• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Why so much conservative hostility towards undocumented immigrants?

Discussion in 'General Politics' started by compassion 4 humanity, Nov 22, 2017.

  1. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

    +524
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Others
    "us" who?
    "us" as the citizens of a "country" giving?
    or
    "us" as individuals actually putting aid in the hands of the recipient, skipping the middle mans cut?

    The government who forces citizens to grudgingly give their finances for aid, (which the government takes a cut) and whom the government qualifies as it being a necessity?

    Or like scripture says, individuals who elect to give aid - not out of necessity, not grudgingly, but out of the purpose of their heart?

    2 Cor 9
    [7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  2. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +652
    Christian
    Married
    It's not ny position that America is a despicable country.

    It's not my position that all of its laws are illegitimate.

    I'm just not one to ignore the truth ...

    And the truth is that there is a certain hypocrisy to claiming to be a nation of laws, ... while there was nothing lawful about its origin, and thus, the establishment of those very laws ...
     
  3. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

    +3,570
    Canada
    Catholic
    Private
    CA-Greens
    ...thus the establishment of very laws are nevertheless legitimate.
    That is the conservative position. Laws still matter.

    But we will leave you to your anarchy.
    Hope that works out well for y'all, and the underclass that your lawlessness is helping create.
     
  4. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

    +524
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Others
    How so was NOTHING, lawful about its (America's) origin?

    That America was named after an Italian explorer and map maker, or something else?

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  5. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

    +1,307
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Engaged
    Is conquest unlawful?

    What law does it violate?
     
  6. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +652
    Christian
    Married
    Thou shall not steal ???
    Thou shall not kill ???
    Thou shall not covet ???
     
  7. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +652
    Christian
    Married
    The establishment of the nation was not an exercise of law.

    It was conquest ... taking what belonged to other peoples.
     
  8. Brotherly Spirit

    Brotherly Spirit Member

    232
    +157
    Christian
    Single
    I don't think it's hypocritical, it's difference time and people. There were certain things that happened in the past that weren't ideal. But we're here now trying to handle today's problems. I agree we should learn from past mistakes, yet we can't be unfair or unrealistic about it.

    The United States has been a sovereign nation on this land for hundreds of years. Since then multiple generations have been born here as natives regardless of ancestry. It's not black and white as it was originally, when all those of the non-indigenous were from abroad encroaching on the indigenous. Facts are a nation exists that's responsible for governing those here; it includes having laws allowing for the ordering of society (unity, security, liberty, equality etc.). Can't simply ignore the potential threats or problems open borders of unprocessed immigration would have; much as today as it was in the past.

    While I disagree about having hands tied behind our backs when comes to being a nation in the here and now; I do agree we should be less black and white about immigration too, it's not anymore simple when considering the difficult circumstances of both legal and illegal immigration.

    Again as I continue to read this thread, I don't know understand the disagreements. Neither open borders or mass deportation are fair and realistic. If people would just argue for secure borders, due process, and legal immigration; on all of those there could be improvements. Which could be done to better consider those here plus any would come. The us versus them mentality and attitude won't reconcile the opposing sides, only further divide.
     
  9. Brotherly Spirit

    Brotherly Spirit Member

    232
    +157
    Christian
    Single
    No offense, but that's somewhat naive. All lands have been taken by conquest at one point. It was a common survival of the fittest, rule of the jungle law until recently. As for the rule of law, it's about the governing within it's borders; whether it's fair and just (due process and enforced etc.). Obviously the idea of being a nation of laws is an ideal, not always been held too. But we shouldn't throw our hands in the air as it's too late and fall on our sword. I don't understand what you really expect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  10. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

    +1,307
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Engaged
    How did those other peoples get hold of the land in the first place? By taking it from the tribes that were them before them.

     
  11. PloverWing

    PloverWing Episcopalian

    739
    +695
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    I don't feel the need to keep immigrants at the same kind of distance. I would certainly welcome immigrants into my neighborhood, help them move in, help them figure out how to get an American driver's license, help them get enrolled in the local schools if needed, and things like that. If we do it right, 5 or 10 years from now they won't be poor any more.

    A big factor in my personal life, and a big part of the context out of which I write, is that I work at a university. About half of the faculty in my department are immigrants. Some come from countries that are fine to live in but small, and the US offers more opportunities for research collaboration. Some come from politically unstable countries, and here in the US they can go about their work without worrying about a dictator or a military coup disrupting their lives. A number of my students are immigrants as well; some are here just for the cosmopolitan experience, but others come from economically or politically unstable countries. These faculty and students are really smart people, making significant contributions to their new nation.

    When I picture increased immigration, I'm not looking for thousands of people to live permanently in refugee camps on the outskirts of town. I'm envisioning people who are going to live in homes and go to school and have jobs and pay taxes like the rest of us. From my point of view, that's not a disaster at all.
     
  12. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

    +3,570
    Canada
    Catholic
    Private
    CA-Greens
    Conveniently naive.
    I am sure that those here with internet access have reaped the same benefits from America as most of the country, indeed most of the world.
    But whatever makes a person feel moral about their lives, serves the purpose of making them feel better about themselves.
    Which is convenient.
     
  13. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +652
    Christian
    Married
    I just find it difficult to get worked up about a Mexican walking across a border to get a job to feed his family ... when the laws that would oppose this were established by men with guns, who were willing to kill to get what they wanted ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  14. Brotherly Spirit

    Brotherly Spirit Member

    232
    +157
    Christian
    Single
    I wish it was that simple and we can just whatever. However this nation came to be and what you think about it happened hundreds of years ago. We can't hold it hostage to the past, when it's what we have. Not only for the people here, but for those who come.

    If we're to have a place that's worth coming, it also needs to be a place worth staying. It requires the rule of law, providing clarity of how we're to live peacefully. Not something that excludes the people here, present and future; who happen to use the framework of past people to govern themselves. There are differences from how it started to where we are today, it's not necessary to fall on the sword.

    Again I agree we should be more considerate toward immigrants (including illegal immigrants). I'm just saying the same needs to be done for citizens (and legal residents). Only through governing which involves the law can people settle their differences; it's a balancing act, which isn't perfect.
     
  15. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Alpha Male (Retired)

    +3,332
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    Actually taking what was in the possession of other people. Many, including myself, believe it was our prophetic destiny to 'have' this land, at least for as long it took to fulfill the prophetic promise, which imo has long since been fulfilled. We have ascended to the promised greatness and are now in steep decline.
     
  16. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

    +814
    Christian
    Private
    US-Green
    Well, the OP raises a good question. Personally, I think we all should admit that most of the illegals are here to work and many of them work at difficult jobs, often jobs that many U.S. citizens would not want to do, ex: agricultural jobs, meat plants, chicken plants. turkey plants, mushroom plants, etc. My only real complaint about the illegals is that the reported crimes that some commit, especially the violent crimes like murder and rape. Now, this is not the norm. Most of them do not fall into this category. Still, one cannot help but be upset when you see a case like the one in San Francisco, when poor Kate was killed by a man who came here illegally 5 or 6 times.

    I do not know the answer to the problem and no one knows how many illegals are actually here. The latest estimate seems to be 11-12 million, but some claim it could be as high as 20 million or even more. All I can say is that I was around for the Reagan amnesty and that did nothing to stop the influx. I do not see a way to have immigration reform, unless Congress can either authorize the building of a wall or some up with an alternative way of slowing further illegal immigration to a near standstill. Hence, the current situation could well exist for many more years, with millions living "in the shadows".

    The Pope and the Catholic Church seem to very much on the side of the immigrants and we should all think about what Jesus wants us to do. It is unfortunate that both political parties have dropped the ball on this issue for decades, just like they have with the ever increasing National Debt and the need to switch to environmental friendly energy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  17. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Alpha Male (Retired)

    +3,332
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    The people you mention will likely contribute, and are few in number as well. It's the poor, uneducated, and unskilled, that flood our welfare systems; those who commit crime; and those who are here to earn our dollars only to send them back to their 'home' country that are the problem.

    Don't let the few within the walls of academia blind you what's going on in the rest of the country.
     
  18. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

    +3,570
    Canada
    Catholic
    Private
    CA-Greens
    There are plenty of reasons why Americans rally to allow illegal immigrants, and slur those who believe in the law.
    A steady flow of illegal immigrants with few rights keep the wages down, and therefore those with good jobs, such as working in universities at academia, pay less for the goods that can supplied by low price labor.
    Industrialists love it because pay less means higher profits. Churches are happy because third world people tend to go to church more, and give the priest someone to preach to for a change.
    For those in low wage jobs, competition from those who work cheaper outside of the law and its expenses, it is not quite as rosy, but there is always welfare, and that is paid for by government deficits in the trillions, which in turn is paid for by money borrowed from countries like China, which can in turn afford to lend money, because there people just work until they drop with no benefits whatsoever.

    And if this all sounds like a bubble building up, well, what is the harm in a little bubble bursting?
    No bad can come from that.

    But as long as people can feel moral raging against the self-righteous conservatives and their stickling for the law, that is what is important.
     
  19. PloverWing

    PloverWing Episcopalian

    739
    +695
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    This is one reason I'd like to see legal immigration more easily accessible to more people. You're right that illegal immigrants are easily exploited with low wages, because it's dangerous to complain about their employers. I'd much rather see the people currently in those jobs gain access to legal residency status, where they'd be protected by minimum wage and other workplace laws.
     
  20. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +652
    Christian
    Married
    What prophetic destiny/promise ?
     
Loading...