant for me.. a woman of gentile descent. So when I celebrate Easter I commemorate both of these acts of God. Does that offend you? "

What I stated there is really as simple as it is for us.. and I speak for both Protestants and Catholics. We know what we celebrate.. yet you imply that we are idolators.. I wish you would just speak clearly so we know where we have you.
I don't think I only talk for myself when I say that the Jewish people have often rightly felt betrayed by the Christian world.. but today many of us feel that the roles are reversed: even though we call Yeshua our Messiah and love you you still loathe us and don't want to be associated with us and you claim things about us that we have never even heard of. That hurts a great deal.

From reading people's personal stories, Henny, I think actual Jews are in the extreme minority here on MF-- yet opinions on Torah, Feast Days, etc., are delivered each day with an amazing vigor....by Gentiles.

Your situation is different because you are married to a Jewish person--but most of these Gentiles are simply seeking an occasion to look down on their fellow Gentiles, and trying to justify it with the use of "borrowed" Jewish trappings. I see a lot of posturing and arrogance to the majority of it.

I *also supported the deletion of the term "Judaism" from the forum title--because I didn't think an angst-ridden, primarily Gentile constituency was exactly the best representative of *any Judaism to the larger Christian community which populates this board.

Right behind you, Sister Katie.

However, the majority of the people you are hearing from here are not of Jewish descent--for instance, Vis is not of Jewish descent, to my knowledge (she can correct me if I'm wrong).

They may feel they have the right to represent the Jewish community, but they would do better to let the Jewish community represent themselves.

Please do not feel "loathed" by Jewish people because of viewpoints you read on this forum, which viewpoints are rarely authored by actual Jews.

Sadly, Ivy's points are correct. I am one of the few actual Jews here because many others left due to some of the reasons Ivy listed.

The Jewish people don't care if Christians celebrate Easter and Christmas. They basically think that if ya'll want to, it is your thing and go for it. Some Jews are aware that both of those holidays have pagan origins - not from Hilsop who they probably have never heard of, but from the encyclopedia and documentaries on tv that point out those origins.
Jews think the Christian religion is wrong anyway so it does not matter to them if you use pagan practices in your religion or not.
That is not meant to be rude, but that is how they see it.
The Messianic Jewish religion is concerned about Christmas and Easter and they chose not to celebrate them because they have pagan origins. There are other Christians who are not in Messianic Judaism who also chose not to celebrate those holidays for the same or similar reasons.

The Jews do not see any connection between Passover and Easter and some would find it offensive to hear the two connected and many are offended that Messianic Jews celebrate Passover and connect it to Christ whom the Jews consider not to be God and the Jews see no reason for gentiles to celebrate Passover at all much less corrupt it by adding in Jesus whom they see as a man that the Christians pray to thus making them heretics.

I personally am Jewish and am a born again Christian.
I don't celebrate Christmas and Easter because they are not biblical and I see no reason that I should celebrate them.

I don't have any loathing for my brothers and sisters in Christ at all - either for those who do or those who do not celebrate those holidays.

The Christians and Messianic Jews are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

The whole holiday celebration issue is minor and is not a matter of the faith. It does not affect our salvation.
We should not judge one another by the observence or lack of observance of certain days.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Some Jews, and (non)Jews,
have left because everything they say here (anywhere on this forum and many other forums also) is recorded and is and will be used against them soon.
(this 'footnote' is just in case someone new or old here isn't aware of it yet)

 

[christianmomof3]

Some Jews, and (non)Jews,
have left because everything they say here (anywhere on this forum and many other forums also) is recorded and is and will be used against them soon.
(this 'footnote' is just in case someone new or old here isn't aware of it yet)

is this like a conspiracy theory thing? do you think someone is out to get you?

 

[Henaynei]

yet opinions on Torah, Feast Days, etc., are delivered each day with an amazing vigor....by Gentiles.

[snip]--but most of these Gentiles are simply seeking an occasion to look down on their fellow Gentiles, and trying to justify it with the use of "borrowed" Jewish trappings. I see a lot of posturing and arrogance to the majority of it.

[snip]I didn't think an angst-ridden, primarily Gentile constituency was exactly the best representative of *any Judaism to the larger Christian community which populates this board.

there are some Messianic Gentiles here who do honor the Torah, the Jewish people, the Jewish Messiah and Jewish Tradition ... some

and as you said, to date [may G-d grant a swift and merciful maturity to arise] the majority of MJism is rife with just the kinds of folk you have so clearly described

in another thread on another board I spoke my mind on such and called them an embarrassment to MJism and a deterrent to both Jews coming in to MJism and to Jews **staying** in MJism, for I know of a great many Jewish Messianics who have left congregations and the community because they were forced out by the Gentiles and their demands to do things *their* way in what was supposed to have been a Jewish expression .... it is like a replay of the treatment in the early community of believers of the Jewish believers by the Gentile believers (all the way to Constitine), so much so in fact, it is almost as if they have a script from that earlier "play"

and yet - the original context and atmosphere on MJF was one of honoring and learning from our Jewish heritage and respecting both Torah and Tradition, and just like the struggle in the early believing community mentioned above, the struggle to preserve and protect
such attitudes on this forum has been attacked from within and without as cries of heresy, hardheartedness and superiority rally and ring with accusations of an unloving and exclusivist attitude.

The same happens in MJ congregations (I've personally seen it again and again in multiple congregations), every time the Jewish Messianics step up and try to lead and mold the path that all Messianics might follow in this most elemental form of Judaism....

attempts like those of Stuart Dauermann to take a firm and scriptural stand for a mature and *JEWISH* Messianic body are met with silence, shouted down or muffled into near oblivion by those who want messy-antic "Judaism", or, are so weary and have lost heart so much that they have given up the good fight and are unable to provide encouragement and support...

no one is demanding gentiles keep Torah, scripture strongly mitigates against such pressure.... BUT, and again I say BUT, IF a gentile comes into the MJ community they should recognize that they MUST leave and cleave ... as did Ruth....

but most want to demand sharing in the harvest but then also demand the "right" to bring their own traditions (by implication better and more correct) from Christianity with them and that they be incorporated and honored in equality in the Jewish "household" in which they have been welcomed....

golly - there I go letting my mouth run again ...

I try to pretend that I am comfortable with the infection of hellenistic traditions into MJism as I try to ignore the devastating damage it is doing and has done because I, too, am more than weary of the fight ....

I left my people and have clung to the people of my husband, I have worked *very* hard to learn, understand and to gain earnest humility toward the Jewish communit. I have fought the belt-loop tzitzit MickyD cheeseburger crowd for 2 decades and the only glimmers of hope I've seen that Judaism will be allowed to arise and mature in MJism have been repeatedly squelched by alarmed and wailing cries accompanied with tearing of garments and beating of the chest (usually figuratively but sometimes actually physically) while accusing those seeking to bring Yeshua back to the Jewish context, rather than trying to add a little Jewishness into Christianity, of squelching the Spirit, or "returning to our vomit" and or of recrucifying Messiah ...

man, I got going and can't seem to stop ... I'm going to hit "submit" NOW....

 

[Athaliamum]

BUT, and again I say BUT, IF a gentile comes into the MJ community they should recognize that they MUST leave and cleave ... as did Ruth....

Leave and cleave...to love. I can't love something and yet have an attitude of apathy towards it be that God, His Word or another person. The "she'll be right mate" "You're entitled to your opinion" attitude doesn't sit right with me on these subjects.

People should not expect to come in here, crap all over what we hold dear and love and expect us to go "Oh okay, whatever - each to their own". "We'll corrupt it, we'll twist it, we'll fix it to suit ourselves and you've got to turn the other check because you have to "love your neighbour"". Loving one's neighbour doesn't mean that one should put up with sin and corruption.

Only a little leaven infects the whole dough, only a little apathy on one little thing leads to apathy with everything.

People view things from their seat in life. Depending on the things you have seen and done in your life it will effect how you view things and how you express things.

I know it is the military in me that effects how I see things and how I express things, not what ethnic background I come from. . There is a culture there that you most likely do not understand though it effects the way I personally view and approach things. Just going for a run has a different mentality. You don't just run off on your own to get to the finish line leaving those behind you to eat your dust- you do it together. If that means having to stop every two minutes to puke, if that means having to slow down and encourage the one lagging behind, if it means tough love, even if that means having to carry someone so that all cross that line you do it. This is what I would do with people I didn't even like, whom I had no connection with other then being in the same unit. How much more would I do this with brothers and sisters in God?

There have been times when one little mistake, one misjudgement rather then following procedure has cost the lives of many men and women. An example is of a sailor who walked past a compartment and saw a fellow sailor on the ground unconscious. He didn't follow procedure of calling for help, doning a breathing apartus and tying a rope around his waist but went staight in to help his oppo. Bam! On the ground unconscious. It was a toxic gas leak. Another sailor walked by, did exactly the same thing. They didn't follow the manual and they died.

As a sailor in charge if I was to see someone going to do this my response wouldn't be one of "Oh well, each to their own". It would be "OY! STOP! Think about what you're doing. Procedure's there for a reason, to protect you, follow it or you could get yourself killed!"

This is just procedure to save the flesh. How could I approach procedure for the soul that is eternal (Torah) with apathy? So do I deliever it with vigor - you bet! I'd rather be that then lukewarm and apathetic about it.

How dare I be paissonate about Torah and God yet not be "jewish" is that right?