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Why seek "God"?

ananda

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From my experience, in any of the spiritual paths that I'm connected with, none of them considers Love as the "goal". Every one of them considers Love as the path or a way forward. More than any other creature, Human Beings are made to respond to Love. And I think that's important to consider.
Love is also considered a (not the only) way forward in early Buddhism; it elevates us from the human state/realm to a divine state/realm. Other practices - beyond love - are needed to achieve even higher states/realms.

Do you believe love is the one and only primary, fundamental motivation of humans? I'm not sure if I see that. E.g. To take one example: we eat, because we experience dukkha (my understanding of our primary, fundamental motivation) if we don't eat. I cannot conceive how love can be the primary motivation for eating.

When talking about presence, for instance, Rumi has this to say: "There is no way into presence except through a Love exchange".
What do you mean by "presence"?
 
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FireDragon76

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Actually, I can see how some Buddhist approaches could facilitate one's
walk with the Lord through techniques for getting negative mental "noise"
out of the way so that one can focus more fully on communing with God.
If that makes sense. Like that whole "taking every thought captive" thing I
mentioned earlier. Again, though, I'm getting that more from modern
teachers on the subject who seem to draw from Eastern influences.

-

The Quietists like Madame Guyon or Fenelon, or Brother Lawrence are more relevant to Christian spirituality.
 
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FireDragon76

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I can see how you might reject detachment as "twisted", if you are required to interpret it in terms of your dogma.

No, it's my life experience. I don't think a focus only on transcendence is a good spiritual ethic in general. It can lead to repressive societies in the name of some higher good.

Since I cannot verify Christian dogma for myself, I cannot interpret detachment from the same perspective, especially since personal, direct experience informs me that I encounter greater bliss and peace the more I detach.

It may just be a stage along your journey. At some point you may realize there is more to life than bliss and peace.
 
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ananda

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No, it's my life experience. I don't think a focus only on transcendence is a good spiritual ethic in general. It can lead to repressive societies in the name of some higher good.
Can you provide an example of such repressiveness due to detachment or transcendence?

It may just be a stage along your journey. At some point you may realize there is more to life than bliss and peace.
I am open to hearing, if you can identify another primary, fundamental life goal which guides all of our actions (besides our search for permanent sukkha) and explain how it can be so in terms of your personal experience, like I've done with dukkha-sukkha?
 
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juvenissun

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Why do people seek "God"?

Buddhism explains our search in terms of dukkha (aka suffering, discontentment, displeasure, etc.). That is, because of dukkha, we seek out god(s), saviors, prophets, psychics, doctors, politicians, love, food, money, sex, sleep, entertainment, etc.

Why not address dukkha itself, as the Lord Buddha taught, instead of seeking to treat its symptoms? Dig out the roots (of dukkha), instead of endlessly snipping its offshoots.

There is no way to solve the dukkha problem, unless you kill yourself. In fact, you ARE waiting for that day to be released from dukkha. Then you are assuming you would fall into the trap of dukkha AGAIN and AGAIN.

Pretty sad.
 
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ananda

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There is no way to solve the dukkha problem, unless you kill yourself. In fact, you ARE waiting for that day to be released from dukkha. Then you are assuming you would fall into the trap of dukkha AGAIN and AGAIN.

Pretty sad.
None of what you wrote is anything close to what I practice or believe.
 
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Why do people seek "God"?
Buddhism explains our search in terms of dukkha (aka suffering, discontentment, displeasure, etc.). That is, because of dukkha, we seek out god(s), saviors, prophets, psychics, doctors, politicians, love, food, money, sex, sleep, entertainment, etc.
Why not address dukkha itself, as the Lord Buddha taught, instead of seeking to treat its symptoms? Dig out the roots (of dukkha), instead of endlessly snipping its offshoots.

Hi ananda,
Suffering, discontentment, displeasure are not the problem. Sure they are big problems but not the problem. They themselves are symptoms of the root problem which is our separation by sin from our Creator God. Mankind is in a state of perpetual rebellion against his Maker. In reality the deepest desire of the human heart is to be independent of God. We want all the goodies to do with as we want without any recognition or return being given to The Giver. As you say, we need to get to the root of it instead of just all the time sticking plasters on the symptoms.

How many people really are seeking God? Is not the truth that in fact we are seeking to escape the suffering, we are seeking our self satisfaction even when it is with religious/philosophical inquiry and practice. Seeking God and finding Him always starts by his initiating. The first word of God's call to man is, Repent. That is, turn around from your own, independent, rebellious, sinful direction and come to Me.
He says “ Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

ananda, you say that Buddhism 'works' for you. The problem is though that it doesn't 'work' for God. And in the end anything that doesn't 'work' for Him is useless to us.
This present world and our life in it is not an illusion. It is temporary and passing but no illusion. It has real, carry-over consequences into the age to come. God, who is eternal, holy, just, and love is a real person. His name is Jesus Christ. Any seeking that does not bring you to Him is a dead end.

Many years back as part of my 'seeking' I did Buddhism. If you're interested here-
I had a dream
post#5

Go well, go wisely,
><>
 
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ananda

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Hi ananda,
Suffering, discontentment, displeasure are not the problem. Sure they are big problems but not the problem. They themselves are symptoms of the root problem which is our separation by sin from our Creator God. Mankind is in a state of perpetual rebellion against his Maker. In reality the deepest desire of the human heart is to be independent of God. We want all the goodies to do with as we want without any recognition or return being given to The Giver. As you say, we need to get to the root of it instead of just all the time sticking plasters on the symptoms.

How many people really are seeking God? Is not the truth that in fact we are seeking to escape the suffering, we are seeking our self satisfaction even when it is with religious/philosophical inquiry and practice. Seeking God and finding Him always starts by his initiating. The first word of God's call to man is, Repent. That is, turn around from your own, independent, rebellious, sinful direction and come to Me.
He says “ Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

ananda, you say that Buddhism 'works' for you. The problem is though that it doesn't 'work' for God. And in the end anything that doesn't 'work' for Him is useless to us.
This present world and our life in it is not an illusion. It is temporary and passing but no illusion. It has real, carry-over consequences into the age to come. God, who is eternal, holy, just, and love is a real person. His name is Jesus Christ. Any seeking that does not bring you to Him is a dead end.
I understand that is what Christianity teaches you. However, how would you suggest how I can directly observe these dogmatic allegations (e.g. regarding sin, rebellion, repentance, God, Jesus, etc.) for myself, that they are a deeper and more fundamental motivator than dukkha? For example, I can directly observe, for myself, how dukkha seems to explain the motivation behind my every action.

Many years back as part of my 'seeking' I did Buddhism. If you're interested here-
I had a dream
post#5

Go well, go wisely,
><>
Much metta to you, and thanks for sharing. You mentioned that you "did" Buddhism for 2 years - you must have been a quick learner! I'm learning, studying, and "doing" Buddhism for 5+ years, and I still find that I'm exploring its incredible depths. It has improved and satisfied me in ways which no other religion or philosophy has done. Did you reach jhana, the essence of the eighth component of the Eightfold Path?

How do you suggest that your dreams proved Almighty "God"?
 
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The Buddha's Path has proven fruitful for me so far; his progressive spiritual exercises provide progressively greater relief from dukkha (and greater sukkha and bliss that goes far beyond anything that ordinary life offers), the further I advance.


What is this proof? and the methodology acceptable to everyone?

That was an intro. It takes a few posts to lay things out in perspective. Especially when the subject is complex. You focus on suffering, your single main concern is atomistic. Mine is holistic, deals with an host of interlinked, related issues.

I outlined the common trap men fall into when faced with obstacles. Mistaking the obvious for the ultimate. Seeing only the head ache, not the tumor.

The analogy would be seeing a mountain and realizing that blessings, answers, solutions were to be had by reading the top. On the way up, directly, a small path is noticed on the side, with an easy gradient. It's too often that men will take this path, thinking that the solutions will be found there. The deviation will take away the steepness of the gradient, but that is not the problem. The problem is obscurity, lack of direction , and the solution is reached by attaining to the commanding view at the mountain top. Which you cannot achieve if you only think of avoiding struggle.

Other individuals have attacked the problem, and come out with similar experiences, inability to overcome the problem of lack of direction.


Epicureanism is often mistaken to be love of pleasure, worldly, materialistic pursuit. That description correctly belongs to hedonism.

Epicurus was addressing the problem of suffering involved in life and the payback, the compensation for enduring that suffering. His answer was again that life was not worth that suffering. His solution was to reduce the suffering through planned, premeditated, conscious engagibg in specific activities. Remember, he wasn't solving the problem of futility. He was only alleviating the symptoms, just as the person who took aspirin to alleviate the SYMPTOMS of the brain tumor was doing. A stop gap.

What are those activities?

He realized that desire, craving, materialistic pleasure-seeking created it own suffering, so he taught against them. He taught that sustainable happiness was derived from living healthy lifestyle, spending time with pleasant people and enjoying aesthetic presentations. He believed that these experiences would 'cure' the effects of suffering

Interestingly, he fell fatally ill from kidney stones. He stated that memories of his good experiences carried him through the sickness, even whilst dying painfully from the inability to urinate.

Another world view which actively worked to avoid unpleasantness is logotherapy.

Invented by Viktor Frankl.


Frankl claimed people get depressed because they face hard tasks every day. He proposes they set themselves up some easy and enjoyable and ACHIEVABLE task so that they had a sense of achievement.
Also, he taught them to look at positive aspects of situations, as in the anecdote of the grieving husband.

A patient suffering the loss of his wife was told his situation was good. Would he have preferred it if his wife had lived and he was dead? By being widowed, he had saved his wife the suffering he was experiencing. The outcome was a better outcome.
Some criticised his methods as authoritarian. The therapist takes control of the patient's life, deciding on what he should focus on and how he should view it.
Bottom line, even this doesn't solve the problem. Ultimate meaninglessness.



Quote
Here we see one of Epicurus’ techniques for obtaining happiness even in the most miserable situation: instead of dwelling on the pain, recollect one of those moments in the past when you were most happy. Through enough training of the mind, you will be able to achieve such vividness of imagination that you can relive these experiences and that happiness. This idea is well illustrated by Victor Frankl, the Viennese psychiatrist who suffered four years in various concentration camps, including Auschwitz. Frankl writes that one of the few things that was able to give him a feeling of happiness was conjuring up an image of his beloved wife, and engaging in imaginary conversation with her. As he writes: "My mind clung to my wife's image, imagining it with an uncanny acuteness. I heard her answering me, saw her smile, her frank and encouraging look. Real or not, her look was then more luminous than the sun which was beginning to rise." (Frankl 1984, p. 57).


Epicurus

This must all seem like deja vu.
 
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ananda

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That was an intro. It takes a few posts to lay things out in perspective. Especially when the subject is complex. You focus on suffering, your single main concern is atomistic. Mine is holistic, deals with an host of interlinked, related issues.
I directly see dukkha as the seed, or the root, from which all of your other "interlinked, related issues" sprout from. In that sense, yes, my concern regarding dukkha can be called "atomistic".

I outlined the common trap men fall into when faced with obstacles. Mistaking the obvious for the ultimate. Seeing only the head ache, not the tumor.
You're suggesting that the headache is dukkha, and that a more fundamental problem (the tumor) produces the headache. As I posted in post 168 to @afishamongmany, I would ask you as well: "How would you suggest how I can directly observe" the tumor, the "deeper and more fundamental motivator than dukkha" which you allege?

The problem is obscurity, lack of direction , and the solution is reached by attaining to the commanding view at the mountain top. Which you cannot achieve if you only think of avoiding struggle. Other individuals have attacked the problem, and come out with similar experiences, inability to overcome the problem of lack of direction.
Are you claiming that Buddhism has a lack of direction?

Epicureanism ... Another world view which actively worked to avoid unpleasantness is logotherapy ... Invented by Viktor Frankl ... This must all seem like deja vu.
There are some passing similarities between Epicureanism & logotherapy with early Buddhism. What do you find significant about it?
 
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I directly see dukkha as the seed, or the root, from which all of your other "interlinked, related issues" sprout from. In that sense, yes, my concern regarding dukkha can be called "atomistic".

You're suggesting that the headache is dukkha, and that a more fundamental problem (the tumor) produces the headache. As I posted in post 168 to @afishamongmany, I would ask you as well: "How would you suggest how I can directly observe" the tumor, the "deeper and more fundamental motivator than dukkha" which you allege?

You say that the primary motive for life is alleviating dukkha, as, an activity like eating is to avoid suffering.

Obviously love cannot be the primary motive for eating as in a statement like "I eat to love" cannot be made in the same way a statement "I eat to avoid dukkha" can be. Your raison d'etre, main effort is therefore focused on discovering exercises that alleviating suffering.

However, eating may alleviate the suffering that is caused by not eating, but the problem of an unrewarding life does not go away.

You eat, you avoid suffering, you experience hunger after a while, you eat again, and the cycle continues ad nauseum. However, at the end of the day, you have nothing to show for it.

My life, on the other hand is focused on doing things that result in permanent payback. The term eternal life is misinterpreted to mean immortality when it actually means meaningful life, life lived that plays out in results, not results that perish, but results which are permanent (eternal!). Eternal life is much better translated as substantial life, as opposed to vaporous life.

To restate the mission statement:

I blank to harvest permanent fruit.

I blank to reap eternal crops.

I blank to gather grain with substance.


What is the activity that the place holder word "blank" stand for?


It is "suffer"!


Are you claiming that Buddhism has a lack of direction?

I'm claiming Buddhism has no answer to the question "What is the payback for the suffering of life?"

There are some passing similarities between Epicureanism & logotherapy with early Buddhism. What do you find significant about it?

They are all escapist in terms of purpose. The purpose of all the exercises is to avoid facing the reality that the life lived without discovery of purpose is futility.
 
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TheOldWays

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the views some Christians have on Buddhism is mind boggling but understandable as they are forced to see any other path but their own as false.

Buddhism isn't escapism. It helps one deal with the realities of life and see them for what they are. If I wanted to be generally more unhappy in life and have more struggles I would probably sign up for Christianity again. But for now, I am content being more at peace and having more compassion for others, so I will stick with my Buddhist practices.
 
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ananda

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... However, eating may alleviate the suffering that is caused by not eating, but the problem of an unrewarding life does not go away. ... However, at the end of the day, you have nothing to show for it.
The Buddha taught that the ordinary person seeks momentary pleasures to temporarily alleviate their dukkha. The dukkha then eventually returns, which compels the ordinary person to seek more pleasures. Yes, this is the samsaric cycle which the vast majority of individuals are stuck in. I agree that, for these people, "at the end of they day", they "have nothing to show for it".

The noble disciple who walks the Path, however, utilizes wisdom to permanently eliminate the delusions which cause the creation of dukkha; as a result, states of bliss are achieved, which is rewarding in and of itself. Each higher stage of bliss is - as I've experienced and known for myself - longer-lasting than lower stages, and nibbana, the final stage, is said to be timeless. I would not say that there is nothing to show for this process.

My life, on the other hand is focused on doing things that result in permanent payback.
As is mine. :)

I'm claiming Buddhism had no answer to the question "What is the payback for the suffering of life?"
I believe it does: the dukkha itself is supposed to teach those with open eyes to work towards transcending it.

They are all escapist in terms of purpose. The purpose of all the exercises is to avoid facing the reality that the life without discovery of purpose is futility.
What do you believe is this purpose? As far as I can tell (and know for myself), it is to escape dukkha.
 
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The Buddha taught that the ordinary person seeks momentary pleasures to temporarily alleviate their dukkha. The dukkha then eventually returns, which compels the ordinary person to seek more pleasures. Yes, this is the samsaric cycle which the vast majority of individuals are stuck in. I agree that, for these people, "at the end of they day", they "have nothing to show for it".

The noble disciple who walks the Path, however, utilizes wisdom to permanently eliminate the delusions which cause the creation of dukkha; as a result, states of bliss are achieved, which is rewarding in and of itself. Each higher stage of bliss is - as I've experienced and known for myself - longer-lasting than lower stages, and nibbana, the final stage, is said to be timeless. I would not say that there is nothing to show for this process.

Natural phenomena demonstrates a cycle or process which is universal, all pervasive. A bird strives, collects material, builds a nest.

The process can be described as "RESULTS emanate from effort". No gain without pain. Pain is not to be avoided, pain leads to gain, this pain not meaning calamity, but stress. Even your spiritual exercises come under the category of work, investment, taking something of value that belongs to you and contributing it to a purpose, some even (surprise, surprise!) placing it in the category of sacrifice.

Take the example of a wild horse. Born to roam vast spaces at high speed. Magnificent to behold. However, at the mercy of the elements and predators. Piteous to look at at the end of its life cycle. Ending up as a meal for carrion.


The same horse, in a farm, treads a different path. It submits to the reins and the saddle and the harness. It labours in partnership with the farmer. Contributes to a common goal. Benefits both itself and it's master. Stabled and protected and fed on a regular basis. In its old age, let out to pasture.

Or a tree. Left to itself as a wild seed, fulfilled by chance. Time causes degeneration. Loss of viability. Reduced to dust. However, the seed purchased, in submission to the sower, allows itself to be buried, grows in response to watering and nurturing, becomes a mighty giant, outliving even its caregiver/nurturer!

Or a man, seeking out God. Allowing himself to be buried. Rising as a transformed being. Partnering with God to subdue creation. Replicating the thematic process. Spontaneously. Of his own volition. With full consent.

As is mine.
clear_225197526.png

We are talking about fulfilling Creation here, at the galactic level.

I believe it does: the dukkha itself is supposed to teach those with open eyes to work towards transcending it.

The process is exemplar. All of creation waits with great expectation for the full revelation of the sons of God.

What do you believe is this purpose? As far as I can tell (and know for myself), it is to escape dukkha.

Nothing less than partnering with God in seeing through that which was planned for Creation, through its subduing.
 
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ananda

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Natural phenomena demonstrates a cycle or process which is universal, all pervasive. A bird strives, collects material, builds a nest.

The process can be described as "RESULTS emanate from effort". No gain without pain. Pain is not to be avoided, pain leads to gain, this pain not meaning calamity, but stress. Even your spiritual exercises come under the category of work, investment, taking something of value that belongs to you and contributing it to a purpose, some even (surprise, surprise!) placing it in the category of sacrifice.
I agree. I am not advocating the temporary avoidance of pain through momentary pleasures, but the permanent transcendence of dukkha through the work of gaining wisdom.

Take the example of a wild horse. Born to roam vast spaces at high speed. Magnificent to behold. However, at the mercy of the elements and predators. Piteous to look at at the end of its life cycle. Ending up as a meal for carrion.

The same horse, in a farm, treads a different path. It submits to the reins and the saddle and the harness. It labours in partnership with the farmer. Contributes to a common goal. Benefits both itself and it's master. Stabled and protected and fed on a regular basis. In its old age, let out to pasture.

Or a tree. Left to itself as a wild seed, fulfilled by chance. Time causes degeneration. Loss of viability. Reduced to dust. However, the seed purchased, in submission to the sower, allows itself to be buried, grows in response to watering and nurturing, becomes a mighty giant, outliving even its caregiver/nurturer!

Or a man, seeking out God. Allowing himself to be buried. Rising as a transformed being. Partnering with God to subdue creation. Replicating the thematic process. Spontaneously. Of his own volition. With full consent.

We are talking about fulfilling Creation here, at the galactic level.

The process is exemplar. All of creation waits with great expectation for the full revelation of the sons of God.

Nothing less than partnering with God in seeing through that which was planned for Creation, through its subduing.
The difference being, I can personally perceive a horse, a farmer, a tree, a seed, and its sower; I also perceive dukkha, and the Path which leads to cessation of dukkha. I do not perceive "God".
 
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I agree. I am not advocating the temporary avoidance of pain through momentary pleasures, but the permanent transcendence of dukkha through the work of gaining wisdom.

The difference being, I can personally perceive a horse, a farmer, a tree, a seed, and its sower; I also perceive dukkha, and the Path which leads to cessation of dukkha. I do not perceive "God".

You don't need to. Just pick up your cross, die and allow yourself to be resurrected.

Everyday.
 
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ananda

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You don't need to. Just pick up your cross, die and allow yourself to be resurrected.

Everyday.
Yes, I would say I do need to perceive "God", or at least gain direct experience and knowledge in some sort of way that the Christian God's path indeed leads to "resurrection".

As I posted previously in this thread, "IMO the genius of Gotama's Dhamma is that it is progressive and graduated - it is a map with multiple waymarkers. With the map (Dhamma) in hand, the Path (Eightfold) is to be traveled (practiced). The waymarkers, personally experienced, confirms for the disciple that he is indeed progressively unbinding & decreasing his own dukkha. By extrapolation, I can conceive how it leads to and ends in the ultimate unbinding (nibbana), like a man who can see that the road he's on indeed leads to the top of a mountain, even though he has not reached it yet."

The Christian path is not graduated, with inherently verifiable & observable waymarkers, as the Buddhist Path provides. That is, I cannot perceive for myself an observable gain in lifespan in the here-and-now by systematically practicing the Christian path, towards a goal of eternal life/resurrection. On the other hand, by systematically practicing the Buddhist Path, I can perceive for myself an observable gain in my bliss in the here-and-now, towards a goal of timeless bliss (nibbana).

Without such a method of confirmation, there is no reason to ultimately choose one (faith-based) path over another.
 
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Yes, I would say I do need to perceive "God", or at least gain direct experience and knowledge in some sort of way that the Christian God's path indeed leads to "resurrection".

As I posted previously in this thread, "IMO the genius of Gotama's Dhamma is that it is progressive and graduated - it is a map with multiple waymarkers. With the map (Dhamma) in hand, the Path (Eightfold) is to be traveled (practiced). The waymarkers, personally experienced, confirms for the disciple that he is indeed progressively unbinding & decreasing his own dukkha. By extrapolation, I can conceive how it leads to and ends in the ultimate unbinding (nibbana), like a man who can see that the road he's on indeed leads to the top of a mountain, even though he has not reached it yet."

The Christian path is not, as the Buddhist Path provides. That is, I cannot perceive for myself an observable gain in lifespan in the here-and-now by systematically practicing the Christian path, towards a goal of eternal life/resurrection. On the other hand, by systematically practicing the Buddhist Path, I can perceive for myself an observable gain in my bliss in the here-and-now, towards a goal of timeless bliss (nibbana).

Without such a method of confirmation, there is no reason to ultimately choose one (faith-based) path over another.


I read that post and I noticed that proof is empirical in Buddhism. Youse pays your money, youse gets what youse pays for.

What do you think you get in the Abrahamic tradition?

Do we see a trend of investing and reaping? We do. Where?

Abraham obeys God and leaves his home to follow God. God rewards him with great wealth. Notice that this is not a great sacrifice. The region is remarkably fertile and it doesn't require great risk to set out with a few sheep and camels and not die.

However, God causes a famine to occur and it would seem obvious to any observer that the action Abraham needed to take was to stay put. God had already shown his dependability. However, Abraham leaves for Egypt, where he let's it be known that Sarah is his sister. Again, unnecessary.

Finally, Abraham changes his attitude. When God asks him to sacrifice Isaac, he trusts God to favor him. Why? Because God has shown His dependability. Not once but several times. Now Abraham can pick up that cross without fear, confident that God will ‘save’, ‘resurrect’.

Why were the early Christians so brave?

Because they saw Jesus pick up his cross everyday and God resurrected him, made him come out on top. Finally in the eponymous event at Calvary, a real cross was picked up and a real resurrection took place.
 
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