Why seek "God"?

[ananda]

I read that post and I noticed that proof is empirical in Buddhism. Youse pays your money, youse gets what youse pays for.

What do you think you get in the Abrahamic tradition?

Do we see a trend of investing and reaping? We do. Where?

Abraham obeys God and leaves his home to follow God. God rewards him with great wealth. Notice that this is not a great sacrifice. The region is remarkably fertile and it doesn't require great risk to set out with a few sheep and camels and not die.

However, God causes a famine to occur and it would seem obvious to any observer that the action Abraham needed to take was to stay put. God had already shown his dependability. However, Abraham leaves for Egypt, where he let's it be known that Sarah is his sister. Again, unnecessary.

Finally, Abraham changes his attitude. When God asks him to sacrifice Isaac, he trusts God to favor him. Why? Because God has shown His dependability. Not once but several times. Now Abraham can pick up that cross without fear, confident that God will ‘save’, ‘resurrect’.

Why were the early Christians so brave?

Because they saw Jesus pick up his cross everyday and God resurrected him, made him come out on top. Finally in the eponymous event at Calvary, a real cross was picked up and a real resurrection took place.

The stories you quoted regarding Abraham, Sarah, God, Jesus, etc. are, unfortunately simply hearsay, and none which I can verify or confirm truly happened - for myself. Nor can I verify the stories about Mohammed riding a flying horse, nor about the pranks of Krishna, or of the feats of Hercules, Isis, Osiris, or the miracles of Ahura Mazda.

That's a core premise of this thread ... personal experience.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The stories you quoted regarding Abraham, Sarah, God, Jesus, etc. are, unfortunately simply hearsay, and none which I can verify or confirm truly happened - for myself. Nor can I verify the stories about Mohammed riding a flying horse, nor about the pranks of Krishna, or of the feats of Hercules, Isis, Osiris, or the miracles of Ahura Mazda.

That's a core premise of this thread ... personal experience.

Well the Abrahamic traditions are still alive, so we still get what Abraham got, and what the disciples got: trust God (pick up our cross, suffer, risk,invest) and be resurrected.

However, it is a graduated experience, the more you invest, the higher the returns.

Jesus said that if one wants to be perfect, one has to give up everything and follow him.

So that is the mountain top experience, what one must work towards. Even in the time of the first Christians, everyone knew that was the goal. Those who did it had hands laid on them and they could go out and do the things Jesus had done. There was a further step, which would lead to doing even greater things than what Jesus had done.

So they joined the church and waited for the faith to take that step. No force was applied. No one was pushed to do heroic things like abandoning worldly goods and efforts to making a living. Each could do whatever they wanted with their possessions and their time, their resources and their efforts.

However, everyone knew that mountain was there, to be climbed, for the reward.

That means if I give up the things of the world, I would begin to have those experiences. First I would be lifted up, be blessed with great resources and responsibility. A very real cause and effect, as many who have already experienced it will tell you: they gave up all worldly property and God put them in charge of a hundred times the resources they had given away. They resisted the pressure to materially enrich their family endlessly and God gave them bigger families who they could enrich spiritually and without limit.

However, even those who had not given up everything could experience these blessings, albeit at a lesser level.

Before I expand on that issue, I'd like to state that these great works are not gratuitous exhibitions of power performed to become famous or rich. Jesus resisted the temptation to do superhuman tasks so that the world would fall at his feet. He did only what God prompted him to do, revealed only those revelations hidden in Scripture that God permitted him to reveal. Those works would have caused even non Jews to abandon futile living and follow God, but the record shows that Israel was hardened, and could not enter rest, SEE the mountain top, much less set out to climb.

They were turned into ignoble vessels, used by God to strike the rock, so that living waters could flow out and bless the Gentile. There is a downside to asking for proof just for the motive of discrediting. You will be exposed to the experience, the sign of Jonah.

That is the nature of the experience. To have the ability to do those works capable of motivating men to repent, turn away from following futile living and embark on eternal type living...

 

[ananda]

However, it is a graduated experience, the more you invest, the higher the returns ... Those who did it had hands laid on them and they could go out and do the things Jesus had done. There was a further step, which would lead to doing even greater things than what Jesus had done. ... I would begin to have those experiences. First I would be lifted up, be blessed with great resources and responsibility. A very real cause and effect, as many who have already experienced it will tell you: they gave up all worldly property and God put them in charge of a hundred times the resources they had given away. They resisted the pressure to materially enrich their family endlessly and God gave them bigger families who they could enrich spiritually and without limit ... However, even those who had not given up everything could experience these blessings, albeit at a lesser level.

The issue I see is that people ultimately seek God because they wish to relieve their dukkha. That, they seek from God more life, more wealth, more resources, more family, eternal life, etc.; these things, however, are not an end unto themselves; their inherent value is in their potential to relieve dukkha in various ways.

I have seen faithful Christians gain, and other faithful Christians experience loss. I have also seen Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. experience gain and loss. I cannot say that any of the above has been the result of God's work, because I do not perceive God, or God in action. In short, I have no proof that God was the cause behind all those effects.

(On a side, but related note: early Buddhism - the only religion, to my knowledge - teaches that less, not more, reveals higher states of bliss & release from dukkha. I have found this to be true in my own practice. E.g. The Eightfold Path is the Path to unbinding/minimalism - in short, less of everything. Meditation is a systematic process of detaching.)

 

[Wordkeeper]

The issue I see is that people ultimately seek God because they wish to relieve their dukkha. That, they seek from God more life, more wealth, more resources, more family, eternal life, etc.; these things, however, are not an end unto themselves; their inherent value is in their potential to relieve dukkha in various ways.

I have seen faithful Christians gain, and other faithful Christians experience loss. I have also seen Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. experience gain and loss. I cannot say that any of the above has been the result of God's work, because I do not perceive God, or God in action. In short, I have no proof that God was the cause behind all those effects.

(On a side, but related note: early Buddhism - the only religion, to my knowledge - teaches that less, not more, reveals higher states of bliss & release from dukkha. I have found this to be true in my own practice. E.g. The Eightfold Path is the Path to unbinding/minimalism - in short, less of everything. Meditation is a systematic process of detaching.)

The point is that at the end of the day you have nothing to show for it.

This absurd situation goes against the grain when all of nature reveals a model of gain as a result of investment.

Animals go through the process without realising the futility of their existence.

Only man sees the end and feels angst.

Only Christianity explains the purpose of man's existence.

Only Christianity reveals the Way of fulfilling that purpose.

Only Christianity provides proof of the efficacy of the Way.

Unless the seed dies it cannot fulfil its existence.


International Standard Version John 12
24Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it produces a lot of grain.

 

[ananda]

The point is that at the end of the day you have nothing to show for it.

I'll beg to differ ... I do have something to show for my walk in the Buddhist Path: I experience far less ongoing dukkha in my life, and more bliss. Being less attached to this world, I create less dukkha for others as well.

This absurd situation goes against the grain when all of nature reveals a model of gain as a result of investment.

I don't believe I was speaking of investment. I was speaking of attachment, which is a separate subject altogether.

Animals go through the process without realising the futility of their existence. Only man sees the end and feels angst. Only Christianity explains the purpose of man's existence. Only Christianity reveals the Way of fulfilling that purpose. Only Christianity provides proof of the efficacy of the Way. Unless the seed dies it cannot fulfil its existence. International Standard Version John 12 24Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it produces a lot of grain.

Christianity is not the only religion which offers dogmatic explanations for the purpose of man's existence, or a way to fulfill that purpose. And, unfortunately, I see no proof of the efficacy of the Christian way, except claims that it is so.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'll beg to differ ... I do have something to show for my walk in the Buddhist Path: I experience far less ongoing dukkha in my life, and more bliss. Being less attached to this world, I create less dukkha for others as well.

The predicament remains. You are using aspirin to cure a tumor. The relief is temporary. The patient will still die from the tumor, albeit with less pain.

I don't believe I was speaking of investment. I was speaking of attachment, which is a separate subject altogether.

Your investment ( spiritual exercise)led to detachment, removal of craving or pressure. You haven't solved the problem of purpose.

Christianity is not the only religion which offers dogmatic explanations for the purpose of man's existence, or a way to fulfill that purpose. And, unfortunately, I see no proof of the efficacy of the Christian way, except claims that it is so.

I repeat, giving up faith in the world for faith in God , repentance, leads to perfection, maturity, fulfilment, ability to carry out the purpose of our creation, to subdue Creation. To harness the futile thrashings of Creation for productive use. The results of which will last forever.

The proof is resurrection. Every time Jesus went to speak to those in the darkness, he did not worry what he needed to do or what words he needed to say. God through the Holy Spirit gave him the works to do the words to say. Dangerous, because men were stoned for unfulfilled prophecy, for not performing as promised, for claiming to be the Anointed One.

Every time he went out on a limb, was in positions where the crowd could have torn him apart, God came through. Picking up the cross, dying, being raised up.

A bit like what's happening now. If I was perfected, like the disciples who left everything to follow God, even the demons would submit to me. I pray everyday it will happen, but God says that his grace is sufficient for me. Right now, I'm only unlocking his revelations. As scripture says, the people of God demand signs, superior interpretation of scripture, and the people of the world demand wisdom, a superior philosophy.

If these words and works were done in the presence of the unlearned, they would repent in ashes and turn to God. Learning isn't the guarantee for responsiveness. More's the pity.

 

[ananda]

The predicament remains. You are using aspirin to cure a tumor. The relief is temporary. The patient will still die from the tumor, albeit with less pain.

What is the "tumor", if dukkha is only a symptom of the tumor, and how can I directly observe this alleged tumor?

Your investment ( spiritual exercise)led to detachment, removal of craving or pressure. You haven't solved the problem of purpose.

I disagree; it just seems to me that we have different ideas regarding "purpose". As I understand it, your idea of "purpose" involves attachments to an unseen, imagined future, or an unseen, unprovable past. Buddhism's purpose involves what is knowable - observation of issues which affect the present, in the here-and-now.

I repeat, giving up faith in the world for faith in God , repentance, leads to perfection, maturity, fulfilment, ability to carry out the purpose of our creation, to subdue Creation. To harness the futile thrashings of Creation for productive use. The results of which will last forever.

Are you advocating that we should have faith in Allah?

The proof is resurrection. Every time Jesus went to speak to those in the darkness, he did not worry what he needed to do or what words he needed to say. God through the Holy Spirit gave him the works to do the words to say. Dangerous, because men were stoned for unfulfilled prophecy, for not performing as promised, for claiming to be the Anointed One ... Every time he went out on a limb, was in positions where the crowd could have torn him apart, God came through. Picking up the cross, dying, being raised up ... A bit like what's happening now. If I was perfected, like the disciples who left everything to follow God, even the demons would submit to me. I pray everyday it will happen, but God says that his grace is sufficient for me.

As I've written before: unfortunately this, to me, is simply hearsay, none of which I can verify or confirm truly happened for myself.

Right now, I'm only unlocking his revelations. As scripture says, the people of God demand signs, superior interpretation of scripture, and the people of the world demand wisdom, a superior philosophy. If these words and works were done in the presence of the unlearned, they would repent in ashes and turn to God. Learning isn't the guarantee for responsiveness. More's the pity.

I have not observed for myself any of these alleged words or works.

 

[ananda]

I agree with the feminist who critiqued the Buddha for leaving his wife and family. I heard this poem years ago, but unfortunately her name escapes me at the moment, but it was shaming Gothama for thinking that bliss had to be found outside of relationships.

What is the shame in Gotama doing what was commendable according to Indian culture and philosophy of his day (and in many ways, this is still respected today there)?

There is something very masculine but also very delusional about thinking that transcendence is the height of spirituality.

Do you believe it less delusional to have blind faith in what is not directly known?

 

[FireDragon76]

What is the shame in Gotama doing what was commendable according to Indian culture and philosophy of his day (and in many ways, this is still respected today there)?

Actually, in Indian culture, in Hinduism, one is supposed to not abandon ones duties in the name of asceticism. There is a time and a place for the life of the forest-dweller. Hinduism is not so world-denying, one reason Buddhism had a difficult time there after the Vedantists integrated apophatic mysticism into their religion.

And as the poem went, it was something like shaming teh Buddha for thinking that one could not find bliss in family life, and setting the precedent for considering relationships like that expendable. I think that's a good feminist critique of any religion so focused on transcendence they leave the world behind. There's an echo of this in Mahayana Buddhism as well. Particularly in the heart sutra.

Do you believe it less delusional to have blind faith in what is not directly known?

No. Christian faith is not "blind faith". Buddhists like to use that polemic alot against Christians but it's really quite unfair. Some of us have spent a lot of time considering these things.

 

[ananda]

Actually, in Indian culture, in Hinduism, one is supposed to not abandon ones duties in the name of asceticism. There is a time and a place for the life of the forest-dweller. Hinduism is not so world-denying, one reason Buddhism had a difficult time there after the Vedantists integrated apophatic mysticism into their religion.

And as the poem went, it was something like shaming teh Buddha for thinking that one could not find bliss in family life, and setting the precedent for considering relationships like that expendable. I think that's a good feminist critique of any religion so focused on transcendence they leave the world behind. There's an echo of this in Mahayana Buddhism as well. Particularly in the heart sutra.

I assume Gotama was quite wealthy, being the son of a ruler, and ensured that his wife & child had their material requisites they needed, before leaving for the life of a samana. This, from what I read, was honorable in Vedic culture at that time. In Buddhist societies today, this act is still considered a great honor and blessing, for the individual, and his or her family. There are still two major branches of Hinduism today, one involving the priesthood, the other involving sramanas.

The ultimate bliss cannot be found in family life, as it involves many obvious attachments.

No. Christian faith is not "blind faith". Buddhists like to use that polemic alot against Christians but it's really quite unfair. Some of us have spent a lot of time considering these things.

It is direct knowledge which I contrast with blind faith. I can't see how "consideration" can be considered a form of direct knowledge (e.g. I cannot "consider" the crucifixion, turning the crucifixion into direct knowledge).

 

[Rajni]

Actually, in Indian culture, in Hinduism, one is supposed to not abandon ones duties in the name of asceticism.

This is where the method of practicing the presence of God is
helpful, and both Christianity and Hinduism touch upon this. There
need not be a separation of secular and sacred; it all becomes
sacred when done with the motive of doing things out of love for the
Lord. It gives one the sense that all of life is one big worship-service.

A couple of comparable verses, in chronological order (yeah,
evidently Krishna said it first ) :

“Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer or give
away, and whatever austerities you perform—do that, O son of
Kunti, as an offering to Me.” [Bhagavad Gita 9.27]

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the
glory of God." [1 Corinthians 10:31]

I think Buddhism and Christianity/Hinduism just may be two sides
of the same coin. One tells you the "how", the other tells you the
"why".

-

 

[ananda]

...I think Buddhism and Christianity/Hinduism just may be two sides of the same coin. One tells you the "how", the other tells you the "why".-

How are we be sure that Christianity/Hinduism answers the "why", and not Islam, or Zoroastrianism, or Greek or Roman mythology, etc.?

 

[Rajni]

How are we be sure that Christianity/Hinduism answers the "why", and not Islam, or Zoroastrianism, or Greek or Roman mythology, etc.?

Oh they could as well; it's just that since Christianity and Hinduism were specifically mentioned here that I listed them.

-

 

[FireDragon76]

The ultimate bliss cannot be found in family life, as it involves many obvious attachments..

Go read the Heart Sutra some time. Theravada Buddhism is an unimaginative perspective, frankly, in comparison, as it's attached to not being attached to anything.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm grateful to Mahayana Buddhism to awakening me to a spiritual dimension to life, to life being sacred and that it could be lived purposefully. That was a new concept to me. I think many people, even Christians, have a problem connecting with this sense of sacredness and purpose. So much of our culture is rationalistic, even our religion.

I would say Jesus offers us something similar to the Bodhisattva ideal. He offers us a cross, by which we can become partakers of his nature. There is a sacred dimension to life present in Christianity as well as Mahayana Buddhism.

 

[ananda]

Go read the Heart Sutra some time.

I've read it in multiple translations, and I find it to be irrational and uninspired, being a dogmatic scripture for yet another blind faith-based religion ... albeit with (semi) Buddhist characters.

Theravada Buddhism is an unimaginative perspective, frankly, in comparison,

I do not practice Theravada. However, I do not seek imagination in my religion, but practical substance grounded in verifiable reality.

as it's attached to not being attached to anything.

However, in the early Buddhist texts, Ven. Ananda spoke on this very topic. A Brahman questioned him, claiming "it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire". The Venerable explained the seeming contradiction with an answer which satisfied me. (Brahmana Sutta, SN 51.15).

 

[ananda]

I'm grateful to Mahayana Buddhism to awakening me to a spiritual dimension to life, to life being sacred and that it could be lived purposefully. That was a new concept to me. I think many people, even Christians, have a problem connecting with this sense of sacredness and purpose. So much of our culture is rationalistic, even our religion.

I'm glad to hear that it brought you awakening. Isn't thats one of the main things which we're all searching for, in our own ways?

I would say Jesus offers us something similar to the Bodhisattva ideal. He offers us a cross, by which we can become partakers of his nature. There is a sacred dimension to life present in Christianity as well as Mahayana Buddhism.

Bodhisattas are unenlightened in early Buddhism, e.g. "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta ..." (MN 19, cf MN 4, MN 36, MN 26, etc.)

 

[Wordkeeper]

What is the "tumor", if dukkha is only a symptom of the tumor, and how can I directly observe this alleged tumor?

The tumor is the human predicament. A life lived with difficulty with no returns.

I disagree; it just seems to me that we have different ideas regarding "purpose". As I understand it, your idea of "purpose" involves attachments to an unseen, imagined future, or an unseen, unprovable past. Buddhism's purpose involves what is knowable - observation of issues which affect the present, in the here-and-now.

What you call the unseen, unprovable past is provable through repeatability. If I pick up my cross today and die, I am raised again. The dying on the cross is going out on a limb. The resurrection is the limb not breaking. I set out to answer questions about life, questions great thinkers have not provided, questions that tripped them up, so probably will ask trip the Bible up, but they don't, are cogent and lucid, lift up the Bible, resurrect it. Proof of the truth of the unseen past.

When God commanded Moses to bring Israel out of Egypt, Moses reasoned wwth Him that it would be unlike for Israel to leave a secure situation for a risky one. Egypt wasn't a good situation, but trekking across a desert for an unseen destination was even worse. God gave Moses signs to perform so that Israel would have confidence to follow Moses out of Egypt.

When I speak with friends about repentance, meta noia, changing their mind from depending on the world for a perishable wealth to depending on God for an imperishable wealth, highly counterintuitive, but I provide answers to philosophical problems that can be quite compelling, can cause obedience. Those who have actually left worldly dependence can even perform miraculous signs to confirm the truth of the necessity to leave Mammon and follow God.

On the other hand, you do spiritual exercises that dull desire and attachment, but leave the problem of the purpose of your existence unsolved.

Are you advocating that we should have faith in Allah?

The Abrahamic faith traditions share a common Semitic language root. El, Allah, are all used. They mean the same, but may be misapplied in some traditions.

As I've written before: unfortunately this, to me, is simply hearsay, none of which I can verify or confirm truly happened for myself.

The revelations I shared are through the Scriptures. You can deny that they answer the question of why man was created, but you should know that all inadequacies can be overlooked, but not the non compliant act of sinning against the Holy Spirit.

I have not observed for myself any of these alleged words or works.

I have provided a revelation from Scripture that would cause unlearned people to turn away from Mammon to serve God. You may deny that this great wisdom, wisdom that the queen of the South would have travelled many miles to hear, is from the One who created you, One who has ignored past deficiencies, but is now demanding full
compliance, but it's on your own head.

 

[FireDragon76]

However, in the early Buddhist texts, Ven. Ananda spoke on this very topic. A Brahman questioned him, claiming "it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire". The Venerable explained the seeming contradiction with an answer which satisfied me. (Brahmana Sutta, SN 51.15).

that seems to be an appeal to faith in the end. We are just supposed to take Buddha at his word that he really was enlightened. It doesn't really dispel the paradox.

Bodhisattas are unenlightened in early Buddhism, e.g. "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta ..." (MN 19, cf MN 4, MN 36, MN 26, etc.)

It's only an analogy. I no longer have faith the Buddha was uniquely enlightened.

You did ask us "Why seek "God"?". A "purpose-driven" life is one such reason. Psychologists will tell you human beings are goal-oriented to one degree or another, we tend to thrive when we set goals for ourselves and work towards them. Without these things we tend to become apathetic and listless.

 

[ananda]

The tumor is the human predicament. A life lived with difficulty with no returns.

Is "a life lived with difficulty" any different than dukkha? It sounds like your idea of "tumor" is the same as mine.

What you call the unseen, unprovable past is provable through repeatability. If I pick up my cross today and die, I am raised again. The dying on the cross is going out on a limb. The resurrection is the limb not breaking.

Is it your claim that all Jesus did to redeem mankind was that he went out on a limb?

I set out to answer questions about life, questions great thinkers have not provided, questions that tripped them up, so probably will ask trip the Bible up, but they don't, are cogent and lucid, lift up the Bible, resurrect it. Proof of the truth of the unseen past.

When God commanded Moses to bring Israel out of Egypt, Moses reasoned wwth Him that it would be unlike for Israel to leave a secure situation for a risky one. Egypt wasn't a good situation, but trekking across a desert for an unseen destination was even worse. God gave Moses signs to perform so that Israel would have confidence to follow Moses out of Egypt.

When I speak with friends about repentance, meta noia, changing their mind from depending on the world for a perishable wealth to depending on God for an imperishable wealth, highly counterintuitive, but I provide answers to philosophical problems that can be quite compelling, can cause obedience. Those who have actually left worldly dependence can even perform miraculous signs to confirm the truth of the necessity to leave Mammon and follow God.

I've yet to see proof of the unseen past, in your claims here, or otherwise.

On the other hand, you do spiritual exercises that dull desire and attachment, but leave the problem of the purpose of your existence unsolved.

Not at all. Considering that the fundamental problem of the purpose of my existence is dukkha, my spiritual walk addresses that issue directly, and leads to states of bliss I've found nowhere else in ordinary life.

The Abrahamic faith traditions share a common Semitic language root. El, Allah, are all used. They mean the same, but may be misapplied in some traditions.

Do you pray towards Mecca, as required by Allah?

The revelations I shared are through the Scriptures. You can deny that they answer the question of why man was created, but you should know that all inadequacies can be overlooked, but not the non compliant act of sinning against the Holy Spirit.

I have not verified the existence of the "Holy Spirit".

I have provided a revelation from Scripture that would cause unlearned people to turn away from Mammon to serve God. You may deny that this great wisdom, wisdom that the queen of the South would have travelled many miles to hear, is from the One who created you, One who has ignored past deficiencies, but is now demanding full
compliance, but it's on your own head.

I deny that revelation is equal to direct knowledge. In fact, the concept of revelation is opposed to direct knowledge.