WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[BNR32FAN]

Are you perhaps referring to Eph 2:8-9? That passage does not say that our salvation does not require any action on our part. Many people teach that it does, but they are wrong.

Salvation is by grace (the gift of God) through faith (action motivating and producing belief). “Not of works” refers not to how we receive salvation, but to how and why He offered us grace to begin with.

Beyond that, there are numerous passages that say explicitly that action is required to receive salvation. Rom 10:9-10 is one of the most explicit. “…if you confess with the mouth…” God could not be more clear that a physical action is taking place here, and that physical action leads to (not flows from) the reception of salvation.

Personally I prefer John 15:1-10 or Matthew 7:21-27. I think both of these strongly support your position here.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Doug Brents replied [post #1252], "Just FYI, Heb 10:10 says “once for all”, not ‘once and for all’.

“Once for all” means that Christ died once, and His sacrifice was for all (unlike the repetitive sacrifices of the Old Covenant).
This is not the common saying “once and for all” implying “finally” or “at long last” (which is true, but not the implication of this verse."

My Reply :

Yes, I would agree with your statement that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all" in the sense that it was unlike [and vastly superior to] the repetitive sacrifices of the Old Covenant; however, I would disagree with you as it pertains to the implications of a believer's eternal security. The critical verse that adds more substance to that discussion is found in verse 14.

Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." [KJV].

Hebrews 10 :14 - Greek interlinear :

"By one [mia] for [gar] offering [prosphora] He has perfected [teteleiōken] for all time [eis to diēnekes] those [tous] being sanctified [hagiazomenous]."

"He has perfected" - root - Strong's #5048. teleioó
teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Usage: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

"being sanctified" - root - Strong's #37. hagiazó
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

Where should the emphasis be placed?

Generally speaking, those of the LOS [Loss Of Salvation] camp emphasize the aspect of the singularity of Christ's sacrifice [i.e. - it's completeness and sufficiency for the forgiveness and redemption of humanity throughout all of history] ... "For by one offering." That is, Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins [forever abolishing the need of it's repetition, as well as the Old Covenant sacrificial system]. It was Christ's singular act of atonement that provided a perfect and acceptable sacrifice which alone could satisfy God's holy righteousness and justice].

On the other hand, the opposing camp, the OJAS ["Once Justified, Always Justified"] or OASAAS ["Once Actually Saved, Always Actually Saved"] advocates by and large focus upon the resulting effect of Christ's singular sacrifice upon those who have placed their faith in it's efficacy and sufficiency to obtain their right-standing before God ... "he hath perfected for ever [for all time] them that are sanctified [those being sanctified]." To state it in a slightly different manner for further clarity ... "those being sanctified" - all those who, from age to age, through faith receive as their own that which has been procured for all men.

Although it is true that we do not have an "either/or", but rather a "both/and" scenario in view here [each camp representing one-half of the dual truths declared in Hebrews 10:14], it appears to me that there is compelling evidence contained within this verse supporting the OJAJ position.

Should we view the sanctification spoken of here ["those being sanctified"] in a positional or progressive sense?

Although it certainly looks to me that positional sanctification is in view here, a person's perspective on this issue actually matters little as it pertains to the question of the eternal security of the believer [as I will attempt to demonstrate by the following truth claims].

(1) A person cannot be progressively sanctified unless he/she has been positionally sanctified [or set apart by God as holy].

(2) A person cannot be sanctified in either a positional or progressive sense without also experiencing a justified status before God. [1 Corinthians 6:11].

(3) All those who have been justified will also be glorified [in both it's "already" and "not yet" dimensions]. Although glorification is viewed as including a present [continous] sanctifying/transformational work of the Holy Spirit operating in the lives of believers, there is also a future aspect attached to it ... the reception of a glorified body - a resurrection body in Heaven.

Therefore, positional and progressive sanctification, as well as the [ultimate] redemption of the body, are states that will be actualized in all of those ["from age to age"] who experience a justified status before God.

Romans 6:5 [Greek Interlinear] - "If [Ei] for [gar] united [symphytoi] we have become [gegonamen] in the [tō] likeness [homoiōmati] of the [tou] death [thanatou] of Him [autou] certainly [alla] also [kai] of the [tēs] resurrection [anastaseōs] we will be [esometha]."

Romans 6:5 [English Standard Version] - "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."... it certainly [alla] sounds to me that both OJAJ [Once Justified, Always Justified] and OASAAS [Once Actually Saved, Always Actually Saved] are truths proclaimed by the scriptures .... it doesn't get any better than this my friends!!! ... All Praise and Glory to Jesus Christ! - The [Singular] Precious Lamb of God!!!

[see post #103, "Further thoughts on the glorification of God's elect"] < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

[also, see post #63,"Connecting the Dots between Justification and Glorification" < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

What are your thoughts on 2 Timothy 2:11-13? Is Paul advocating for eternal security or conditional salvation?

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Brightfame52]

[STAFF EDITED - DELETED QUOTE]
Hey you just dont believe in Salvation by Grace.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hey you just dont believe in Salvation by Grace.

No one believes in salvation by Grace if they are disobedient to the faith because Gods' Grace is given to us to be obedient to the faith *see Romans 1:5 and Titus 2:11-12

 

[Doug Brents]

Hey you just dont believe in Salvation by Grace.

Absolutely wrong.
There was nothing we could have done to cause God to forgive us. Nothing we have done is worth the life of our God.
But he gave us the gift (grace) of His Son to pay the price for our sin, and He set conditions for our reception of the benefit of that gift (repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus’ name (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16)). These conditions do not negate the fact that the gift is Grace.

 

[Brightfame52]

No one believes in salvation by Grace if they are disobedient to the faith because Gods' Grace is given to us to be obedient to the faith *see Romans 1:5 and Titus 2:11-12

It still seems you promote salvation by works, contrary to salvation by grace.

 

[Brightfame52]

Absolutely wrong.
There was nothing we could have done to cause God to forgive us. Nothing we have done is worth the life of our God.
But he gave us the gift (grace) of His Son to pay the price for our sin, and He set conditions for our reception of the benefit of that gift (repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus’ name (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16)). These conditions do not negate the fact that the gift is Grace.

Conditions ?? This sounds like Salvation by works. Scripture teaches against that.

 

[Doug Brents]

Conditions ?? This sounds like Salvation by works. Scripture teaches against that.

No, Scripture does NOT teach against man being required to take action to receive salvation. It teaches that we cannot EARN salvation by our actions, but it does not teach that we don’t have to do anything at all.

Consider Rom 10:9-10 for example. Confession of Jesus’ name “with the mouth” is clearly a physical act. And these verses say that it leads to salvation (not that it flows from having received salvation). That verse alone destroys the concept of a “works free” salvation.

That doesn’t mean that confessing Jesus’ name earns salvation; the life of my Lord is not that cheep, but it is a condition that, if it is not met along with the other conditions mentioned in Scripture, results in salvation NOT being received.

 

[rwe2156]

The Scriptures aren't 100% clear. This has been debated for millennia. You can't make a dogmatic statement either way.

The eternal question: "How can I know for sure"? My mind is faulty and subject to illusions, my heart is flesh and the source of sin. If I exhibit evidence to other men, I will be reassured. But God knows what is inside us, some will hear "I never knew you."

No, cannot be "I must do this, I must not do that" nor can it be "I can do anything I want". Rather, it is If Saved, Always Saved. Its "I hate the sin I do, but I do it anyway, God help me!"

Too many Christians have a counterfeit salvation, prescribed and approved by whatever Denomination. But you can't lose what you never had, but you can do works of the Spirit without the Spirit and look good on the surface.

If our salvation depended on us "maintaining" it, we would all be doomed. If you really have it, be reassured that God will see you thru to the end.

 

[rwe2156]

The Scriptures aren't 100% clear. This has been debated for millennia. You can't make a dogmatic statement either way.

The eternal question: "How can I know for sure"? My mind is faulty and subject to illusions, my heart is flesh and the source of sin. If I exhibit evidence to other men, I will be reassured. But God knows what is inside us, some will hear "I never knew you."

No, cannot be "I must do this, I must not do that" nor can it be "I can do anything I want". Rather, it is If Saved, Always Saved. Its "I hate the sin I do, but I do it anyway, God help me!"

Too many Christians have a counterfeit salvation, prescribed and approved by whatever Denomination. But you can't lose what you never had, but you can do works of the Spirit without the Spirit and look good on the surface.

If our salvation depended on us "maintaining" it, we would all be doomed. If you really have it, be reassured that God will see you thru to the end.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Scriptures aren't 100% clear. This has been debated for millennia. You can't make a dogmatic statement either way.

I’m sorry, but Scripture is very clear, and you can be 100% sure. This has been debated for millennia because Satan is the ultimate liar, man’s heart is wicked and easily swayed away from God, and it is easier to believe that we don’t have to physically do anything than it is to obey.

It is very clear that “he who believes and is baptized will be saved”, “if you confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart … you will be saved”, and “Repent … that your sins may be blotted out”. Now, understanding that there is only one author of Scripture, and that He does not make mistakes or say things incorrectly, all of these statements must be equally true and applicable at the same time to every person. All of them are required for any individual to receive salvation.

 

[Danthemailman]

I often hear those who subscribe to works-salvation misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way which means we can believe unto righteousness today, (see Romans 4:5) but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their “mouth.”

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Those who teach the 4 step plan of salvation 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Get baptized then finally saved after baptism are in contradiction with “confession is made unto salvation.” Step 3 precedes step 4. Water baptism “follows” believing in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-48)

 

[Brightfame52]

No, Scripture does NOT teach against man being required to take action to receive salvation. It teaches that we cannot EARN salvation by our actions, but it does not teach that we don’t have to do anything at all.

Consider Rom 10:9-10 for example. Confession of Jesus’ name “with the mouth” is clearly a physical act. And these verses say that it leads to salvation (not that it flows from having received salvation). That verse alone destroys the concept of a “works free” salvation.

That doesn’t mean that confessing Jesus’ name earns salvation; the life of my Lord is not that cheep, but it is a condition that, if it is not met along with the other conditions mentioned in Scripture, results in salvation NOT being received.

Scripture teaches Salvation is by Grace apart from works, conditions

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It still seems you promote salvation by works, contrary to salvation by grace.

No not at all. I promote what the scriptures teach. Faith according to James and Paul is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says *James 2:13-26; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 11:1-40. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.

According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by genuine faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. Therefore according to the scriptures, we demonstrate our faith by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils and is not saving faith which is why Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them" *Matthew 7:12-23.

Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12).

We must be careful to believe and follow what God's Word says as it is only those who believe and follow that Jesus calls "His sheep" in John 10:26-27 and only those who "do" the will of the father that enter into Gods' kingdom according to Jesus in Matthew 7:21.

Take Care.

 

[Doug Brents]

I often hear those who subscribe to works-salvation misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way which means we can believe unto righteousness today, (see Romans 4:5) but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their “mouth.”

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

You have made this argument many times, and it makes no more sense now then it did before. No, repent and confess are not necessarily separate in time. They can, and should, be done at the same time. When you read Acts, you see that a powerful urgency in placed on action immediately after someone believes the Gsuospel. Why? Because once someone believes the Gospel, they should take action (faith) on that belief, and obey the Gospel so that they can receive salvation.

Let me ask you a question: can someone confess the name of Jesus if they do not believe that He is the Savior God? Does it make any difference to their salvation if they confess His name, before they believe He is who He said He is? No, it makes no difference; they remain lost, because just calling on His name does not save. If it did, then everyone who said, "Lord, Lord" would be saved. But Jesus Himself said that, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." It very much matters that we believe before we confess His name.

Now, it doesn't matter whether we repent before or after we confess, but belief must come before either of those

Those who teach the 4 step plan of salvation 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Get baptized then finally saved after baptism are in contradiction with “confession is made unto salvation.” Step 3 precedes step 4. Water baptism “follows” believing in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-48)

Not at all. Confession is made UNTO salvation, not immediately resulting in salvation. Rom 6:1-4 says nothing about us being united with Christ's death because of our confession. It say we are united with Christ's death in baptism. It says that we are raised from baptism in likeness of His resurrection, not raised from confession of His name.
Again, Eph 2:11-14 says nothing about the Spirit taking action to cut (circumcise) our sin and sinful nature from us when we confess Jesus' name. It says He does that when we are baptized.

Remember Dan, you must be consistent with ALL of Scripture for you doctrine to hold water.

 

[Danthemailman]

You have made this argument many times, and it makes no more sense now then it did before. No, repent and confess are not necessarily separate in time. They can, and should, be done at the same time. When you read Acts, you see that a powerful urgency in placed on action immediately after someone believes the Gsuospel. Why? Because once someone believes the Gospel, they should take action (faith) on that belief, and obey the Gospel so that they can receive salvation.

Let me ask you a question: can someone confess the name of Jesus if they do not believe that He is the Savior God? Does it make any difference to their salvation if they confess His name, before they believe He is who He said He is? No, it makes no difference; they remain lost, because just calling on His name does not save. If it did, then everyone who said, "Lord, Lord" would be saved. But Jesus Himself said that, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." It very much matters that we believe before we confess His name.

Now, it doesn't matter whether we repent before or after we confess, but belief must come before either of those

Not at all. Confession is made UNTO salvation, not immediately resulting in salvation. Rom 6:1-4 says nothing about us being united with Christ's death because of our confession. It say we are united with Christ's death in baptism. It says that we are raised from baptism in likeness of His resurrection, not raised from confession of His name.
Again, Eph 2:11-14 says nothing about the Spirit taking action to cut (circumcise) our sin and sinful nature from us when we confess Jesus' name. It says He does that when we are baptized.

Remember Dan, you must be consistent with ALL of Scripture for you doctrine to hold water.

We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting passages of scripture in an effort to “patch together” a “different” gospel plan of works salvation.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

I’ve heard many of these same arguments from you before so none of them are anything new or enlightening. Your gospel plan culminates in “works salvation” in violation of scripture (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Period.

 

[Brightfame52]

No not at all. I promote what the scriptures teach. Faith according to James and Paul is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says *James 2:13-26; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 11:1-40. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.

According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by genuine faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. Therefore according to the scriptures, we demonstrate our faith by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils and is not saving faith which is why Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them" *Matthew 7:12-23.

Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12).

We must be careful to believe and follow what God's Word says as it is only those who believe and follow that Jesus calls "His sheep" in John 10:26-27 and only those who "do" the will of the father that enter into Gods' kingdom according to Jesus in Matthew 7:21.

Take Care.

Yet the scripture teaches against Salvation by works and teaches its by Grace apart from our works.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yet the scripture teaches against Salvation by works and teaches its by Grace apart from our works.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Yes I already posted on this earlier.

WHAT IS GOD'S GRACE FOR?

God's grace is not for disobedience to the faith. That teaching is not biblical. According to the scriptures God gives us His grace of forgiveness of sin that we receive as a a free gift through faith in the gift of God's dear son Jesus through His sacrifice in paying the penalty of death for our sins *John 3:16 so that we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5 and live in newness of life *Romans 6:1-23.

According to the scriptures God's grace is to teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, so that we can live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. *Titus 2:11-12. Gods' grace therefore does not save us so that we are now free to continue practicing known unrepentant sin. Gods' amazing grace is given to save us from sin. *John 8:31:36; John 17:17; Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9

Some key scriptures worth consideration on the purpose of Grace...

1. Ephesians 2:8-9 [8], For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9], Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2. Romans 1:5 [5], By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.
3. Titus 2:11-12 [11], For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, [12], Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

.................

Note: According to the scriptures, God's grace is given to us so that we can be obedient to the faith teaching us to deny ungodliness and to live godly and righteously in this present world.

As posted earlier, according to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins.

According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law therefore is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Therefore says Jesus you shall know them (who is from God and who is not) by their fruit. *Matthew 7:16-20; John 15:1-6; 1 John 2:3-4.

According to the scriptures no one receives God's Grace if they do not believe and follow God's Word (see John 3:16-21; Hebrews 10:26-31) and the scriptures teach that no one knows God by not believing his Word and doing what God's Word says according to John in 1 John 2:3-4 and James 2:17-26.

Take Care.

 

[Doug Brents]

We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting passages of scripture in an effort to “patch together” a “different” gospel plan of works salvation.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

I’ve heard many of these same arguments from you before so none of them are anything new or enlightening. Your gospel plan culminates in “works salvation” in violation of scripture (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Period.

Compare Rom 4:2-6 with James 2:20-22. Both of them quote the same OT passage, but they make a very different point. Is one wrong and the other right? If so, which one is right? No!! Both are right. It takes action to make our faith real, alive, and of any value to our salvation.

Eph 2:8-9 I have already covered. It cannot be saying that there is no physical action necessary to our receiving salvation, because there are numerous passages that stipulate physical action that leads to salvation (Rom 10:9-10 for example).

Titus 3:5 doesn't say there is nothing we have to do to be saved. It says that God sent Jesus because of His own mercy, not because we were righteous and deserved to be saved. Repentance is not a "righteous" act that deserves salvation. We are already condemned because of our sin. There is no "goodness" that can expunge our guilt and make us right with God. Only His Son's sacrifice on the cross could have done that. But we still must obey Him to receive the benefit of His sacrifice.

2 Tim 1:9 makes my point for me. God's grace through Christ was set out for us before the beginning of time. His grace was for His own purpose, not for our goodness. Yet He set conditions for the reception of His grace, and no one receives His grace who does not meet those conditions.

There are numerous examples of this in the OT. Naaman, the walls of Jericho, the woman who poured out the oil into all the jars she could borrow, etc. They all received a grace that they could not earn, but they had to meet the condition set forth by the "man of God" before they received the blessing. The same is true of us today. God has set out His blessing (salvation), and He has set some conditions for receiving that blessing. Those conditions are not all listed in one place, and they are frequently bundled into "belief" in Christ. But do you believe in Him if you do not obey Him? NO! You must obey Him, because only to those who obey Him is He the author of their salvation (Heb 5:9).

 

[Rapture Bound]

BNR32FAN replied, [post #1282], from thread : "WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST"

"What are your thoughts on 2 Timothy 2:11-13? Is Paul advocating for eternal security or conditional salvation?

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬."

My Reply :

Well, you know that I confidently hold to the OJAJ [Once Justified, Always Justified] position; therefore when considering the meaning of any particular set of scriptures, I [now] approach them as ruling out the possibility of it's meaning pointing to the actual occurrence of any genuine believer forfeiting [losing] their eternal life. [let's be real, this bias holds true for the LOS camp as well]. When I [originally] received eternal life at my new birth experience no such bias existed, my perspective was formed over time from my personal study of the scriptures [ carefully taking into consideration the opposing perspective].

Therefore, please allow me to rephrase your question like this, "Coming from your OJAJ perspective, how do you perceive 2 Timothy 2:11-13?"

You also stated, "Is Paul advocating for eternal security or conditional salvation?"

Keep in mind that when I use the term "the eternal security of the believer", it is not meant to be understood to mean as many use the phrase ... that is, in an exclusive sense, the belief that a genuine believer will never forfeit their salvation. Rather, I use it in a neutral sense; that is, it encompasses the totality of the following questions, "Is a believer's future destiny in Heaven a 'done deal', or will any believer actually lose/forfeit their promised Heavenly inheritance?"; or put slightly differently, "Is the believer's justified status fixed and permanent? ... or is it actually subject to change?"

Therefore, when I refer to those that hold to the belief that no genuine believer will ever lose or forfeit their salvation, I prefer to use the term "OJAJ" [Once Justified, Always Justified]; and when I refer to the camp that asserts that some genuine believers will actually lose or forfeit their salvation, I use the term "LOS" [Loss Of Salvation]. Clearly defining the terms we employ is so important to any type of theological discussion.

2 Timothy 2:11 - "for if we died with him, we will also live with Him"

"for if we died with him" is precisely the idea that runs parallel with the glorious verse I cited at the end of my prior post ... Romans 6:5, [English Standard Version] - "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

"we will also live with Him" - expresses the reality that those who have died with him [died to this present world through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit] receive a new identity or union with Christ [that is, they are placed "in Christ"] ... will experience glorification as viewed in both of it's tenses [presently actuated on this earthly pilgrimage, as well as a future reception of a resurrection body in the likeness of Christ's [Romans 8:9-11].

So, here is another vital truth to be received - if a person has actually been regenerated by the Holy Spirit [and consequently has been placed into the body of Christ through union with Him], he/she will necessarily experience the dual aspects of glorification. Once again we revert back to the key question that needs to be answered deep within every person's soul ... "Have I actually been regenerated by the working of the Holy Spirit?" ... it is not .... "Will I actually lose that eternal life that dwells within me?" or, "Will I cease to exist as a new creature in Christ at some future point in time?"

If a person has genuinely been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they will not live [characteristically] according to the flesh. They have been given eternal life and received, as a result of their new birth, an eternal implantation of that life by that life-giving seed of God (God the Holy Spirit) as clearly revealed in the following scripture :

1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

The germ or seed of the Holy Spirit implanted in the soul abides there as a constant, vital principle, so that he who is born of God cannot habitually become a sinner.

2 Timothy 2:12-13,"If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”

Therefore, since I'm convinced that my above perspective of verse 11 is 'rock-solid', I interpret it's subsequent verses in a manner that remains consistent with my initial premise. In a nutshell, I would simply summarize my position concerning these verses as following ... every genuine believer will suffer [as a result of being 'in Christ'], they will reign with Him, they will not deny Him, the faith that they have committed unto Him [at conversion] will never be extinguished, and as a result, will not be denied by Christ on Judgment Day.

To deny this interpretation of verses 12 and 13 is to deny the truths claims I made concerning verse 11. Any other rendering would result in setting verse 11 in opposition to verses 12 and 13. And, IMHO, I simply view my statements concerning verse 11 as being "bullet-proof"... I've yet to see any arguments that have successfully shot any holes in my verse 11 premise [although there will apparently always be those who beg to differ].

The disagreement between my [OJAJ] view and the opposing view essentially centers upon another set of questions arising from [the above] remaining two verses:

"Are these qualities [of endurance and fidelity] ones that will be inevitably produced as a by-product or effect of a person's regeneration? [as the OJAJ camp asserts] ... or, will some genuinely regenerated persons fail to meet these stated conditions?"...[as the LOS camp affirms].

How a person views verses 12 and 13 is directly contingent upon what position they take on the above questions [whether they realize it or not]. As a person who holds to "the Preservation of the Saints" [along with some key Molinist principles], I certainly do not deny that there is a conditional element in this equation [an "if" is actually an "if"] I simply view that conditionality through a different lens than those of the LOS persuasion. Bottom line, I assert that a believer's endurance/perseverance is much better understood as being more a promise than a condition or requirement.

(1) I would agree that there are many scriptures revealing the necessity of a true believer's persevering by faith in order to receive their heavenly inheritance. (John 15:6; Heb.12:14-15, 10:36; 1 Tim.4:16; and many more).

(2) The scriptures also supply compelling evidence for the assertion that all genuine believers will persevere by means of God's keeping or preserving power. (1 Peter 1:3-6; Phil.1:6; John 6:37-40; 2 Tim.1:12; and many more).

A Critical Concept to Embrace :

So, what are we to do with [the above] dual truth statements? Simply accept both of them! Why would any person decide to reject either one of these clear-cut, scriptural truth claims? I believe it is a huge mistake to deny either of these statements; it is the equivalent of setting scripture against scripture, rather than reconciling them. It is not those who hold to the doctrine of the preservation of the saints who are unwilling to accept both truths, it is those who believe that believe a person cannot have assurance of their heavenly inheritance (i.e.- those who believe that some of the elect will forfeit their eternal salvation). This scenario should not be viewed as an "either/or", but rather "both/and."

God doesn't simply require holiness; He promises it to all of His sons and daughters :

(1) We must persevere in faith to enter heaven (2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in faith.

Jude 1:1-2,"Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:"

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24," Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."