Why The Attack.....

[christianmomof3]

I did not look at the carm site - if it is hateful I don't want to see it.
I am not aware of anyone being charged to attack a holiday, but Easter is of pagan origins and that is why Messianics and many other Christians do not participate in it. Here are some articles about the pagan origins of the holiday: http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter1.htm
http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html
http://www.rightdivision.com/html/easter_pagan_influences.html
http://www.albatrus.org/english/festivals/easter/is_easter_pagan.htm
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?...tent_type_id=686&display_order=3&mini_id=1072

It is wonderful to appreciate the all inclusive death and resurrection of Christ.
It is also wonderful to appreciate His incanation, birth, and sinless human living.
But, it is not necessary to do so on any certain day - we should appreciate Him every day, and it is not good to do so with pagan practices.

 

[Thekla]

thank-you for linking to resources.
In our tradition, we observe Pascha.
The tradition of receiving eggs is connected with the witness of St. Mary, and likely derives in part from a Jewish custom from a similar seasonal period.
The lenten fast is connected with the pre-baptismal fast of incoming converts and the habit of the community of Christians to fast and pray with the catechumans. The length of the fast has increased over time; the forty days is associated with Christ's 40 day fast.

Although Easter is a western term, it has been "Christianized". We no longer associate day names with their pagan deity origin.As a child, I had been told (by those of British descent) that hot-cross buns were a seasonal food that later had a cross applied to them in order to dis-associate them from their pagan origins (UK). They had been "Christianized". Christ conquers.

The sources are a matter of some concern. They do not list the originating sources for the information. Much information of a similar nature was originally sourced from Sir James Frazer -- his work no longer carries academic credibility, and for good reason. I have heard that the Encyclopedia Britannica entry on Halloween is under review; the article was (IIRC) sourced from Frazer. Much of the present info, for ex., on that holiday is myth itself.

Careful research is needed to claim such things, especially concerning very ancient customs where there are no contemporary extant descriptions of the custom.

EDIT: the pre-baptismal fast for converts is mentioned in the Didache.

 

[GuardianShua]

...on Easter?

A Messianic Jew or Gentile (not sure which) related to me that Messianics have a charge to "tear down" pagan holidays like Easter.

Is this common in Messianic circles?

Here is a link for you: http://christianforums.com/t6847813-judaeo-christians-and-pagan-christians.html&page=7

 

[Thekla]

for those interested, some links on Frazer and his "scholarship"

this is from JSTOR: its only the first page of the article, but should illustrate the point. The print is quite small (if you've old lady eyes like me, bring a magnifying glass )

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0011-3204(196612)7:5<560:FAMACD>2.0.CO;2-4


a selection from the second:

The most influential of all the people active in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries was a reclusive Cambridge don who, in 1890, published the first volume of a vast opus. By the time Sir James Frazer died in 1941 this work, The Golden Bough, was a household name. Frazer's approach is broadly that of comparative mythology, although the lack of academic rigour makes it more a mix-and-match of material that fitted his interests in fertility myths. He attempts to argue that the 'myth' of the crucifixion and resurrection derives from a once-universal custom of a sacred king who reigned for a set term and was then sacrificed. Sadly, apart from a dubious example from Sudan, Frazer was never able to identify a sacred king of this kind. The multi-volume 'evidence' was a smoke screen for this crucial failure. Indeed, as Hutton notes (1991: 326) Frazer was never accepted by most of the historians and theologians of his day. But he was accepted by the public. And he inspired such leading writers as T.S. Eliot, D.H. Lawrence and Robert Graves. The Golden Bough cast a shadow over both folklore and mythology that can still be discerned, especially in more popular accounts.

from here:

http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/foamycustard/fc005.htm

per the Encyclopedia Brittanica, one edition - in the entry on Halloween - mentions a Celtic deity "Samhain". Except, there is no mention of such a deity in the Celtic "pantheon", nor in any extant Irish literature or mythology. Samhain is a month name. So much for 'scholarship'.

 

[Melchizedek]

...on Easter?

A Messianic Jew or Gentile (not sure which) related to me that Messianics have a charge to "tear down" pagan holidays like Easter.

Is this common in Messianic circles?

Yes it's common in Messianic circles to uproot pagan traditions in our acts of worship of God, and pagan feasts, and embrace rather the God-ordained acts of worship, and feasts.

What is so hateful about that, if it is viewed in light of "love the LORD your God" as God defines how to love him? I believe the poster posted a verse from a Torah portion reading from two weeks ago, and probably thought it best to share with others who believe obeying God's commandments know no political correctness, and thus posted it to "encourage" other Messianics who may have felt like giving up expressing the truth concerning the matters of Christmas and Easter.

By no means do Messianics reject the birth of Jesus, or reject his death. They simply observe his birth during Tabernacles (the feast of God Dwelling with Man) and Passover (in remembrance of Him, the Passover Lamb).

 

[Thekla]

Can you post a link to that post so people can see what your talking about? KJV: Acts 12:4
And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
That is Paganism at work. That day, and word "Passover," was replaced with "Easter".

according to Wikipedia (which is a dicey source, and needs independent confirmation), Bede's assertion re: Easter is conjectural and singular. Bede is known for his work resulting in the modern western calendar (so that Pascha could be properly dated, IIRC). According to Wikipedia, Bede states that said "godess" is no longer worshiped at his writing. It would be best to return to Bede's writing on the matter, and then follow other sources for confirmation of a goddess "Easter" in Europe. Further, to complete the connection, the pagan worship should be attested as contemporary with the renaming of Pascha.

Here is the link to the Wikipedia article for a start:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre

EDIT: per the "Easter eggs", aside from proposed Jewish and Christian custom re:eggs, I think it may be valuable to remember that in the NE USA, chickens begin to lay eggs again in the (late?) spring. I don't think its too great a leap to consider that eggs are wont to be associated with any spring observance.

 

[A_Pioneer]

Hello Thekla,

Remember what you said to me on an earlier thread?

Is this a demonstration of the honesty of an EO participant?

Wisdom is justified by her children/deeds.

Shalom

 

[GuardianShua]

according to Wikipedia (which is a dicey source, and needs independent confirmation), Bede's assertion re: Easter is conjectural and singular. Bede is known for his work resulting in the modern western calendar (so that Pascha could be properly dated, IIRC). According to Wikipedia, Bede states that said "godess" is no longer worshiped at his writing. It would be best to return to Bede's writing on the matter, and then follow other sources for confirmation of a goddess "Easter" in Europe. Further, to complete the connection, the pagan worship should be attested as contemporary with the renaming of Pascha.

Here is the link to the Wikipedia article for a start:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre

EDIT: per the "Easter eggs", aside from proposed Jewish and Christian custom re:eggs, I think it may be valuable to remember that in the NE USA, chickens begin to lay eggs again in the (late?) spring. I don't think its too great a leap to consider that eggs are wont to be associated with any spring observance.

I'm not sure of what you are saying here, but eggs and rabbits are pagan fertility symbols.

 

[Thekla]

Hello Thekla,

Remember what you said to me on an earlier thread?

Is this a demonstration of the honesty of an EO participant?

Wisdom is justified by her children/deeds.

Shalom

Hi, A_Pioneer

yes, I remember you; I ceased discussing the icons at your request.

I agree, honesty and accuracy are important in these discussions. Consider, when we disseminate disinformation, or information without adequate foundation, we risk undermining what we have to say that is of value. Per this discussion, if the information on pagan syncretism is researched by those we have shared it with and found erroneous - we have undermined our witness. I offer this information so that, for those who wish to, the information may be appropriately researched and verified. I'd rather people discover misaprehensions they have received - on an anonymous forum - than have them be taken to task in a "real life" dialogue.

Best

 

[Thekla]

I'm not sure of what you are saying here, but eggs and rabbits are pagan fertility symbols.

so are pomegranites.
Eggs have been associated with Purim and, among Christians with Pascha, for a very long time. Chickens (at least in some climates) stop laying late fall to mid spring. It is possible that eggs are associated with many spring commemorations. Anotherwords, their association with spring is not exclusive to pagans. The rabbit bit I do find rather confusing. Additionally, the existence of a goddess "Easter" is vague - the further association of a possible goddess with Christianity is vaguer still.

To this end, and given the broad use of Frazer to link Christian and pagan practice (and given Frazer's sullied reputation in the academic community), I think the matter should be researched thoroughly and with an eye to source quality and double-checks before being shared as fact with the "larger community". To avoid getting "easter egg" on our faces

 

[GuardianShua]

so are pomegranites.
Eggs have been associated with Purim and, among Christians with Pascha, for a very long time. Chickens (at least in some climates) stop laying late fall to mid spring. It is possible that eggs are associated with many spring commemorations. Anotherwords, their association with spring is not exclusive to pagans. The rabbit bit I do find rather confusing. Additionally, the existence of a goddess "Easter" is vague - the further association of a possible goddess with Christianity is vaguer still.

To this end, and given the broad use of Frazer to link Christian and pagan practice (and given Frazer's sullied reputation in the academic community), I think the matter should be researched thoroughly and with an eye to source quality and double-checks before being shared as fact with the "larger community". To avoid getting "easter egg" on our faces

There is modern day Archaeology. It counts too.

 

[Thekla]

There is modern day Archaeology. It counts too.

absolutely, yes !

just to carefully consider -- the EO has so much from Judaism -- our chant, oil lamps (lit at vespers), etc etc. I rather think that some of these have been modified. But eggs at Purim/Pascha may be one. It is sometimes very hard to discover the manner in which something was "introduced".

 

[A_Pioneer]

Hello Thekla,
Just me again.
"But brilliant men like you can justify your every inconsistancy."
I suppose that also applies to women.

I have always wanted to go to someone elses house or Church and tell them their wrongs, but common sense and good manners keep from it.

I don't see your 'gored ox' anywhere!

May I remind you of the rules for this congregational area?
If it is required. You may leave this thread also!

Shalom

 

[Bananna]

I paint eggs! yes I do and I'm not afraid to admit I paint wood and rocks and canvas too.

There are Jewish painted eggs also... Don't have anything to do with Easter, but hey what are people to do in days when there is no TV and they spend their winters making things and painting things and just enjoying pretty things.

I don't paint Easter eggs. No one religion owns eggs. They do represent rebirth. And fish may be worshipped in some places but the fish may be a symbol of Judaism or Christianity.

Why give up ground to the enemy and destroy every little joy just because someone is perverted in its use.

That said... I don't do Easter. I do celebrate Passover and feast of first Fruits.
I do celebrate Tabernacles as Christ's birth.

I do have a whole household that wont give up their Christmas idols. I'm not going to fight about it. They may and I may not. They are after all gentiles.

I feel responsible to give an answer for myself if asked. I don't feel a compulsion to change peoples minds.
Been there and done that. Not very effective anyway.
bananna

 

[Thekla]

Hello Thekla,
Just me again.
"But brilliant men like you can justify your every inconsistancy."
I suppose that also applies to women.

I have always wanted to go to someone elses house or Church and tell them their wrongs, but common sense and good manners keep from it.

I don't see your 'gored ox' anywhere!

May I remind you of the rules for this congregational area?
If it is required. You may leave this thread also!

Shalom

oh my, I linked in from the "Congregation" page, which claimed this forum is open to Christians, nor did I intend to attack your faith. Sorry ! Well, I hope the information was worthwhile.

Peace

 

[ContraMundum]

...on Easter?

A Messianic Jew or Gentile (not sure which) related to me that Messianics have a charge to "tear down" pagan holidays like Easter.

Is this common in Messianic circles?

Lots of people in Christian circles feel themselves to be the new Reformers. They feel like God has called them to the task of repristinating the Church. This is nothing new- every new move must attack the old to survive and justify its existence. If they feel they can knock down the church, even in small ways, they think that makes them right and somehow that vindicates their own theology/opinions. Nothing could be more illusory yet tempting to the carnal mind than that.

Lately, I have seen this quasi-Jehovah's Witness thinking come into the forum. I feel obligated to tell you that such thinkers do not speak for all, if any (?), Jewish Believers in Yeshua the Messiah.

Sadly, some think that such attempts to "Reform" and "purge" the church are actually what Messianic Jews are about. It isn't. Messianic Jews will bring their charism to the church, of this we are sure. But, the church will merely renew its love for its Hebrew root through such influence. It will re-discover the reasons behind the things it already does and faithfully continues to do. In time, God willing we will once again have our own place where we can pray the Hebrew Rite within the one ekklesia.

Every Jew will testify- history has a way of vindicating tradition. In religion, people forget why they do things, but they do them all the same. Almost always, history eventually provides the answer as to how and why the tradition started in the first place. The tradition is not altered, but proven true.

The fact is that very few who attack the ekklesia (Christ's own Body, no less) have studied their own faith. They have not taken the time to discover the abundance of Hebraic thought and tradition found in the Apostolic traditions of the ekklesia. Rather, they are thoroughly Reformed in their thinking and theology- they just don't know it yet. They buy into the arguments of people who have agendas against the ekklesia and it's authority as custodian of the truth.

This forum could be great if we actually discussed the Hebrew root of the one ekklesia rather than the JW doctrines that some have been tricked into following.

Just pray for them. I do.

My two cents.

 

[GuardianShua]

Lots of people in Christian circles feel themselves to be the new Reformers. They feel like God has called them to the task of repristinating the Church. This is nothing new- every new move must attack the old to survive and justify its existence. If they feel they can knock down the church, even in small ways, they think that makes them right and somehow that vindicates their own theology/opinions. Nothing could be more illusory yet tempting to the carnal mind than that.

Lately, I have seen this quasi-Jehovah's Witness thinking come into the forum. I feel obligated to tell you that such thinkers do not speak for all, if any (?), Jewish Believers in Yeshua the Messiah.

Sadly, some think that such attempts to "Reform" and "purge" the church are actually what Messianic Jews are about. It isn't. Messianic Jews will bring their charism to the church, of this we are sure. But, the church will merely renew its love for its Hebrew root through such influence. It will re-discover the reasons behind the things it already does and faithfully continues to do. In time, God willing we will once again have our own place where we can pray the Hebrew Rite within the one ekklesia.

Every Jew will testify- history has a way of vindicating tradition. In religion, people forget why they do things, but they do them all the same. Almost always, history eventually provides the answer as to how and why the tradition started in the first place. The tradition is not altered, but proven true.

The fact is that very few who attack the ekklesia (Christ's own Body, no less) have studied their own faith. They have not taken the time to discover the abundance of Hebraic thought and tradition found in the Apostolic traditions of the ekklesia. Rather, they are thoroughly Reformed in their thinking and theology- they just don't know it yet. They buy into the arguments of people who have agendas against the ekklesia and it's authority as custodian of the truth.

This forum could be great if we actually discussed the Hebrew root of the one ekklesia rather than the JW doctrines that some have been tricked into following.

Just pray for them. I do.

My two cents.

Ok then, so you are opposed to what God says and your for Paganism. NEXT!

 

[GuardianShua]

Isaiah 2:6
[ The Day of the Lord ] You have abandoned your people, the house of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and clasp hands with pagans.

 

[GuardianShua]

Psalm 78:68
but he chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion, which he loved.

 

[GuardianShua]

Leviticus 18:24
" 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.

Leviticus 18:28
And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

Leviticus 20:23
You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.